OCD - Obsessive Compulsive Disorder

[Cymraes]

I suffer from OCD (Obsessive Compulsive Disorder) and find it hard to know when simply being very strict about my veganism spills over into obsessive behaviour. For instance, I won't kiss my boyfriend if he's been eating meat (until he brushes his teeth, or something along those lines to "decontaminate", as it were) and to me, that's quite normal. I also won't hold his hands (until he's washed them) if he's handled anything that contains meat (e.g. a sandwich), which, again, might sound a bit extreme, but is kind of understandable perhaps...

But then it goes much, much further. For example, I am so fearful of contamination from animal products that I find it difficult to touch anything (door-handles, taps etc.) in a kitchen, or sometimes even a whole house, where people cook and eat meat. Eating at the same time, or in the same environment, as meat-eaters is a minefield as I'm scared to touch things (menus, plates, salt & pepper mills, etc.) they might have touched after having come into contact with animal fat (it's the grease that gets to me as it's so easily transfered from one surface to another). If I do, I have to wash. And wash.

It gets ridiculous sometimes, and I know that no-one can possibly be expected to live their life this way and that my veganism has been hijacked by my OCD, but I just don't know what's "normal". I don't really know many vegans - none I could observe to see how they deal with the animal contamination thing. The list of things I avoid touching, and that send me washing if I do come into contact with them (or anything else that might have had contact with them), is endless - I'm sure you can imagine how the "chain of contact" (and the resultant urge to wash) grows as you get more and more obsessive.

I know it may sound crazy, but there is a logic, albeit extreme, to the whole thing. I'm sure I can't be the only one here to experience this. I could really do with some help if it's out there because, whilst it's one thing to make yourself miserable in this way, it becomes altogether more destructive when (inevitably) you start placing unreasonable demands on those around you.

[clair]

hello there,

i can understand that there might be a cross over between your OCD and being vegan. OCD likes to latch on to things - normally like security or health issues doesnt it?

i suffered from ocd for a bout 4 years some while ago now. there seems to be three issues here
1 you are vegan
2 you suffer from OCD
3 you have your own personal preferances concerning how you are touched ie not my meaty hands etc.

your prefernaces could be a little extreme without being ocd. you will know.

i reackon try to think about the reason you are behaving in a certain way. for example, why don't you want to touch door handles?

since touching door handles is unlikely to contribute to the welfare and treatment of animals (if this be your reason for being vegan) i reackon its unlikey that its the vegan thing and more likely here to be the ocd thing here.

there are a lot of very good reasons to be vegan.

ocd interests me a lot and i certainly understand the hold it can have but what are the reasons we need to be held in the hands of ocd? i know there are reasons but for me it was important to question the validity of these reasons. whether we really wanted to ruled by them or not. like the way we question to be vegan or not and we might decide that yes, there are good reasons and it is worth being adopting veganism as our way of being.

clair

[aubergine]

Cymraes - I'm very similar tou you I think. I get very obsessive about cleanliness, because I do feel that the outside world is contaminated. I live in an omni household where they think it's acceptible to handle raw chicken, and then take a break to empty the dishwasher without washing their hands first. Why shouldn't I want to wash that plate before using it? It's the same with cutlery and so on, and when I go out to eat I always make sure I've washed before eating with my hands.

I've had OCDs for years and am much better now, but I don't consider food hygiene to come under that umbrella. As far as I'm concerned the world is dirty, and after having severe food poisining for nine months I think it's my right to feel that way. Modern food is dirtier than it's ever been because of factory production. Have you read fast food nation by the way? Shocking stuff. I now don't get a dodgy stomach, but used to all the time even after I went Vegan (although that helped with a lot of it).

I hope you get your OCD sorted. I think sometimes it helps to group certain behavioral aspects into genuine issues and irrational issues though. You are perfectly free to disagree with my take on things.

[Cymraes]

Thank you so much Clair and Vegandrummersam for your kind, helpful replies.

I know I have a lot of work to do to recognise where and why the OCD is taking over and to fight it. I'm not great with middle ground (as you might have guessed!) but I suppose it's a question of accepting (and acting on) the fact that that no-one can be, or is expected to be, perfect. Sadly, we live in a non-vegan world and physical contact with animal products in one way or another is inevitable, it's just hard to shake the idea that by not obsessively avoiding or eliminating any trace of this contact I am being lazy and a "bad vegan". I also know this is ludicrous - I would never dream of applying these unforgiving, unachievable standards to anyone else's life, so I guess it's all tied in with boring old "self-esteem issues". How very dull...

But I'm hoping things will get better soon - I think I've nosedived a bit recently because I've just come off antidepressants after 14 years, and haven't been on the herbal alternatives long enough for them to have kicked in yet... Fingers crossed!

Thanks again x

[John]

I know what you are talking about. I'm always disgusted when I'm at a bar and I touch something like a menu that is slimey with grease. I was also quite steamed when someone (I don't know who) put greasy chicken finger stains on the back of my favorite jacket. I've heard of people demanding that their romantic companions wash out their mouths before kissing but I've never had the nerve to ask a girl to go brush her teeth (although I would like to).

But really, aside from the risk of getting a disease, there is no harm in touching dead animal parts. Good luck with your condition.

[cedarblue]

i dont think i suffer from ocd but i definately have little 'things' that are acceptable or unnacceptable to me - but they are not connected to veganism, unless it is a food/kitchen/contamination thing.

when i am out and go up or down a stairwell in a multistorey carpark, my daughter laughs when i wont touch the door handle to open it. ugh ugh ugh. i either try and catch it open if someone else has just gone through or i pull my sleeve down to cover my hand and use it like a glove to open the door. someone could just have urinated on the stairs (we all know it happens) and then opened that door!!!!!!!!:eek: :eek: :eek: :mad: :mad:

[PygmyGoat]

I'm definitely a bit obsessive but I don't mind! :D . I won't leave the house in the morning unless I've had a shower. My curtains have to be drawn symetrically, and I go mad if anyone else uses my pillows :o .
I wash my hands a LOT, especially when handling any food, and I'm always straightening my eye glasses because they look wonky to me! :D .

I think if you're not careful Veganism can make you feel a bit OCD-ish, though conversely, maybe it helps somewhat to be a little obsessive when you're a Vegan!. I'm not much help, am I? :p . Just try not to dwell on your obsessions otherwise you will become obsessed with worrying about your habits.

[Kiran]

Hi,

Dealing with partners is a difficult thing. You will need to discuss this with your partner and he must not be offended. Rather than taking action directly, its better for you discuss this with your boyfriend. I'm sure talking will do the trick and he will know what you expect out of him. If he truly loves you, he will acknowledge and respect your sensible demands. He may not become a vegan, but he will change his habits to suit you, when he is around you.

I also worry a lot about cross contamination in restaurants, and I think this worry is genuine. I don't mind eating at places that cook meat, but I need an assurance that my food is cooked separate. My office colleagues are very cooperative and they know that they must not use the same tea-spoon which was used to stir their drinks. They know I am fussy and they respect my life-style.

I think I am similar to you but may not be of your magnitude. I don't necessarily say its a bad thing. I have a standard set of must-do tasks to maintain my surroundings and to strictly follow my veganism. My small home is completely vegan and I won't permit anything non-vegan in. A friend of mine stayed with me for a few days and she is vegetarian. I allowed her Yogurt and milk. But I was always aware of the utensils being used to cook and I do tend to be fussy. She has moved out now and my place is 100% vegan.

I think many vegans are fussy. There is nothing wrong with that.

[RedWellies]

when i am out and go up or down a stairwell in a multistorey carpark, i wont touch the door handle to open it. ugh ugh ugh.

I laughed so much at that...because I'm exactly the same!! Why do people pee in multistory car parks???

As for OCD...I think we all have our little ways which would be strange to other people (I won't walk on drain covers...you never know if one day it might break!). It's when these things take over your life that they can cause you trouble. I watched an amazing program on TV about a group of OCD sufferers and the help they received to combat their problems. Low self esteem was a common complaint.

Did anyone see As Good as it Gets with Jack Nicholson? Great film!

Don't put so much pressure on yourself, Cymraes. Not wanting to kiss a meaty mouth is perfectly acceptable. I hope you find that middle ground. Good luck!

[Kiran]

iwhen i am out and go up or down a stairwell in a multistorey carpark, my daughter laughs when i wont touch the door handle to open it. ugh ugh ugh.

Heh??:rolleyes: What about money?? You never know what your £ 20 note has been through. Someone might have rolled it to clean their ears, or handled it after being to the toilet and not washed their hands.

Hang on......... is that a booger???? ********** reaches for the wallet *********:p

[DancingWillow]

Heh??:rolleyes: What about money?? You never know what your £ 20 note has been through. Someone might have rolled it to clean their ears, or handled it after being to the toilet and not washed their hands.


Actually that's one of my OCD things...I don't like touching cash. Ah, the beauty (and cleanliness) of credit cards and check cards :D

And I'm quite OCD about door handles and door knobs, too, cedarblue and RedWellies.

There's a TV show in the US called "Monk". It's about a detective with OCD. I LOOOOOVE it! It makes me laugh so hard, 'cause it reminds me of myself so much! (though thankfully, I'm not quite that extreme)

[Kiran]

Actually that's one of my OCD things...I don't like touching cash. From Find articles.com


How cruddy is our cash? At random, two $20 bills, one $1 bill, and a quarter were plucked from circulation in New York and checked for germs by a microbiology lab.

Samples were taken from each note and coin by rubbing with a large, moistened cotton swab. Each sample was then stroked onto a small plastic plate containing jellylike agar enriched with blood and other nutrients. The plates were incubated at body temperature for 48 hours. They all grew grayish specks or circles, signaling small colonies of bacteria.

Five types of bacteria were identified: spherical coagulase-negative staphylococci and micrococci; the more rodlike diphtheroids; propionibacteria (a group that includes Propionibacterium acnes, the cause of acne in oily areas); and various species of bacilli. Small bills that get traded a lot are invariably the dirtiest. Our tired-looking single produced the most microbes--all five of the varieties identified. The quarter yielded the least: only two. "Anything that's very hard and dry isn't terribly hospitable to bacteria," according to Joanne Bartkus, a microbiologist with the 3M Company. "And many metals have antibacterial activity," she adds.


I also have the cash-machine phobia. :rolleyes: After entering the pin number, I usually like to wipe my hand with a tissue. Those buttons contain nasty things on them. Yuk!!

[lavender]

ooh I never considered the cash machine buttons before... thats another to add to my list :p

I hate touching door handles and also pull my coat over my hand. Hand rails on stairs - a funny one was in a castle and the stairs were spiral , steep and had no hand rail only this big old rope threaded through, that rope was almost black with grubby sweaty hands , I nearly broke my neck avoiding holding onto it! Public loo hand dryers - ewwwwwww - I have to hit the button with my elbow, sheesh actually when I think about it I have loads.:o

'As good as it gets' is an awesome film :) redwellies.

I was getting into a major panic a month or so back Cymraes because my Omni motherinlaw was coming to stay and look after my vegan kids, I was getting really anxious about her bringing meat products into my house and putting them in the fridge/on plates/in pans, I was seriously stressing about the whole thing. In the end I explained to her, and she admitted she was really stressing about feeding the children and what was okay and what wasnt etc, whether I would mind Milk in the fridge etc etc. we worked it out in the end, but I can really see where you are coming from, I actually dont feel you are being excessive. Im careful when I go to supermarkets about contamination, like the onimous looking wet patch on the conveyer belt that could possible be drippings from flesh. I have to change aisles. I hope you feel better about things. I think that an awful lot of us have these perfectly rational fears about things and like you say, its recognising when for us personally things are getting out of control. Good luck.

[mango]

I don't like to touch animal products or anything that has touched them. I call it sensitivity. I have a thing about 'clean dirt' and 'dirty dirt'. Clean dirt is stuff like forest soil, lichen, moss, the stuff you get all over you in the woods. I'm happy to touch it, eat it, and have it in open cuts. Also included is vegan compost and soil from veganic allotments (well I wouldn't eat the compost but I do eat the soil!). Dirty dirt is anything to do with animal products or chemicals, and dirt in the city which probably contains chemicals, dog shit, rotten animal products, unhealthy people's piss, etc.

Do you know orthodox Jews have the idea of a 'fence round the law', which is very detailed laws about all aspects of behaviour to make sure there is no chance whatever of breaking the big laws.

[cedarblue]

rats, i have some more things to think about with dirt on now...cash..cash machines.

i dont like touching escalator or stair handrails either!! :o

[sandra]

Hi Cymraes, As I have mentioned on this forum before, I suffer from OCD so I know exactly how you feel. My son also suffers from it since the age of 5yrs, which leads me to believe it must be genetic. It is not something we can help or prevent but we can control it instead of it controlling us.
Have you always sufferred from OCD or is it something that has just started since being vegan?
I suspect you were sufferring from OCD before you were vegan. Me, being vegan hasn't influenced my OCD.It's just that the illness concentrates on fear, and anything you fear takes on a new meaning. Please, don't be afraid, the two are not connected in the slightest.
Why did you stop your anti-depressants? My son is on them and has been for around 10 years. Were they not helping you?
Try to concentrate on beating the OCD, I have improved over the years and hope my son will too, but don't feel it has anything to do with being vegan. The OCD has just latched onto the fact that you are vegan, it has given you something else to obsess about. Believe me I do know what you are going through, I wish I could help in a more practical way other than my words on the forum, but I really wish you all the best and hope better things are ahead for you. :)

[Cymraes]

How fantastic! Not only are people discussing a subject I've brought up, but I'm being offered so much support and goodwill... I really am overwhelmed, moved, and grateful, particularly as it's a subject that causes me a lot of anguish and that I find incredibly difficult to discuss. Thank you, everyone.

Sandra - what a lovely message...thank you! In answer to your question, I've had OCD all my life, mainly centred around contamination issues and washing -I suppose becoming vegan 5 years ago offered perfect fuel for its fire, so to speak...As if I wasn't obsessing enough already! I hate it so, so much, and wouldn't wish this illness on my worst enemy - it has taken over and ruined my life several times over the years. Anyway, as I mentioned, I very recently came off antidepressants and, from feeling so much more relaxed and in control than ever before, I have just been smacked in the face with a frightening reminder of the grip of OCD. I came off the tablets because, after spending the past 14 years - I'm 30, so all of my adult life - on them, I wanted to know who I was without them. I've just assumed that my brain chemistry is flawed and I've needed them in order, essentially, to stay alive, and I'm not ruling out the possibility that this is the case, but I do want to know if there is another way. I've been seeing a wonderful counsellor for a few months and recently reached a point where, at the risk of sounding pretentious, I had put a lot of the past to bed and was ready to start living my life at last. I think antidepressants can dull your senses a bit - I guess it's their job, really! - and I'm pretty certain they've dulled my memory too, so I guess I just want to see if I can live life without that dullness... Also, as a vegan, I feel terrible taking pharmaceutical, animal tested, probably animal product-filled drugs - it's a difficult issue that tears me apart, as I also take medication for an underactive thyroid - a condition that needs life-long medication - but that's another issue for another thread! Now I'm just praying that the St John's Wort kicks in, and soon!
I wish you and your son all the very best and all the strength in the world to fight this condition and let it know who's boss!

Mango - Yes! I know exactly what you mean about "clean dirt" and "dirty dirt".

Aaaarrgh! Can't even read the banknote thingy! I kind of got over that one a
while ago and I'm not going back!! So, fingers in ears, la la la la la....

Sorry - another essay...

[sandra]

Hi Cymraes, it was lovely to hear from you again. I know just what you mean about wanting to live without antidepressants! My son has cut down his to 1 a day, and we hope in the near future to stop them and see how he is without them.
They really do alter your mind and personality. You sound very positive and I really think you can beat it eventually.
You have good days and bad days, and hopefully you will start to have more good than bad ones. I feel it helps to talk with others about it, but if I was to start here to tell you all my troubles we would be here all day! :)
Once again all the very best, and hope to hear from you more on the forum. :)

[cedarblue]

cymraes, i hope you dont think i was making light of you in any way. my little issues are just that, i dont think they are ocd...good luck to you and any others with the real thing... :)

[sandra]

Cedarblue, sometimes it's better to have a sense of humour, I think it helps! Infact me and my son always try to have a laugh at ourselves, it's what keeps us going! :)
Like if I stand for too long in the kitchen at night checking that I have turned the cooker off my son will say, 'Oh come on, what's the worse that can happen? The house will just burn down!' I know it isn't a subject to joke about but it helps us cope. :)

[Jannan]

I'm pretty sure I have Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, too. It's somewhat difficult to deal with. And it doesn't my veganism any easier.

[Cymraes]

Hello!
Cedarblue - No offence taken whatsoever!! As Sandra said, you really have to laugh at these things! I mean, for god's sake, what on earth are we DOING???!!! Perspective, please!!! I think that's the most frustrating thing of all - knowing how absurd it all is in the grand scheme of things, but not being able to help it... Aaaaargh!
I'm with you on the handrail thing, by the way, but do my best to challenge the eeeewww factor when I can, or it all gets out of hand!

Thank you again lovely Sandra! Wishing you and your son the very best of luck as he weans himself off the tablets. Just remember that if it doesn't work, it's not a failure in any shape or form - some of us are just built a little differently, with bodies that need a little help to make the substances that stop us feeling down, that's all.

Good lord, listen to me all positive and upbeat...anyone would think I was on pills...!

[Cymraes]

Hiya Jannan,
You're right - it makes everything ten times more difficult when you're constantly obsessing about where your food's been, who might have touched it, what might have touched it, what might have touched your plate, your cutlery, blah blah blah.....

Listen to this for ridiculous... I've had a traumatic day and a half since I discovered that the cheese my housemate had in the fridge (no meat allowed in the house, but I'm meeting him halfway with dairy) had no "Suitable for Vegetarians" mark on it and therefore might well contain rennet (extract of calf's stomach - delightful). So, I've been fighting the overwhelming urge to bleach the whole kitchen, because I know it would be an outrageous overreaction that, as well as causing me distress (both because it's mentally, physically and emotionally exhausting, and because I know it's insane), would just open a whole new can of worms, and strengthen the OCD - feed it and it grows. Plus I would be destroying the planet (the bleach is, however, from the Co-op and BUAV approved:o ).

Anyway, bless him, he's now binned the cheese after seeing my distress, and I've kind of settled with wiping some surfaces (disposable wipes - so awful, I know, but when I'm in that state I just want rid) that he may have touched after he'd handled the cheese, although I'm still anxious about it having contaminated my kitchen... But that's CRAZY! I can't possibly live in the real world like this...It's not like I was going to eat the stuff, or lick the potentially contaminated fridge handle, for god's sake... It's so FRUSTRATING!!!
So, I'm working on my thought processes...

[Cymraes]

Seriously, though....

CBT/ Exposure Therapy really works - try to find out if you have access to this treatment. It's scary but effective, and can change your life remarkably quickly. Basically, you are exposed to the things that terrify you, and you monitor your anxiety levels, on a scale of 1-100. The initial exposure usually sends the panic levels up towards 100, but if you stay in the situation and don't resort to carrying out the compulsive part of the illness, within a few minutes the anxiety ALWAYS comes down - your body can only maintain it for a relatively short period of time. It works for people with phobias too (same kind of thing really) - I've seen a couple of documentaries about it and it is quite amazing.

I've had this treatment in the past, and clearly need to practice the techniques again now, although I do wonder whether, since the OCD is now also connected with vegan issues, it won't be such a straightforward process. Hmmm... More thinking to be done...

Anyway, hope that helps a bit x

[PygmyGoat]

I can understand the Cheese thing. I even have a seperate fridge in my kitchen so that my partner can store any non-Vegan items away from my stuff :o .

Also, I am overboard on hand-washing. Recently I was at a friends' house. We were petting her Cats, and then she offered me some cake. She cut it and started eating some and it was as much as I could do not scream at her. Ugh - please wash your hands before handling food!!! :eek: .