Does a healthy body manufacture B12?

[Korn]

There are intestinal bacteria that may produce B-12, but I haven't seen any proof that this is a reliable source. If we all started our lives with 4 years of breastfeeding (which gave as a good start and a pool of B12 that could be recirculated), never drank chlorinated water or plants that had been in touch with chlorinated water etc, we could possibly rely on our bodies' ability to recycle and manufacture B12, but most of us are exposed to a lot of B12-unfriendly substances. In some people, B-12 producing bacteria exist in the small intestine where the vitamin theoretically can in be absorbed, but there are several reasons that should not believe that we should get enough B12 from recycling or manufacturing B12.

IMO people living 'normal' life (normal as in how most people live, not normal as in 'natural') life can't rely on the body's ability to manufacture B12. We may both manufacture and recycle B12 in our intestines, but I haven't seen any scientific studies showing that we don't need an external intake of B12.

Here are some quotes from other sites discussing the same topic:


From http://www.detox.org/bowels.html

In the large intestine of a healthy person, friendly flora such as lactobacillus acidophilus manufacture vitamins (B12, biotin and vitamin K), degrade toxins, prevent colonization by pathogens, crowd out other less beneficial species, stimulate the immune system and produce short chain fatty acids (SCFAs) from fiber, which are the primary energy souce for the cells lining the colon.


From http://www.healthy.net/scr/Article.asp?Id=1924

B12 is also manufactured by bacteria in the human intestines, but it is not known how much we can naturally absorb and utilize from that source. In general, digestion and absorption must be good for adequate B12 to be obtained. Many laxatives and overuse of antacids can reduce absorption and deplete stores of B12.

From http://community.channel4.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/258603069/m/5590009793

Gastric, intestinal, liver organic substances of both primates animals fed for more than three years in a diet without source of vitamin B12 and vegan human had been extracted and showed high content of vitamin B12 and in vitro the extracted organisms showed to manufacture vitamin B12
Both the men and the primate animals had high/normal level of B12.

Experiments carried out on vegans showed that B12 manufactured by bacterial flora in the stomach and intestines (not colon) are highly absorbed in the ileum

[Korn]

Here are some more quotes, also mentioned in other threads:
From http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?

"...the human small intestine also often harbours a considerable microflora and this is even more extensive in apparently healthy southern Indian subjects. We now show that at least two groups of organisms in the small bowel, Pseudomonas and Klebsiella sp., may synthesise significant amounts of the vitamin."




From http://www.holotc.net/pages/b12_deficiency/1/general.html

...the greater quantities of fiber consumed by vegetarians tend to promote the settlement of bacteria in the lower areas of the small intestine and hence also the production of B12 in this region. As there is normally also a sufficient concentration of intrinsic factor in this area, the body is able to utilise any B12 that the bacteria may produce here.


From http://www.natural-connection.com/resource/tnc_reference_library/
b12_information.html

Bacteria in the human intestinal tract do make vitamin B12. However, the majority of these bacteria are found in the large intestine. Vitamin B12 does not appear to be absorbed from the large intestine (2).

Normally, vitamin B12 is secreted into the small intestine along with bile and other secretions and is reabsorbed, but this does not add to the body's vitamin B12 stores. Since small amounts of vitamin B12 are not reabsorbed, it is possible that eventually vitamin B12 stores will be used up. However, we may be quite efficient at re-using vitamin B12 so that deficiency is rare.

Some bacteria in the small intestine apparently produce vitamin B12 (3) which can be absorbed (4). This is one possible explanation for why so few cases of vitamin B12 deficiency are reported. Perhaps our bacteria are making vitamin B12 for us.

At this time, research is continuing on vitamin B12 requirements. Some researchers have even hypothesized that vegans are more efficient than the general public in absorbing vitamin B12 (5).

From http://www.nutritionadvocate.com/story/vitaminB12.html

The large intestines of humans also have many of these B12-producing bacteria, but it is believed that most of this bacteria is too far away from the absorption sites to do any good. Others contend that humans get adequate amounts of B12 from the vitamin-producing bacteria in the lower portion of the small intestine, which is also a site for absorption.


From http://www.championtrees.org/topsoil/b12coblt.htm

The implication for humans subsisting on vegetarian diets are profound. B12 synthesis by indigenous bacteria is known to occur naturally in the human small intestine, primary site of B12 absorption. As long as gut bacteria have cobalt and certain other nutrients, they produce B12. In principle then, internal B12 synthesis could fulfill our needs without any B12 provided by diet.

But if cobalt in our diet is on the wane, perhaps the problem isn't so much lack of B12-synthesizing intestinal flora as lack of cobalt, the element with which bacteria weave their magic. The burning question then is: how cobalt deficient is our soil?"

[Korn]

This thread is also related to the same topic:
Do vegans need less B12 than others? (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=555)

[herbwormwood]

I don't take a supplement as such but I use fortified foods: soya milk, margarine, sometimes I have fortified breakfast cereal and yeast extract.
I don't want to risk deficiency because it can cause neurological damage.

[eve]

thanks, korn, for all that useful info.
herbwormwood, I've not taken margarine for years, nor breakfast cereals, and have stopped taking yeast extract (marmite) as I understand that yeast is not so good for females (something about candiasis I think). I've found a nice spread that tastes like marmite but is called Vegespread, it is free of GM, free of gluten, free of wheat and is labelled as vegan. I just read the label again and notice that it is a 'very rich source of vitamin B complex and folate', so it seems I am taking a supplement :), though I rarely have more than one slice of bread a day with avocado and Vegespread.

[Korn]

A new study have also found that the appendix seem to have an important function after all, as a storehouse and manufacturing facility for useful bacteria. Maybe it even plays an more important role for recycling/manufacturing B12, which is dependent on a healthy amount of good bacteria/microorganisms?

[Manzana]

Hi everyone...

First of all, I am not sure if this is the right place to post this, but here it goes...

I have been doing some research on B12. The main reason is that I am not too keen on taking supplements or giving money to the pharmaceutical companies (either directly by buying supplements myself or indirectly by making companies purchase their products to reinforce my food)...

I am also very keen on always buying organic food... I am on a steep learning curve but trying my hardest... the reason for this is mainly that i do not approve on the use of pesticides, not for killing insects (which is quite unvegan in my opinion) and also for health reasons (as far as possible I would like to keep my body DDT and other similar substances free)...

Not long ago, I came across (on the Alpro website) some mention that apparently, a company cannot label a product as organic if they reinforce it in any way. This is European Union Legislation so will not apply to other countries outside the EU (?)... this belief has been reinforced by the fact that companies such as Alpro or Oatly have their own brand Organic Versions of products (that are not reinforced) and yet the same products that have been reinforced are the "non organic" for some bizarre and to me incomprehensible reason....

The issues here are:

1) How is B12 manufactured so that the EU as such does not allow for a product containing this Vitamin to be labelled as organic? Is there anything in this process that would make it non organic?

2) The EU seems to have the attitude that B12 (and other vitamins) are "medicines"... I am not sure if this is a good or a bad approach but I am slightly inclined to believe this is good... What are your thoughts?

3) I have seen a couple of articles that suggest that B12 is in fact produced by humans and as such we need not take anything... Any thoughts on this?

4) I am still researching the subject but so far I have found some very disappointing facts such as that Oatly, use organic oats for their non enriched version but for some BIZARRE reason (well, i guess price) not in their reinforced version!... top this up with the fact that the soil association claims that 85% of the oats they tested in 2002 were found to have traces of pesticides and it does not paint a pretty picture...

Let me know your thoughts please...

[Manzana]

A new study have also found that the appendix seem to have an important function after all, as a storehouse and manufacturing facility for useful bacteria. Maybe it even plays an more important role for recycling/manufacturing B12, which is dependent on a healthy amount of good bacteria/microorganisms?


do you have a link for this? I would love to read it...

[Korn]

do you have a link for this? I would love to read it...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21153898/

[Korn]

1) How is B12 manufactured so that the EU as such does not allow for a product containing this Vitamin to be labelled as organic? Is there anything in this process that would make it non organic?
B12 is often manufactures using a fermentation process (fermentation of plant based material). The best way to find the source of a product's B12 is probably just to send the company an email... The Vegan Society sells vegan supplements, maybe you can ask them where their vitamins come from? They should know...


2) The EU seems to have the attitude that B12 (and other vitamins) are "medicines"... I am not sure if this is a good or a bad approach but I am slightly inclined to believe this is good... What are your thoughts?
In some European countries, B12 supplements containing more than a few microgram are not considered a supplement, and can therefore only be sold as medicine (and needs prescriptions). Unless people have a condition that requires much more B12 than is normally considered necessary, what they need isn't a regular supplement, but a 'medical amount' of B12, so the restrictions make sense to me...



3) I have seen a couple of articles that suggest that B12 is in fact produced by humans and as such we need not take anything... Any thoughts on this?

Even if you'd get all the B12 from recycling, natural food and body manufacturing (which this thread is about - see the earlier posts) - the reliability of these amounts doesn't necessarily apply to people who don't live the way most people live today, consuming a lot of B12 antagonistic substances...

By using a computer we support lots of company providing all the different parts in it, and buying B12 from a health food store can't be worse than buying some kilograms of iPods, radios, TVs, PCs or anything else. If the problem is the lack of organic labeling, and not that a product isn't organic as such (because it may be organic even if it doesn't say organic on the package), I guess the solution either is to check if the product in question is organic, or accept that lots of what we consume isn't organically produced.

B12 is counted in microgram (mcg). A mcg is a mg/1000 mg, which is a g/1000 g, which is a kg/1000. Even if you would eat an average of 3 mcg B12 every day throughout your life, and become 80 years old, your total B12 consumption is less than 100 mg - in other words, less than a 100,000th of a gram.

It would take 100,000 B12 chewing people a lifetime to reduce the worldwide consumption of inorganic B12 by one gram!!!


I always prefer organic stuff myself, but focus on food... I agree that it's good to support the 'good' companies whenever possible, and use supplements (if needed) that are non-synthetic; the body is normally more 'friendly' with organic than synthetic stuff anyway. Let's hear what you find out, but just make sure don't become a "Self Exhausting Microgram-Oriented Vegan (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11230)"...

:)

[Manzana]

Hi Korn,

First of all, thanks for the link, very interesting.



B12 is often manufactures using a fermentation process (fermentation of plant based material). The best way to find the source of a product's B12 is probably just to send the company an email... The Vegan Society sells vegan supplements, maybe you can ask them where their vitamins come from? They should know...



I will make some more research into this.



In some European countries, B12 supplements containing more than a few microgram are not considered a supplement, and can therefore only be sold as medicine (and needs prescriptions). Unless people have a condition that requires much more B12 than is normally considered necessary, what they need isn't a regular supplement, but a 'medical amount' of B12, so the restrictions make sense to me...


My issue with it was more focus towards, does it make any sense to say to manufacturer's: "you cannot label something organic (even if it is) if you put B12 or other supplements in (no matter the quantity)"?

I think this might well have the negative effect (as so far my research seems to be proving) of manufacturer's using non organic ingredients (cheaper) for their reinforced products... and organic ingredients for their not reinforced products...

Is this fair? where is the sense in it? Surely this legislation must have an underlying purpose....



Even if you'd get all the B12 from recycling, natural food and body manufacturing (which this thread is about - see the earlier posts) - the reliability of these amounts doesn't necessarily apply to people who don't live the way most people live today, consuming a lot of B12 antagonistic substances...

By using a computer we support lots of company providing all the different parts in it, and buying B12 from a health food store can't be worse than buying some kilograms of iPods, radios, TVs, PCs or anything else. If the problem is the lack of organic labeling, and not that a product isn't organic as such (because it may be organic even if it doesn't say organic on the package), I guess the solution either is to check if the product in question is organic, or accept that lots of what we consume isn't organically produced.

B12 is counted in microgram (mcg). A mcg is a mg/1000 mg, which is a g/1000 g, which is a kg/1000. Even if you would eat an average of 3 mcg B12 every day throughout your life, and become 80 years old, your total B12 consumption is less than 100 mg - in other words, less than a 100,000th of a gram.

It would take 100,000 B12 chewing people a lifetime to reduce the worldwide consumption of inorganic B12 by one gram!!!


I always prefer organic stuff myself, but focus on food... I agree that it's good to support the 'good' companies whenever possible, and use supplements (if needed) that are non-synthetic; the body is normally more 'friendly' with organic than synthetic stuff anyway. Let's hear what you find out, but just make sure don't become a "Self Exhausting Microgram-Oriented Vegan (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11230)"...

:)

I understand an i dont think I will become a Microgram oriented vegan :p

Nevertheless, I have just been thinking about a few issues regarding B12, for example, I found out that it is pretty standard practice to add it to animal feed... in which case, I wonder how much B12 would actually eggs/meat/milk etc have.. Of course by being a vegan we avoid this enrichment... and as you say we would be more prone to deffiencies since we have not got the initial high levels...

I will write a couple of letters and get back to you... I just think it is interesting that you are not allowed to label something organic for the mere fact of adding B12 to a product that would otherwise be!

[Korn]

I found out that it is pretty standard practice to add it to animal feed... in which case, I wonder how much B12 would actually eggs/meat/milk etc have..
It's quote common to add B12 and other supplements to animal feeds - animals of course suffer from the same lack of nutrients in the soil as humans. The same is true for iodine... it has been said that vegans who live in an area with soil that's low in iodine (and eat local food only) may become iodine deficient, which of course is true - but many of those who inform about this fail to mention that people who only eat animals eat grass/plants from the same iodine deficient area also will lack iodine. Some vegans are actually quite good at creating the impression that eating vegan is the problem, and not (in this case), a not-diet-related lack of certain nutrients.


Of course by being a vegan we avoid this enrichment...
...unless we also take supplements the same way these animals are given supplement.



and as you say we would be more prone to defiencies since we have not got the initial high levels...
We aren't prone to more deficiencies than meat eaters, but other deficiencies. B12 is one of the only deficiencies that are more common among vegans than others.

Some meat eaters may have high initial levels of B12 before they go vegan - in some cases, artificially high levels, which we have no reason to believe is a good thing, due to the various issues associated with very high B12 levels (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1073). These new vegans may benefit from avoid B12 for a while, because there's no need to eat so much B12 that most of it is stored in the body (in some cases, for several years) instead of being used.


Others, like so-called 'ovo-vegetarians', who rely on eggs for some nutrients like B12, may actually be B12 deficient before they go vegan, because eggs don't contain much B12 in the first place, and it has been reported that up to 90% of the B12 in eggs isn't absorbed.

Finally, if the large study performed by Tuft University is an indication of the real B12 levels out there, 39% of the (non-vegan) population is 'flirting with marginal vitamin B12 status (http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/pr/2000/000802.htm)'. This study didn't take MMA and homocysteine levels into consideration, so the truth (according the the observation that measuring blood levels of B12 normally gives wrong, too low results in a 1:2 ratio) could be that almost 80% of the non-vegan population are in the low or deficient range, and therefore actually do not have high initial levels at all - because, of course: we cant use the most critical (and partly controversial methods) as a reference for the actual B12 levels of vegans only. We should either use this reference for everybody - or nobody. Again - some vegans and others are pretty good at creating a negative view of the nutrient levels in vegans - a view that there's no scientific backup for anywhere, and are very critical about tests that show good B12 levels among vegans (because they don't take MMA/Hcy into consideration), but compare them with studies on non-vegans that does not take MMA/Hcy into consideration. That's silly. :)

[masurabi]

I definitely believe that B12 and the majority of other B vitamins are created by bacteria in our intestines. How does it make sense that all other vegetarian animals create B12, but humans don't?! I also read in a magazine once that after just one week of antibiotics, peoples B vitamin levels are 50% less 6 months after the antibiotics than they were before the antibiotics, I do not know how scientists haven't connected the dots, we know that bacteria in our intestines produce B vitamins and that B vitamin levels drop after antibiotics… Isn't this all the info we need!!! I also think that all humans in todays society are deficient in intestine bacteria because we live in such a sterile environment, lots of antibiotics, lots of cooked foods, and our fruit and veggies are covered with sulfur and fungicides that disrupt our bacteria in our GI track, so therefor vegans should take lots of probiotics to ensure that they have the ability to produce it. But, on one hand I feel as if our bodies have forgotten how to make it because we have been supplying it with them for so long, its sort of like how you give your body too many steroids and then your body's natural steroids stop producing, or how you are 20x more constipated after taking laxatives for a long period of time because your body becomes dependent on something to help it poop. Anyway it is just a though, I am going to test my B vitamin levels in one year, to see if my hypothesis is correct and my body, like other animals, produces its own B12.

...This could also explains why alcoholics are so deficient in B vitamins, it is because their bacteria in their gut can't handle the high levels of alcohol, so they die.

[Korn]

B12 synthesis certainly needs beneficial bacteria, so this article from August this year isn't exactly good news....

Antibiotics: Killing Off Beneficial Bacteria… for Good? (http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2011/08/killing-beneficial-bacteria/)

[Jara]

This is an experiments with baboons, I thought this thread could be the one for it. It states that we can create our own b12. Sorry for not summarize it but I wouldn' dare with my English. Better have a look to it, I think is really interesting:

http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/why-we-should-not-eat-meat/a-normal-source-of-vitamin-b12.html

[Jara]

I don't know if this article has been already showed in other thread but it could be of interest:

http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html


Accordind to the author, V V. Vetrano, a healthy body does manufacture b12.

[Consistency]

This is an experiments with baboons, I thought this thread could be the one for it. It states that we can create our own b12. Sorry for not summarize it but I wouldn' dare with my English. Better have a look to it, I think is really interesting:

http://www.rawfoodexplained.com/why-we-should-not-eat-meat/a-normal-source-of-vitamin-b12.html

It says baboons can create their own B12. Not humans.

[Consistency]

I don't know if this article has been already showed in other thread but it could be of interest:

http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html


Accordind to the author, V V. Vetrano, a healthy body does manufacture b12.

http://jacknorrisrd.com/response-to-vegan-vitamin-b12-deficiency-is-a-myth/

[Jara]

It says baboons can create their own B12. Not humans.


It says also: (I cppy and paste)

It is well known that anaerobic bacteria exists in the human digestive tract just as they exist in the baboon digestive tract. Vegans not taking supplements, who were part of an experiment, had no deficiency of vitamin B12. If it was not in their food as some scientists claim, then it had to be formed by the host's microbial flora. "The highest levels of vitamin B12 were produced by the anaerobic isolates, in particular by Cl perfringens and some of the anaerobic Gram negative rods.


Is a shame, though, it doesn't give any reference about these experiments.

[Jara]

http://jacknorrisrd.com/response-to-vegan-vitamin-b12-deficiency-is-a-myth/


I think this article doesn't answer all Vetrano' statements but, in any case, my English is not that good, I don't understand about nutrition facts and, much less, about medicine. I would have loved to have an answer from Vetrano to J. Norris. This kind of thing desn't bring you anywhere.

[Brandon Frye]

I have heard many different opinions on the subject of B12 for us vegans. It seems that the only true way to know whether or not you need supplementation is to get tested by your doctor. I too, have heard that we can create B12 in our bowels as animals do, but like has been mentioned, I'm not sure if the research is there yet or not. I personally take a supplement to ensure that my levels are high enough.

[Consistency]

Lao Tsu - "Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know."

[Korn]

Those who know, do not speak. Those who speak, do not know.But... if Lao Tzu said these words, does that mean that he didn't know? :-)

[Consistency]

But... if Lao Tzu said these words, does that mean that he didn't know? :-)

:p

Whoever wrote it, was most likely being observant of how people function and this person must of known something of importance during a time when everyone tried to reach for the same solution. This event most likely spawned the creation of the quote. Like I always say, no one does anything for no reason.

[misosoup]

Dr McDougall on B12 http://drmcdougall.com/misc/2007nl/nov/b12.htm. When I was vegetarian my B12 was so low they wanted to give me injections. Since turning vegan my B12 is fine. I have no idea how or why this has happened.