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forge
Nov 24th, 2006, 11:23 PM
I am hoping that by joining this forum I can get some advise on a tricky question I have.
It is claimed that a vegetarian or vegan diet is more environmentally friendly than a meat based diet. However, one of the primary principles of sustainability is producing goods and services as locally as possible, but a vegan diet is heavily dependent on imported foods. Many of the staples of a vegan diet cannot be grown in Britain (or anywhere with a similar climate) such as Soya beans, lentils and other legumes, rice and all but a few nuts and fruits. It is my understanding that a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet would be impossible to grow in Britain, making it un-sustainable due to its dependency on imported foods. By contrast a traditional diet, which includes meat and other animal products, can be grown on a local scale in Britain following tried and tested practises.
Any comments, advice or opinions on what, to me, seems to be quite a complex subject would be welcome.

forge.

Risker
Nov 25th, 2006, 12:08 AM
Anything that can be grown elsewhere can also be grown in Britain.

mrknifey87
Nov 25th, 2006, 12:10 AM
This really complicated a paper I did recently about veganism and sustainability. What the issue needs are just some good solid statistics (which I don't have). For the record I think that a free-range, organic meat diet is also unsustainable for economic (can you afford that $6-per-pound-goodness?) and ecological (it takes a hell of a lot of land) reasons, especially given the kind of population you would have to hypothetically feed in this manner if the idea took off. So for practical purposes I think you should look primarily at factory farming vs. imported vegan goods. According to Dr. David Pimentel, the energy input-to-output for an intensively reared cow is 54:1. That is super duper inefficient - BTW, I'm not even sure if this includes the amount of water and energy used to grow all the grain before it goes into its rumen to be grumbled about. On the other hand, for an import item you've got to remember that thousands of apples are coming in that one truck or boat from their point of origin. So it really may be that importing all those apples may consume *less* energy than that intensively reared cow, especially if they're organic because according to a paper (I can find it if you want it), organic farms use approximately 30% less fossil fuels than a conventional farm.

Of course, this can also bode poorly for a farmer's market setup too. Having a hundred people drive ten miles to their farmer's market to buy veggies can be just as wasteful as having one truck haul produce several hundred miles to the supermarket. If you come across any good data comparisons for this, let us know!

edit: And I'm pretty sure you could grow all the fundaments of a vegetarian diet in britain, just perhaps not vegan. A lot of the imported foods you could probably replace nutritionally with someone locally available. The question is: is this a variety in your diet you could stomach in your diet for a long time? Although I'm not for Britain - maybe it is a barren industrial wasteland like our government tells us.

Tigerlily
Nov 25th, 2006, 12:12 AM
Anything that can be grown elsewhere can also be grown in Britain.

Oranges? Mangos? Avocados? Kiwis? :confused:

mrknifey87
Nov 25th, 2006, 12:17 AM
Anything that can be grown elsewhere can also be grown in Britain.

I think the inability to grow healthy produce in many parts of the world is a good argument for why veganism isn't and shouldn't be a universal philosophy. I'll never put meat or dairy on my plate in America, but if I had to venture to some remote region in Africa I wouldn't have a problem with eating whatever was available. Although I wouldn't ever venture out of the vegan practicality zone without a very good reason for doing so.

Risker
Nov 25th, 2006, 12:23 AM
Oranges? Mangos? Avocados? Kiwis? :confused:

I'm sitting next to an avocado tree as I type this, there are 3 in this house. Of course they are in a heated house right now (They are outside 70% of the year) , however there are gardens in the UK growing all sorts of tropical fruit and veg without any artificial heat/lighting etc. It's entirely possible, just cheaper to import.

Simon
Nov 25th, 2006, 12:41 AM
There are actually quite a lot of foods native to Britain that are well suited to a vegan diet, and yet even more foods that whilst arenít native to Britain will happily grow in our soil. If using a greenhouse then it gives you an even wider selection of foods you can grow, I have seen bananas been grown in a greenhouse in the North of Scotland, not the warmest or sunniest of places.

Here is a short list of a few things I can think of.

Vegetable: Leek, Carrot, Squash, Pumpkin, cucumber, lettuce, broccoli, Potato, onion, radish, turnip, sprouts, sweet corn, beetroot, cauliflower,

Fruit: Strawberry, Tomato, Apple, Pear, Plum, Damson, Raspberry, Blackcurrant, Blackberry, Gooseberry, Cherry, grapes, rhubarb, peppers (I have heard of oranges, apricots, peaches, kiwi, figs, lemons, etc also been grown outdoors in the uk)

Nut: Hazelnut, Walnut, sweet chestnut.

Legumes: Broad bean, Runner bean, French beans, Soya bean, and various pea varieties.

Grains and seeds: Wheat, Oats, Corn, Sunflower, Rape, Flax, pumpkin, hemp.

A wide variety of mushrooms can also be grown in the UK.

Everything that I eat regularly in my diet could be grown outdoors in the UK. Occasionally I do eat rice but this could be grown in a greenhouse in the UK

Risker
Nov 25th, 2006, 12:47 AM
Just to add - http://www.edenproject.com/

Mahk
Nov 25th, 2006, 01:26 AM
What, no tea or coffee? I'd move. But here is a list of outdoor vegetables grown in the UK from my quick web search:
» Asparagus
» Bean - Broad
» Bean - French
» Bean - Runner
» Beet (Leaf)
» Beetroot
» Broccoli
» Brussels Sprouts
» Cabbages
» Carrot
» Cauliflower
» Courgette
» Cucumber (outdoor)
» Edible Flowers
» Garlic
» Herbs
» Kale (Borecole)
» Kohl Rabi
» Leek
» Lettuce
» Marrow
» Onion
» Parsnip
» Peas
» Potato
» Pumpkin
» Radish
» Rocket
» Salsify
» Scorzonera
» Shallots
» Spinach
» Squash
» Swede
» Sweetcorn
» Tomato (outdoor)
» Turnip

As mentioned earlier, the use of greenhouses would increase the list substantially. I've omitted nuts, seeds, berries, and fruits. Wheat, barley, oats and rye are the main cereals/grains.

Korn
Nov 25th, 2006, 08:05 AM
...a vegan diet is heavily dependent on imported foods.
Hi - it actually isn't, which you'll see from the lists above (and other, longer lists). Plus - what's the alternative? Start killing and animals - which we are against? No. If I would have been born and raised close to arctic areas where growing plants would have been a problem, the answer would have been to move to an area where food can be grown/collected, not to kill, harm or exploit for food.





By contrast a traditional diet, which includes meat and other animal products, can be grown on a local scale in Britain following tried and tested practises. I don't know about UK, but I've heard similar 'arguments' in Norway, where I'm from. When people talk about the glory of the traditional diet, the imagine someone eating a peace of cows meat and some potatoes while listening to someone playing a fiddle. No other vegetables, except maybe a peace of tomato. They forget that both the the cows, the potatoes, the fiddle (and the tomato) are not part of our tradition, but have been imported to Norway at some point in history.

I've seen questions similar to yours raised by people who seem to try to find arguments showing that being vegan isn't 'perfect' - mainly by people who seem to be OK with using imported goods like tea, coffee, sugar, tobacco, computers, cars, clothes, iPods, mobile phones - or vegetables and fruit during the cold season. They never discuss how we should try to make us independent of other imported goods, or seem to have any ethical problems with problems with killing animals ("they're local!"). They don't seem to be worried about all the environmental side effects of factory farming, or the extra land needed to grow all the food animals that are killed for food needs, or all the extra transport (= more environmental issues) that's needed when first growing a lot of livestock food, transporting it to where the animals are, then transport of animals to the slaughter houses, the transport of the meat (cooling is needed) to the shops, or all the electricity needed to keep the meat cold/frozen before it's sold/eaten. They seem to want to find an excuse to eat meat - period.

(By the way, we already have a thread about Veganism In Cold Climates (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3146) which discuss some of the same issues here (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3146).)

Humans are not 'designed' to live anywhere on the planet: it would eg. be difficult to live on local food only in the Northern parts of Sweden, Norway and Finland, for example, because the winters are very long there. The closer to the North and South Pole you get, the more difficult it is to survive.

Humans have been storing (drying, freezing etc) food for centuries, but life would have been a lot easier for these people if all the families took their belongings and moved to a warmer climate. Non-vegans in these climates tend to think that eating meat is the natural answer, but both forget that the animals most Scandinavian meat eaters eat aren't 'natural' elements in these climates: they wouldn't have survived a winter up there simply because they couldn't move around and find food in all that ice and snow. Human manipulation is needed: manipulation that involves a lot of environmental issues. And even if all these millions of people would give up the cold climates and move closer to Equator, they'd have to pollute the world to get there.

Unless one lives in a relative warm climate and grow all the food locally, preferably in your own garden, you'll leave some ecological footprints on your way to fill up your belly. And even if you do that, you'll probably need/buy some spade or other equipment that has been brought to your village by some polluting truck. That's no excuse to ignore environmental issues, but starting to 'mass produce' animals or kill innocent wild animals isn't a solution for someone who respect them.

With the population we have today, humans can't survive on wildlife. Veganism isn't about going back to the stone age or eating wild, 'free' animals anyway, which basically gives us two remaining options: Find the best ways to get the plant based food to your home while harming the environment as little as possible, or move to a warmer climate and more or less grow your own food. A combination of the two sounds quite tempting to me! :)

Korn
Nov 25th, 2006, 08:21 AM
I think the inability to grow healthy produce in many parts of the world is a good argument for why veganism isn't and shouldn't be a universal philosophy. I'll never put meat or dairy on my plate in America, but if I had to venture to some remote region in Africa I wouldn't have a problem with eating whatever was available.

...but veganism was never meant as a 'local' solution for people living in eg. America or areas with similar conditions only. Vegetarianism was born centuries before factory farming existed. Veganism goes a lot further than saying that eating meat/dairy/eggs is OK in some countries/regions, but not in others. It's not even about food only.

Veganism IS a 'universal philosophy', to use your term - you won't find eggs, meat or dairy products on a vegan cafe anywhere in the world. That doesn't mean that you can put a million people on the North Pole and successfully convince them that's it's easy to find vegan food there! :) It means that vegans - like all other people - should try to stick to areas where they have access to food they're happy with eating.

You mention that you wouldn't have a problem eating 'whatever was available' in Africa, but this just means that you're not a vegan - if 'whatever available' includes animal products, which it looks like it does...

Chris O
Nov 25th, 2006, 09:44 AM
I think a key point is that while it may be true that animals can be reared locally, thus using less resources, I would guess that the majority of animal products consumed are imported. This leads to an even greater usage of fuel and other forms of energy and also has led, and is continuing to do so, to vast areas of South America being de-forested to grow fodder crops for cattle, and many other parts of the world being made barren through similar animal farming methods, which are then exported all over the Western world.

I recall reading somewhere, many years ago, that it takes 8 acres of land to sustain 1 acre of cows. If this is still true, then maybe some one could work out the respective environmental costs in terms of energy and habitat for this and a vegan diet.

Has anyone ever thought about the issue of vegan clothing? I've considered the merits of buying an old wool jumper form a charity shop (there are plenty that support animal shelters, so the money would be going towards hepling animals, not the me*t industry) against buying a new man-made fibre product.
The main issue being the use of fresh resources against recycling old ones.
The wool jumper could be said to good because it doesn't involve any new resources, whereas, the new product does. The obvious downside is that it originally came from an animal.
This is even more pertinant when you realise that many things, such as goretex are made from plastics which come from petrochemicals-a whole industry that causes the pollution and/or destruction of vast amounts of habitat, therfore, animals, globally.
Hemp fibres are better, but still involve monoculture stlye farming, which isn't great, habitat wise, whatever is being grown.
I find this type of issue really difficult. I don't want to use animal products, but I don't know which would be better for the enviroment and the animals that live in it:confused:

Korn
Nov 25th, 2006, 10:45 AM
Hi Chris, have you seen the thread about using old, non-vegan products (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=520)?

terrace max
Nov 25th, 2006, 11:23 AM
Here's a list of herbs and vegetables which can be grown in the North of England. Sorry about the formatting - or lack of - didn't have time to sort it out properly.

HERBS
Alexanders
Balm
Balm of Gilead
Basil Bolloso Napoletano
Basil Fine Nano Compatto a Palla
Basil Lemon
Basil Lettuce Leaved
Basil Lime
Basil Violetto Aromatico
Bergamot Mixed
Betony
Blessed thistle
Borage White
Burning bush
Burnet Salad
Calamint Lesser
Chamomile
Clary Sage
Dog Rose
Evening Primrose
Heartsease
Hemp Agrimony
Horehound
Hyssop Blue
Joe Pye Weed
Lemon Grass
Lady's Mantle
Marjoram Pot
Marjoram Sweet
Motherwort
Oregano Greek
Oregano True Greek
Rocket Skyrocket
Rocket Wild
Rue
Sage English
Savory Summer

SALAD LEAVES
American cress
Asparagus Lettuce Cracoviensis
Celtuce
Chop Suey Greens
Greek Cress
Purslane Golden
Purslane Green
Salad All Season
Salad Baby Leaf
Salad Herb
Salad Niche Oriental
Winter Purslane

ASTERACEAE
Artichoke Purple Globe
Artichoke Violetto Precoce
Artichoke Violetto Precoce
Burdock
Cardoon Bianco Avorio
Cardoon Gigante di Romangna
Cardoon Gobbo di Nizzi
Chicory Barba di Cappucino
Chicory Bianca di Chioggia
Chicory Bianca di Milano
Chicory Catalgna Frastagliata
Chicory Catalogna Gigante di Chioggia
Chicory Catalogna Pugliese
Chicory Catalogna Puntarelle a Foglia Stretta
Chicory Catalogna Puntarelle Brindisina
Chicory Catalogna Puntarelle di Galatina
Chicory Dura Witloof
Chicory Grumolo Nero
Chicory Grumolo Rossa
Chicory Grumolo Verde
Chicory Intybus
Chicory Orchidea Rossa
Chicory Palla Rossa 'Agena'
Chicory Palla Rossa 'Guisto'
Chicory Palla Rossa 'Melot'
Chicory Palla Rossa 'Pagoda'
Chicory Palla Rossa 'Pagoda'
Chicory Pan di Zucchero
Chicory Red Rib
Chicory Rossa di Treviso
Chicory Rossa di Treviso 2
Chicory Rossa di Treviso 'Svelta'
Chicory Rossa Italiana
Chicory Selvatica da Campo
Chicory Soncino
Chicory Spadona
Chicory Sugar Loaf
Chicory Taglio Bionda a Fofglie Larghe
Chicory Variegata di Castel Franco
Chicory Variegata di Chioggia 'Fladige'
Chicory Witloof Zoom F1
Chicory Yellora F1
Chicory Zuccherina di Trieste
Dandelion
Endive Ascolana
Endive Bionda a Foglia di Lattuga
Endive Blond Full Heart
Endive Bubikopf 2
Endive Cornet de Bordeaux
Endive di Bordeaux
Endive Fine de Louvier
Endive Gigante di Bergamot
Endive Glory
Endive Grobo
Endive Jeti
Endive Pancalieri
Endive Riccia
Endive Romanesca da Taglio
Lettuce Amorina
Lettuce Arctic King
Lettuce Aruba RZ
Lettuce Barba dei Frati
Lettuce Belize
Lettuce Chartwell
Lettuce Corsair
Lettuce La Brilliante
Lettuce Lattughino
Lettuce Lizzy
Lettuce Lobjoits Green Cos
Lettuce Maravilla de Verano Canasta
Lettuce May King
Lettuce Parella Rossa
Lettuce Red Batavian
Lettuce Red Wave
Lettuce Romana Mortarella Verde d'Inverno
Lettuce Rouge Grenobloise
Lettuce Tonale Ice Queen
Lettuce Winter Crop
Lettuce Winter Density
Lettuce Rouge d'Hiver
Lettuce Salad Bowl
Lettuce Sucrine
Lettuce Ubriacona frastagliata
Salsify
Scorzonera

OTHER
Asparagus Jersey Knight F1
Sweet Corn Baby Corn
Sweet Corn Indian Summer
Sweet Corn Jubilee
Sweet Corn Lark F1
Sweet Corn Sweet Nugget
Sweet Corn Swift F1

POLYGONACEAE
Bistort
Buckwheat
Chinese Water Pepper
Rhubarb
Rhubarb Glaskins Perpetual
Sorrel Blood Veined
Sorrel Buckler Leaved

LEGUMES
Asparagus Pea
Azuki Bean
Climbing Bean Dolichos Lab Lab
Broad Bean Aquadulce
Broad Bean Bunyards Exhibition
Broad Bean Express
Broad Bean Fino
Broad Bean Grand Violetto
Broad Bean Green Windsor
Broad Bean Hangdown Green
Broad Bean Jubilee Hysor
Broad Bean Martock
Broad Bean Masterpiece Green Longpod
Broad Bean Medes
Broad Bean Red Flowered
Broad Bean Stereo
Broad Bean Supersimonia
Broad Bean The Sutton
Broad Bean White Windsor
Broad Bean Witkiem
Chick pea
Climbing French Bean Barlotta Lingua di Fuoco
Climbing French Bean Blauhilde
Climbing French Bean Blue Lake (White Seeded)
Climbing French Bean Borlotto Lamon
Climbing French Bean Borlotto Rosso
Climbing French Bean Cobra
Climbing French Bean Eva
Climbing French Bean Isabelle
Climbing French Bean Meraviglia di Venezia
Climbing French Bean Neckar Gold
Climbing French Bean Yard Long
Drying Bean Brown Dutch
Drying Bean Horsehead
Drying Bean Marie Louise
Drying Bean Soissons
Dwarf French Bean Berggold
Dwarf French Bean Aiguillon
Dwarf French Bean Borlotto di Vigevano
Dwarf French Bean Canadian Wonder
Dwarf French Bean Cannelino
Dwarf French Bean Hildora
Dwarf French Bean Purple Queen
Dwarf French Bean Sonesta
Dwarf French Bean Tendergreen
Dwarf French Bean Triomphe de Farcy
Pea Cavalier
Pea Early Onward
Pea Ezethas Krombek Blau
Pea Fetham First
Pea Meteor
Pea Onward
Pea Misty
Runner Bean Achievement Merit
Runner Bean Czar
Runner Bean Enorma
Runner Bean Hestia
Runner Bean Mergoles
Runner Bean Summer Medley
Runner Bean Sun Bright

SOLANUM
Aubergine Black Beauty
Aubergine Calliope F1
Aubergine Fairy Tale
Aubergine Farmers Long
Aubergine Farmers Long F1
Aubergine Gitana
Aubergine Neon F1
Aubergine Ping Tung
Aubergine Prosperosa
Aubergine Red Egg
Aubergine Tonda Bianca Sfumatadi Rosa
Aubergine Tres Hative de Brabantine
Chilli Pepper Caribbean Blend
Chilli Pepper De Bresse
Chilli Pepper Piccante di Cayenna
Chilli Pepper Pinochio's Nose
Chilli Pepper Prairie Fire
Chilli Pepper Red Cherry
Pepper Antohi Romanian
Pepper Baby Cheesebells
Pepper Choco F1
Pepper Dulce Italiano
Pepper Fushimi
Pepper Gourmet
Pepper Lombardo
Pepper Quadrato D'Asti Rosso
Pepper Round of Hungary
Pepper Shishitou
Pepper Sweet Orange Baby
Pepper Tepin
Pepper Trinidad Seasoning
Pepper Unicorn F1
Tomato Alicante
Tomato Buissonante
Tomato Cuor di Bue
Tomato Garden Pearl
Tomato Marglobe
Tomato Marmande
Tomato Matina
Tomato Money Maker
Tomato Pannovy F1
Tomato Red Alert
Tomato Roma
Tomato Rosada F1
Tomato Rose de Berne
Tomato San Marzano Nano
Tomato Tiny Tim
Tomato Tondino Maremmano
Tomato Totem
Tomato Tumbling Tom
Tomato Yellow Pygmy

AMARANTHACEAE
Amaranth Tender Leaf
Beetroot Detroit
Beetroot Forono
Beetroot Libero RZ
Beetroot Wodan F1
Chard Bright Lights
Chard Lucullus
Chard Verde da Taglio
Goosefoot White
Good King Henry
Leaf Beet Erbette
Mangel
Orache Red
Spinach Giant Winter
Spinach Matador
Spinach New Zealand
Spinach Riccio d'Asti
Spinach Scenic
Tree Spinach
Wormseed

VALERIANACEAE
Lambs Lettuce Cavallo
Lambs Lettuce Louviers
Lambs Lettuce Trophy
Lambs Lettuce Verte de Cambrai

BRASSICAS
Brocolli 9 Star Perennial
Brocolli Bordeaux
Brocolli Early Purple Sprouting
Brocolli Spike
Brocolli Sprouting Early Purple Red Arrow
Brocolli Summer Purple Sprouting (Wok Brok)
Brocolli Tenderstem Green Inspiration F1
Brocolli White Eye
Brocolli White Sprouting
Brussel Sprout Darkmar 2
Brussel Sprout Oliver
Brussel Sprout Rubine
Brussel Sprout Seven Hills
Brussel Sprout Wellington
Cabbage Advantage
Cabbage Caramba F1
Cabbage Hispi
Cabbage Hispi
Cabbage Hispi
Cabbage Marner Early Red
Cabbage Offenham 2 Flower of Spring
Cabbage Pixie
Cabbage Pyramid
Cabbage Pyramid
Cabbage Tundra F1
Cabbage Wintergreen
Calabrese Belstar F1
Calabrese Decathlon F1
Calabrese Fiesta F1
Calabrese Veronica F1
Cauliflower Di Jesi
Cauliflower Di Sicilia Violetto
Cauliflower Violet Queen F1
Cauliflower Winter Armado April
Cauliiflower Mexico F1
Cauliiflower Snow March
Chinese Cabbage Green Lance F1
Chinese Cabbage Tatsoi
Chinese Cabbage Yukina Savoy
Chinese Cabbage Wong Bok
Chinese Cabbage (small) Fong San Improved
Chinese Cabbage (small) Green Seoul
Chinese Kale Kailaan
Choy Sum Hon Tsai Tai
Choy Sum Purple
Choy Sum Tsai Hsin
Cima di Rapa Maceratese
Indian Mustard Amsoi
Kale Cavalo Laciniato
Kale Cottagers
Kale Dwarf Green Curled
Kale Galega de Folhas Lisas
Kale Nero di Toscana
Kale Portuguese Penca Pavoa Verde
Kale Red Bor F1
Kale Red Russian
Kale Red Winter
Kale Ripbor
Kale Rubibor
Kale Russian Red Ursa
Kale Sutherland
Kale Westland Winter
Kale Pentland Brig
Kale Thousandhead
Kohl Rabi Olivia F1
Kohl Rabi Purple Danube F1
Komatsuna
Mibuna Green Spray
Misome
Mispoona
Mizuna
Mustard Bau-Sin
Mustard Big Stem
Mustard Golden Streaks
Mustard Green in snow
Mustard Peacock Tail
Mustard Red Giant
Mustard San-Ho Giant
Mustard Tai Ping Po
Mustard White
Mustard Zlata
Mustard Southern Giant
Namenia
Oriental Mix
Pak Choi Canton White
Pak Choi Joy Choi
Pak Choi Qin Tah Tsai
Pak Choi Riko F1
Pak Choi Tah Tsai
Radish Big Ben
Radish Black Spanish Round
Radish Cherokee
Radish Mooli
Radish Munchen Bier
Radish Scarlet Globe
Radish Zlata
Sessantina
Swede Brora
Swede Joan
Swede Magres
Swede Airlie
Swede Willhemsburger
Turnip Di Milano a Colletto Viola
Turnip Noir d'Hiver
Turnip Tokyo Cross F1
Turnip Golden Ball
Turnip Ivory
Turnip Purple Top Milan
Turnip Tops
Yu Choy Chin Gu
Yu Choy Leafy Yu Choy
Yu Choy Yu Choy Tai

ALLIUMS
Bunching Onion Feast F1
Bunching Onion Ishikura
Bunching Onion Kuronobori
Bunching Onion Shimonita
Bunching Onion Summer Isle
Chinese Chives New belt
Chives
Leek Blauwgroene Herfst Ardea
Leek Natan
Leek Oarsman F1
Leek St Victor
Leek Startrack
Leek Autumn Giant
Onion Ailsa Craig
Onion Brunswick
Onion Cipola
Onion Giant Zitau
Onion Hi Keeper F1
Onion Hystar F1
Onion Keepwell
Onion Lunga di Firenze
Onion Napoleon F1
Onion Owa
Onion Puplette
Onion Red Baron
Onion Tonda Musona
Salad Onion North Holland Blood Red Redmate
Salad Onion White Spear
Salad Onion Winter White Bunching
Salad Onion Ishikuro
Salad Onion White Lisbon
Salad Onion White Lisbon (Winter Hardy)
Shallot Ambition F1
Shallot Prisma F1
Welsh Onion Red
Welsh Onion

UMBELLIFERAE
Angelica Chinese
Angelica Gigas
Anise
Bulbous Chervil
Carrot Autumn King 2
Carrot Cubic
Carrot Early Nantes
Carrot Flakkee
Carrot Kingston F1
Carrot Nantes Frubund
Carrot Nantes Frubund (Fast Crop)
Carrot Navarre F1
Carrot Parmex
Carrot Rainbow
Carrot Rothild
Celeriac Alabaster
Celeriac Bianco del Veneto
Celeriac Monarch
Celery Imperial RZ
Chervil
Chinese Celery (HDRA)
Chinese Celery Kintsai
Chinese Celery White Stem
Coriander Cilantro
Coriander
Cumin
Edible Carrot Leaf
Florence Fennel Amigo F1
Florence Fennel Finale
Florence Fennel Mantovano
Florence Fennel Victoria F1
Hamburg Parsley
Lovage
Mitsuba
Parcel
Parsley Italian Giant
Parsley Plain Leaved 2
Parsnip Avonresister
Parsnip Excalibur F1

CUCURBITS
Courgette Black Forest F1
Courgette Bolognese
Courgette Cavili
Courgette Custard White
Courgette Defender F1
Courgette Gold Bush
Courgette Striato di Napoli
Courgette Tempra
Cucumber Alvin F1
Cucumber Crystal Apple
Cucumber Long Green Maraicher
Cucumber Masterpiece
Cucumber Vert Petit de Paris
Cucumber White Wonder
Gherkin Beth Alpha
Gherkin Diamant
Gourds Crown of Thorns
Melon Ananas
Melon Cantalupo di Charentais
Melon Charleston Gray
Melon Crimson Sweet
Melon Retato Degli Ortolani
Melon Tendral Valenciano
Mixed Pumpkins & Squashes
Squash Avalon F1
Squash Barbara Butternut F1
Squash Berrettina Piacentina
Squash Burgess Buttercup
Squash Butternut
Squash Futsu
Squash Galeuse d'Eysines
Squash Gem Store
Squash Gigante di Napoli
Squash Golden Hubbard
Squash Hokkaido Pumpkin
Squash Lunga di Napoli
Squash Marina di Chioggia
Squash Quintale Seme Giallo
Squash Serpente di Sicilia
Squash Table Ace F1
Squash Table Gold
Squash Thelma Sanders
Squash Tonda Padana
Squash Tromba D'Albenga
Squash Vegetable Spaghetti
Squash Waltham Butternut
Squash Winter Festival F1
Squash Zephyr F1
Pumpkin Rouge Vif d'Etampes

There are lots more. There is a variety of soya bean for northern climes - called Ustie - but I don't bother growing it because all the other beans grow better. There are hundreds of potato varieties available too...

Noone would starve without lentils in a vegan UK!

terrace max
Nov 25th, 2006, 04:27 PM
If I would have been born and raised close to arctic areas where growing plants would have been a problem, the answer would have been to move to an area where food can be grown/collected, not to kill, harm or exploit for food.

I'm glad to see this stated so clearly. I think it betrays ecological ignorance to believe human beings are entitled to live somewhere, anywhere, where subsistence depends upon violence and/or ecological destruction. This misconception pervades much of the typical Western lifestyle. Our entitlement within this ecosystem is limited to what is sustainable.


It is my understanding that a balanced vegetarian or vegan diet would be impossible to grow in Britain, making it un-sustainable due to its dependency on imported foods. By contrast a traditional diet, which includes meat and other animal products, can be grown on a local scale in Britain following tried and tested practises.

Your understanding is flawed. It is not just possible, but relatively easy, to thrive on an entirely locally-sourced vegan diet in the UK. No imports whatsoever. By contrast, it is the 'traditional' UK diet which makes no sense economically (think about subsidies), health-wise, ecologically or ethically.

eve
Nov 26th, 2006, 02:23 AM
Just been reading an article in the Vegan Voice that points out quite clearly that even if you ate meat and dairy every day from local sources, you need 1.6 hectares, but if you are vegan, only 0.5. If the meat eater changes to a mainly imported and processed diet, the footprint climbs to 1.9 hectares, but if we change the vegan diet to a mainly imported and processed food, the land requirement stays at 0.5 hectares.

In other words, the adoption of a vegan diet is far more beneficial for the environment than choosing a local, unprocessed, meat-based diet.

At the Friends of the Earth (FoE) conference 2005, a motion was adopted to consider recognising the need to promote a plant-based diet, and reduce meat, fish, and dairy on environmental grounds. However, the FoE watered down to an "idea of less but better meat, plus information and advice". These environmental organisations make me puke.

terrace max
Nov 26th, 2006, 11:14 AM
These environmental organisations make me puke.

I agree it's frustrating when environmentalists aren't brave enough to reject cruelty to other species. I also find it difficult to understand a vegan who isn't 'green'...

I think we're encouraged to think in factions, to ignore the interconnectedness of animal welfare, human health, environment. Probably divide and rule in action again?

The_Lincoln_Imp
Nov 28th, 2006, 01:54 PM
The presence of six billions humans, growing and consuming more all the time really isn't sustainable at all in terms of the Earth and it's ecosystems. So as it stands no even a vegan diet isn't sustainable even if it's better than other options.

Dart
Nov 29th, 2006, 02:49 PM
As with everything in life,
where there is a will
there is a way.

It is funny how humans can do something when society/science says that it can't be done,
and then a group of humans says that it can be done,
and viola! somehow it gets done.

Can't grow this plant here, or there. Yet there is a vast diversity of plants on that land that can be eaten. Just because nobody knows about it, it is still there. Just look for them.

First you have to go looking. Not just justify your excuse with it can't be done. Ignorance.

Try being a vegan, and organic. I put alot of work into my own garden this summer, so I can be local and organic. Now I am finding out that many farms are going organic around here (transistion stage, so they don't advertise being organic yet). Just start looking.

What is wrong with buying produce that is being grown sustainable in another country? Citrus will never be grown where I am, but if some farmer is being organic and keeping sustainable practice in their produce, then I am all for supporting that farmer by buying their produce. Responsible consumerism.

herbwormwood
Nov 29th, 2006, 04:12 PM
I am hoping that by joining this forum I can get some advise on a tricky question I have.It is claimed that a vegetarian or vegan diet is more environmentally friendly than a meat based diet.

Your sorce is misinformed.:)
Try reading Planet on a Plate for starters.

http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/planetonaplate.htm

As for soya, most soya grown is fed to stock animals. Also soya can be grown in the UK. And soya is not the problem. As explained in
http://www.viva.org.uk/guides/planetonaplate.htm

terrace max
Nov 29th, 2006, 06:57 PM
What is wrong with buying produce that is being grown sustainable in another country? Citrus will never be grown where I am, but if some farmer is being organic and keeping sustainable practice in their produce, then I am all for supporting that farmer by buying their produce. Responsible consumerism.

I guess it comes down to the damage done by shipping produce around the globe - which far outweighs the benefit of it being organically grown. Some organic apples have clocked up more air miles than a terrorist suspect in the custody of the CIA.

Citrus isn't essential for a balanced diet. And I think consumerism and environmental responsibility are a contradiction in terms.

satirecafe
Dec 17th, 2006, 03:46 PM
A vegan diet may not have been ecologically sustainable thousands of years ago, but today an omnivorous diet is not ecologically sustainable.

Also, we should bear in mind that all humans originate from southern Africa, so it is important to study African vegetation to evaluate the ecological sustainability of veganism.

karmadust
Dec 17th, 2006, 05:04 PM
Veganism IS a 'universal philosophy', to use your term - you won't find eggs, meat or dairy products on a vegan cafe anywhere in the world. That doesn't mean that you can put a million people on the North Pole and successfully convince them that's it's easy to find vegan food there! :) It means that vegans - like all other people - should try to stick to areas where they have access to food they're happy with eating.



this assumes that everyone on earth is priveledged enough to have a choice in where they live and what they eat. we are fortunate and have to realize that our ability to choose veganism is directly connected to the fact that we are not starving, we can up and move to wherever suits our whims, and we have access to the education and resources that show us how to make the most of our dietary choices. a good many people do not have that luxury, and i think it's really ridiculous to assume that an impoverished family in ethiopia (or East Timor, or Uzbekistan, or inner city Chicago) should be expected to put what little money and energy they have into moving someplace vegan or purchasing vegan foods which, when even available, are far beyond affordable in most places. realistically, one only has the luxury of considering the ethics of their diet after their basic needs are being met. to say otherwise is to claim that humans are somehow separate from other animals and we lack any sort of survival instinct.

satirecafe
Dec 17th, 2006, 05:47 PM
agreed. i think it is our moral duty to help that impoverished family in Ethiopia or east timor or Uzbekistan or inner city Chicago. animal rights and human rights must go hand in hand.

Korn
Dec 17th, 2006, 07:06 PM
this assumes that everyone on earth is priveledged enough to have a choice in where they live and what they eat.

Not really - a vegan tribe wouldn't have settled in an area where they couldn't live on vegan food, but of course, there may be individuals or groups of people who suddenly find themselves in a situation where they can't get enough food, and in cases like this, non-cannibals have even been known to eat humans. But that doesn't mean that eating humans is now included in their philosophy!

If you are talking about individuals, like eg. a 12-year old child in poor village in Ethiopia - or in Beverly Hills - who want to live as a vegan but are not able to do it because of his parents, I'd say that he is a non-practicing vegan, because 'vegan' isn't only about what you think, but how you live. 'Vegan' describes both a way of thinking and a way of living, and just like there is a 'universal' definition of the color green, there is a universal definition of what the term vegan means. If there's a tribe somewhere that eats meat and use other animal products for one reason or another, well... then that's not a vegan tribe. IMO it isn't more difficult than that.

There may be individuals or groups that want to live as vegans, but for one reason or another don't - maybe they are trying to save their life somewhere by eating eggs - but eggs are still not a part of the vegan diet, so if they eat eggs, they aren't eating vegan food. If they have eggs, meat or dairy on the menu in their local menu, that isn't a vegan menu.

I'm not sure what you disagree in, but I guess it's not that vegans should try to stick to areas where they have access to food they're happy with eating. Again, there may be groups or individuals in certain situations that may not be capable of doing that, but that doesn't make their animal-product-including lifestyle vegan.



i think it's really ridiculous to assume that an impoverished family in ethiopia (or East Timor, or Uzbekistan, or inner city Chicago) should be expected to put what little money and energy they have into moving someplace vegan or purchasing vegan foods which, when even available, are far beyond affordable in most places. I think you misunderstand what I wrote - I'm not talking about what I expect people to do anywhere, really, or what someone would do to save her life. Since producing meat and milk takes a lot more resources than if humans would get their nutrients directly from the plants (instead of letting an animal eat plants first, then kill the animal and eat it), producing meat and milk in normally a luxury that people in these areas wouldn't be able to afford. The may catch wild animals and kill them, but if there are wild animals there, there must be plants there too, since wild animals either eat plants or plant eating animals. If you would try to explain poor, starving people in East Timor or Ethiopia that vegan foods are 'far beyond affordable', they wouldn't even understand what you are talking about, because vegan food for them would be using the same plant ingredients that is used all over the world, and plants (spices, rice, beans and lentils, fruit) isn't more expensive than meat. Personally I haven't been eating any 'vegan speciality food' ever, even if I live in a country where this is available.


The definition of vegan and most other similar words is based on 'normal' situations, not on what someone would do in a life/death situation. There are Christian humans that have been eating other humans in order to survive in special situations, but that doesn't make cannibalism part of the Christian philosophy, and the same goes for being vegan: if a person who wants to live as a vegan are not able to do so due to special conditions in his life situation, and eats meat or eggs or drink milk to survive, eating meat or milk or eggs are still not part of the vegan lifestyle/philosophy or within the 'universal' definition of vegan...


animal rights and human rights must go hand in hand. I totally agree. :)