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Mahk
Aug 18th, 2008, 06:19 PM
I can't seem to access the "animal free shopper list" of the vegan society, even though I think I am registered, perhaps because I have an out of country IP address? :confused: What does it currently say, I wonder?

starlight
Aug 18th, 2008, 06:43 PM
Hi all

does anyone know if Leffe is vegan or not?

scoultas
Aug 19th, 2008, 05:48 PM
I noticed the new design bottles of Weston's don't say vegan anymore. This was on a premium organic bottle. Just says suitable for vegetarians and coeliacs.

I take it they are still vegan, though?


I emailed Westons on Sunday, they replied today:


Many thanks for your enquiry.

Our products are suitable for Vegetarians & Coeliacs.

Our products are no longer suitable for vegans due to the origin of the lactic acid used during fermentation.


Kind regards

Lesley

Risker
Aug 19th, 2008, 05:52 PM
Ugh...

Mr Flibble
Aug 19th, 2008, 05:53 PM
bastards!

Poor Frosty :(

Gorilla
Aug 19th, 2008, 07:56 PM
i'm really not happy about this. they're getting a strongly-worded email from me :mad:

Mahk
Aug 19th, 2008, 08:04 PM
I'm not in the UK but I would suggest people ask in their emails what they derive there lactic acid from or who is their supplier of lactic acid so we can ask the actual producer directly.

To the best of my knowledge there are no lactic acid manufacturers in existence that use milk as their source. Is it possible? Sure, just like milk can be used as the source ingredient to make water. No one does it that way though; it would be extremely expensive! Lactic acid is made by fermentation of corn, dextrose, sugar [bone char possibility for some countries I suppose], beet sugar or tapioca, according to my sources.

I think what we have here is an example of a non-food-scientist answering the question "Where does lactic acid come from"? All s/he has is a high school education and they remember "lact" means "milk". End of story.

toffo
Aug 19th, 2008, 08:10 PM
I'm not in the UK but I would suggest people ask in their emails what they derive there lactic acid from or who is their supplier of lactic acid so we can ask the actual producer directly.

To the best of my knowledge there are no lactic acid manufacturers in existence that use milk as their source. Is it possible? Sure, just like milk can be used as the source ingredient to make water. No one does it that way though; it would be extremely expensive!

I think what we have here is an example of a non-food-scientist answering the question "Where does lactic acid come from"? All s/he has is a high school education and they remember "lact" means "milk". End of story.

Mahk i do hope that you are right about this, it just seems so strange to me that this is possible. I purchased a bottle of Westons premium organic cider two days ago and it still said suitable for vegans on the bottle.
I only live 3 miles away from their cider plant so next time i pass i might go in and ask some questions!

Gorilla
Aug 19th, 2008, 08:12 PM
the wording "Our products are no longer suitable for vegans due to the origin of the lactic acid used during fermentation" suggests that they are aware that there could be more than one origin of lactic acid, and that the one they're using is not vegan. i hope i'm wrong...

Mahk
Aug 19th, 2008, 08:22 PM
Or maybe they are actually saying, "We have no idea and don't care to research it for you." That would be typical of a US company when asked such a question. am an American. ;)]

Purac (http://www.purac.com/purac_com/3c9349f68fe8749f83dd5aa2c7a04ea5.php#faq3) is the world's largest producer of lactic acid. From their FAQ page:

3. How is lactic acid produced and is it related to milk?

PURAC L(+)-lactic acid and lactates are 100% natural products, with carbohydrates (such as beet sugar) as their raw material. The production process (fermentation with the aid of bacteria) is also natural. In addition to L(+)-natural lactic acid, there is also so-called synthetic lactic acid available on the market. This product is less suitable for use in cosmetic formulations because it triggers irritation and is only 50% active. If lactic acid or lactates are to be used in cosmetic products, always insist on natural L(+)-lactic acid!

Because lactic acid (officially known as 2-hydroxy propionic acid) was first discovered in 1780 by the Swedish chemist Scheele in a sample of spoiled milk, it was named lactic acid. There is no other relation to milk and PURAC L(+)-lactic acid and lactates (sodium and potassium lactate) are clear, water white and low-viscous liquids with a mild odor. All other mineral salts are powders. [emphasis mine]

I assume no one here in the forum can find a single lactic acid manufacturer who publicly states "We use milk as our source material". It's only hypothetical.

toffo
Aug 20th, 2008, 05:11 PM
I emailed westons asking specific questions about the lactic acid.
I received this somewhat confused reply:

Hi

We are reconsidering our position as some large customers have asked us to state that the cider is not suitable for vegans due to the use of lactic acid in the fermentation process.

Our supplier of lactic acid has confirmed that the product is suitable for vegans.

Whilst we are reviewing this situation we felt it would be better to remove the statement from the bottles and website.

Kind regards

Lesley

It seems that their large customers ie. the supermarkets just told them to remove the vegan labelling even thought the the lactic acid is not a problem. Just shows the power of the large supermarkets.
So, surely contrary to earlier emails posted in this thread their cider is still vegan.

gogs67
Aug 20th, 2008, 05:25 PM
I emailed westons asking specific questions about the lactic acid.
I received this somewhat confused reply:

Hi

We are reconsidering our position as some large customers have asked us to state that the cider is not suitable for vegans due to the use of lactic acid in the fermentation process.

Our supplier of lactic acid has confirmed that the product is suitable for vegans.

Whilst we are reviewing this situation we felt it would be better to remove the statement from the bottles and website.

Kind regards

Lesley

It seems that their large customers ie. the supermarkets just told them to remove the vegan labelling even thought the the lactic acid is not a problem. Just shows the power of the large supermarkets.
So, surely contrary to earlier emails posted in this thread their cider is still vegan.


It seems that some vegans may have been getting onto their 'large customers' without checking their facts properly!;)

Mahk
Aug 20th, 2008, 05:46 PM
Another possibility is either the supermarket(s) or they themselves are tired of the constant onslaught of emails which read, to paraphrase:
"How dare you label your product as "vegan" when you clearly include lactic acid in the ingredients. Don't you know that lactic acid comes from milk, and vegans don't consume milk? I'm mad at you, will boycott you, and will tell all my friends to do so as well."

Of course this is not true, lactic acid doesn't come from milk, but 99% of the general population doesn't know this. This could so easily be remedied by the inclusion of "(vegetable source)" immediately after the "lactic acid" listing in their ingredients list. Perhaps someone might suggest this to them. All parties would benefit: Westons, the supermarkets, the lay public that doesn't know where lactic acid comes from, their customer relations staff, and finally us vegans. It is a win-win scenario.

toffo
Aug 20th, 2008, 05:51 PM
Another possibility is either the supermarket(s) or they themselves are tired of the constant onslaught of emails which read, to paraphrase:
"How dare you label your product as "vegan" when you clearly include lactic acid in the ingredients. Don't you know that lactic acid comes from milk, and vegans don't consume milk? I'm mad at you, will boycott you, and will tell all my friends to do so as well."

Of course this is not true, lactic acid doesn't come from milk, but 99% of the general population doesn't know this. This could so easily be remedied by the inclusion of "(vegetable source)" immediately after the "lactic acid" listing in their ingredients list. Perhaps someone might suggest this to them. All parties would benefit: Westons, the supermarkets, the lay public that doesn't know where lactic acid comes from, their customer relations staff, and finally us vegans. It is a win-win scenario.

There is no ingredients list on the labels, and lactic acid is not mentioned at all.

Mahk
Aug 20th, 2008, 06:02 PM
OK, but clearly some people, including their "large customers" are privy to this information though:

"We are reconsidering our position as some large customers have asked us to state that the cider is not suitable for vegans due to the use of lactic acid in the fermentation process." [emphasis mine]

scoultas
Aug 20th, 2008, 06:20 PM
I emailed westons asking specific questions about the lactic acid.
I received this somewhat confused reply:

Hi

We are reconsidering our position as some large customers have asked us to state that the cider is not suitable for vegans due to the use of lactic acid in the fermentation process.

Our supplier of lactic acid has confirmed that the product is suitable for vegans.

Whilst we are reviewing this situation we felt it would be better to remove the statement from the bottles and website.

Kind regards

Lesley

It seems that their large customers ie. the supermarkets just told them to remove the vegan labelling even thought the the lactic acid is not a problem. Just shows the power of the large supermarkets.
So, surely contrary to earlier emails posted in this thread their cider is still vegan.

Just got exactly the same email response myself, after I emailed them to ask exactly why they chose to change the lactic acid source from that used previously.

How frustrating!

So there's no change, it should still be just as vegan as it ever was, but the labelling has gone. :rollseyes_ani:

gogs67
Aug 20th, 2008, 06:40 PM
Another possibility is either the supermarket(s) or they themselves are tired of the constant onslaught of emails which read, to paraphrase:
"How dare you label your product as "vegan" when you clearly include lactic acid in the ingredients. Don't you know that lactic acid comes from milk, and vegans don't consume milk? I'm mad at you, will boycott you, and will tell all my friends to do so as well."

.
That was my point!:D

sandra
Aug 20th, 2008, 07:40 PM
It would put your head away! :(

I love Weston's cider and just bought large quantities of the older vintage cider because I thought the new stuff wasn't vegan anymore.
Ah well, I'll just have to drink this stuff quicker than I thought now as I will need to buy more of the new stuff when it comes out. :)

Mahk
Aug 20th, 2008, 08:27 PM
That was my point!:D

Sorry if I was being repetitious there, gogs. To tell you the truth your expression "to get onto" in this sentence went right over my head [eluded me] :


It seems that some vegans may have been getting onto their 'large customers' without checking their facts properly!;)

We don't use this expression in the States so I don't know what it means. I tried to look it up in an on-line dictionary of idioms and slang expressions to no avail. From the context I can only guess it means "to challenge", ""to complain", or "to harass".

I also have no clue (don't understand) what Sandra means by:

"It would put your head away! :( "

I can tell it is something negative only due to the inclusion of the frown emoticon at the end but otherwise I don't understand her meaning. Would someone please explain to this ignorant Yank (me) what is meant by these two expressions? Also can other things than "heads" be "put away" or it it used exclusively for heads.

Thanks.

P.S. To all, not specifically gogs: I worry the differences in some of our slang words, idioms, and expressions has caused some animosity and misinterpretations in some of our threads. :o [not this one though]

Gorilla
Aug 20th, 2008, 08:55 PM
don't worry Mahk! i think gogs is indeed meaning some people may have been complaining to the large customers. i've never heard Sandra's expression before but i assume she means it's enough to make you upset, or words to that effect. :)

i got the very same email from Westons too. i don't understand why their 'large customers' would tell them to remove the vegan labelling when it wasn't common knowledge that lactic acid was used in the production at all. :confused:

sandra
Aug 20th, 2008, 10:31 PM
Sorry Mahk...........'Put your head away' is a Northern Irish saying meaning........it would put you mad..........do your head in..........confuse you..........etc.
I was referring to the fact that even when we do try and contact manufacturers about ingredients etc we still can't be sure they give us the correct information!
We just have to do as best we can in this world as it is at the moment! :)

Cumin
Aug 21st, 2008, 03:37 PM
Update to my previous posts about Bulmers brands...

I finally got some more clarification from Scottish & Newcastle.
Woodpecker and Scrumpy Jack are specifically english ciders and are therefore made only in Herefordshire at the Bulmers plant.
This means that they can both be relied up as being vegan ! :D
The same still cannot be said for Bulmers & Strongbow (as I said before):mad:

Mahk
Aug 21st, 2008, 04:32 PM
'Put your head away' is a Northern Irish saying meaning........it would put you mad..........do your head in..........confuse you..........etc.

Thanks Sandra (and Gorilla) for the explanations. What's funny is 2 of the 3 translations also make no sense in "American English":D For "it would put you mad" we'd perhaps say "put you in a bad mood" or "make you mad". "Do your head in" has no meaning or translation I can think of but luckily "confuse you" is easily understood by us.


This means that they can both be relied up as being vegan !

"Relied up" isn't used here either, but I get the meaning.:)

Frosty
Aug 21st, 2008, 04:34 PM
Cheers Cumin :) I'll be on the Scrumpyliscious stuff from now on then. It's the same price as 'bow, but 0.8% stronger. Cool!

Stu
Aug 21st, 2008, 09:49 PM
Woodpecker and Scrumpy Jack are specifically english ciders and are therefore made only in Herefordshire at the Bulmers plant.
This means that they can both be relied up as being vegan ! :D

You da man.

Nice work, Cumipopples!