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Michael Benis
Oct 18th, 2006, 05:31 PM
Most humans can synthesise carnitine and taurine more than adequately if their overal protein intake is OK. Cats on a vegan diet need suplementation with both, on the other hand. So do Dogs, especially big old dogs. Most vegan dog foods contain neither, unfortunately. Some large breeds sufer from heart problems without supplementation if they are on a vegan diet.

Assuming you are neither a dog or cat or other large carnivore you should be fine ;)

Cheers

Mike

rianaelf
Oct 18th, 2006, 07:10 PM
this may be helpful
http://www.foodprocessing.com/articles/2005/543.html

earthchild
Oct 27th, 2006, 07:29 PM
Here is a neat website that gives indepth nutritional info for many whole foods. It gives very detailed info on which amino acids are present as well as vitamins, minerals, etc.

http://www.whfoods.com/foodstoc.php

Just click the food of your choice. Then under the histogram plot, click nutritional profile, then under that there is an option for a more indepth nutritional profile.

This is such a neat site, I find myself referencing it all the time. Hope this helps.:)

DancingWillow
Oct 28th, 2006, 03:31 AM
i remember reading somewhere that soy is the only vegan product that contains all amino acids (although obviously there are many vegan foods that contain various combinations of some of the amino acids)...i don't remember where i read this though, so i'm not sure how true it is.

herbwormwood
Oct 28th, 2006, 02:22 PM
On my carton of Alpro soya milk it says "contains all 8 essential amino acids."

j&k
Oct 28th, 2006, 05:47 PM
Yes, it contains all essential amino acids, but it doesn't contain all conditionally essential amino acids which are the ones that can (albeit rarely) present problems....

veggirl77
Jan 22nd, 2007, 10:44 PM
I have been vegan for 35 years. I eat very healthy, yet I would like to supplement my diet with free form amino acids. I would like to begin working out and creating a little muscle definition. I'm 5'6 and 115 lbs., so fairly thin.....I could use a little muscle. I don't think I eat enough protein since my diet is probably about 75% raw (or more).

Is there such a thing as "vegan" amino acid supplements or do they originate from animal products? Can they be made from soy?
I have emailed several companies that sell free form amino acids but have not heard back.

I know there are soy protein mixes but I'm not sure how good they are. Can anyone advise me to a good vegan soy protein mix?

I would appreciate any advice.

Thanks,
susan

Kiran
Jan 23rd, 2007, 09:07 AM
Hey Veggirl77,

You can put on mass even from a raw vegan diet. Most vegetables, greens, seeds, beans and nuts provide the protien your body needs. Protiens are made of amino acids and technically your body's requirement is for amino acids to get the protien. I understand you are mostly on a raw vegan diet and it is essential to remember that a predominant fruit diet will not provide amino acids. If you eat a varied range of food you should have enough protien to control your weight and muscular build. Soyabeans, spinach and leafy veggies will provide high quality protien. Certain food may lack in specific amino acid(s) but might be high in others, and if you eat a varied diet some other food will be able to compensate for this, hence offering a balance. It is not at all difficult to get amino acids from a vegan diet.

veggirl77
Jan 23rd, 2007, 05:08 PM
Thanks for the reply.

I eat mostly fruit, vegetables, nuts and seeds. I dont' eat beans (I don't like them) I can't help but worry about my protein intake. I'm not skinny, but slender and would like to add some muscle. How do I do that?

If I don't supplement with amino acid supplements, then I would like to
add a soy protein shake....do you know of any good ones out there? I have tried some and have not found one that tastes good.

Fifty9
Jan 25th, 2007, 02:56 AM
I would not recommend supplementing protein. Have you already started with weight training?

sp00ki
Jan 25th, 2007, 12:09 PM
Why wouldn't you? I've found that muscle recovery following strenuous workouts is much faster when protein supplements are used, especially slow twitch workouts. Soreness also seems to be reduced.
Here's the supplement i use. (https://secure7.nexternal.com/shared/StoreFront/product_detail.asp?CS=vegane&RowID=1107&All=True#Top) Lots of protein as well as vitamins and other essentials... i make one shake a day prior to ~1.5 hour in the gym-- seems to work quite well for me.

*ed: this one isn't very tasty, but it's tolerable.

Fifty9
Jan 25th, 2007, 10:18 PM
There is no reason to supplement protein on a healthy diet; you'll be getting plenty. Besides that, protein supplements are usually protein isolates or protein concentrates, which are not healthy. Humans do not store excess protein, and trying to eliminate the large, unused amounts puts a terrible and unnecessary strain on the kidneys.

As long as your caloric intake is high enough and made up of healthy, whole foods, then you should be great.

sp00ki
Jan 26th, 2007, 02:13 AM
I'm not too sure where you're getting your information, but i'd consider re-evaluating your sources-- what you're saying simply isn't true. There's lots of mis-information supporting both sides of the argument out there, but the findings from University/medical studies consistently provide overwhelming evidence which supports that a significant increase in protein is required for resistance and endurance atheletes alike.
A study by Dr. Peter Lemon (just google his name in combination with terms like "protein", you'll find plenty of references to the study) showed the following:

A team of researchers from Kent State University, Ohio, and McMaster University, Ontario, led by Dr. Peter Lemon studied a group of 12 male subjects during two months of resistance training. They found that a protein intake of 81 grams per day (0.99g per kg of bodyweight for a 180 lb male) resulted in a negative nitrogen balance. Nitrogen balance is a measure of protein metabolism. A negative nitrogen balance indicates that the protein needs of the body are not being met and protein is being scavanged from tissue elsewhere in the body to maintain essential body functions. This may lead to reduced gains in muscle mass and strengthAnother medical publication published an article by Dr. Enette Larson (specifically about vegetarians and nutrient intake) says:

Strength trained athletes (weight lifters, wrestlers, football players or field throwers), or those with high training levels or low energy intakes need to include more protein-rich foods. This is easily accomplished by encouraging the athlete to add 1 to 3 servings of protein-rich foods to their current diet (e.g., soy milk shake, lentils onto spaghetti sauce, tofu added to stir-fry or garbanzo beans to salad).
And while not completely relevant, Dr. Paul Flakoll found that protein supplements actually prevented injury during rigorous exercise:

His study measured the impact of protein supplements on the health and performance of the 400 recruits. One group took a daily protein and energy supplement developed by Flakoll. Another group took an energy supplement, and a third group received a placebo, which had no nutritive value at all.
"We measured the changes in their fat, lean mass and functional activities, such as rifle scores. We also tracked how often they were treated for various medical conditions," he said.
"The differences between the supplemented group and the group taking placebos were quite striking. And, there were huge effects in the group receiving the supplement with protein," Flakoll said.
In the group that received protein supplements, there were 33 percent fewer reports of treatment for colds, upper respiratory illnesses, fractures and muscle ailments. In the group that received protein, only one person was treated for heat stroke, compared to 13 in the other groups, he said.That's simply evidence supporting the need for an increase in protein consumption. But that leaves the question: how much protein is actually needed by someone to strength train properly?

For years, athletes have ignored the published protein guidelines and consumed amounts far in excess of the government's recommendation.2 Some quality research has demonstrated that RDA levels for those involved in athletics are inadequate and may impede recovery or limit muscle growth.3 It is generally accepted that endurance athletes should consume 1.2 to 1.4 grams of protein per kilogram of body weight per day.3 Strength and power athletes are recommended to consume protein between 1.4 and 1.8 grams per kilogram of body weight per day.3 Although there are no recommendations for people with musculoskeletal injuries, hospital guidelines have been published.4 For general surgery, it is recommended that protein levels be 1.5 grams per kilogram of body weight per day. For cases of multiple trauma, levels are between 1.5 and 2.0 grams per kilogram of body weight per day. Finally, for burns and severe sepsis, protein levels are recommended at 2.5 grams per kilogram of body weight per day.I don't know how much protein you already consume, but it's unlikely that a vegan diet alone would provide enough to prevent the issue discussed in my first quote. That's not to say you NEED a suppliment, but eating enough to supply the ammount of protein required is pretty tough in my opinion. In fact, even meeting the daily recommended minimum protein intake level of 0.8 grams per Kg of body weight (as recommended by the National Academy of Sciences, the organization responsible for setting national health guidelines and recommended daily intake of nutrients in the United States, as well as the Food and Drug Administration) is relatively difficult on a vegan diet. Use this calculator to see if you actually are getting what you need:
http://www.healthcalculators.org/calculators/protein.asp

It's likely you're not. Honestly, the most efficient way to do that is a protein shake. Again, it's NOT essential-- it's actually more healthy to get proteins from food over the course of the day-- but as you know, that's not always easy.
What i find works for me is consuming a 25 gram-of-protein shake (i linked to it above) thirty minutes before working out for 60/90 minutes, then sip a second one over the course of the day. That with a normal, well rounded diet prevents soreness (i definitely feel-- and regret-- the day after a workout or a hard ride with no protein shake) and promotes faster recovery. I don't know if that works for everyone, but it definitely works for me, and evidence shows that it works for atheletes of many different calibers. That's the reason pro and collegiate atheletes and trainers swear by supplements-- atheletes need increased ammounts of protein to allow their bodies to adapt to being active, and supplemens do a great job of making that happen.
Just do a bit of research about it, you'll find tons of medical evidence explaining exactly why.

*Sorry, looks like that link might not work; if it doesn't, just search for "Vegan Complete Meal Replacement Protein Powder by Pure Advantage" on veganessentials.com... good luck!

veggirl77
Jan 26th, 2007, 02:01 PM
Thanks sp00ki. I will try the protein powder you recommended.

Fifty9
Jan 26th, 2007, 11:03 PM
sp00ki, just to clarify; you are saying that it is difficult to obtain adequate protein on a vegan diet alone, and that protein supplementation is an acceptable way to meet our protein needs.

First, I want to say that the protein needs you cite are greatly inflated. The World Health Organization recommends people consume 0.5g of protein per kg of bodyweight. However, we can use yours as an example.

A potato is about 10% protein, beans are about 28%, and broccoli is about 47%. On a 2,000 cal/day diet consisting of these foods, a man of about 150lb will easily meet the 0.8g per kg of body weight. If the same person starts rigorous exercise and requires more calories, his protein will also increase with all other nutrients while maintaining the same ratio. Of the foods I listed, potatoes are the lowest in protein. If you ate just potatoes, you would get 50g of protein from those 2,000 calories. If you started working out and ate 3,000 cal, you would get 75g of protein. 4,000 cal = 100g of protein. As you can see, getting adequate protein on plants is a non-issue. But, does the extra protein help?

Getting adequate protein is important, but it's also important to get plenty of carbohydrate. I don't think anyone argues that athletes need extra nutrition, including protein. However, by consuming protein instead of other nutrients will not be better than increasing all nutrients. It's been found many times that increased protein does not increase performance, but may actually inhibit it if consuming protein in place of carbohydrate.

*borrowed from Dr. McDougall's website

Level of dietary protein impacts whole body protein turnover in trained males at rest by Patricia Gaine in the April 2006 issue ofMetabolism found in five male endurance runners that, “a protein intake of 1.2 g/kg or 10% of total energy intake is needed to achieve a positive nitrogen balance.” The source of protein was beef and vegetarians were excluded from the study. No advantage was found for consuming higher levels of protein. The high protein diet (30% protein, 30% fat, and 40% carbohydrate—like the Zone diet) provided insufficient carbohydrates to replenish muscle glycogen and may result in fluid imbalances and dehydration according to the researchers.Regarding protein shakes, you should read about protein isolates and you'll discover why they are a bad idea. The relationship of protein isolates to increased IGF-1 levels, and IGF-1 to cancer growth is enough to deter me. Besides that, they are pointless anyway. If you want to get the most out of your protein, increase the healthy - whole foods in your diet and carbohydrate ratio. This way your body will use carbohydrate for its intended use (fuel) and protein (tissue repair) instead of having to convert protein to fuel to make up for carbohydrate deficiency.

If you still feel that you need extra protein, then adding an extra cup of lentils or a bit of tofu is acceptable, but protein supplements are the wrong direction.

Roxy
Jan 27th, 2007, 05:32 AM
Fifty9, I know we talked about this in another thread, but what exactly is an "IGF-1" level?

Fifty9
Jan 27th, 2007, 06:34 AM
IGF-1 is short for "Insulin-like Growth Factor 1". It's a powerful growth hormone made in the body. IGF-1 levels are simply the amount of IGF-1 you have in your body. The primary job of IGF-1 is to promote growth, but it will promote the growth of both healthy and diseased tissues. During certain stages of our lives, growth is important, but after that stage we don't need as much. People with lower IGF-1 levels have a longer lifespan, and a more youthful appearance.

Diet can play a large role in our serum IGF-1 levels, and therefore the dietary choices we make can help us control this. Vegans typically have a lower IGF-1 level than omni's and lacto-ovo veg' people. Drinking milk boosts IGF-1 levels a lot however, protein isolates have been shown to boost it much more than milk; as I discussed in the other thread.

Roxy
Jan 28th, 2007, 05:46 AM
Right....I think I've got it. Thanks so much for the explanation!

So IGF-1 can boost the growth of healthy cells as well as bad cells? So if you had cancerous cells in your body, then eating too much soy protein isolate could cause the growth of these cells because the IGF-1 levels have been boosted by the soy protein isolate?

Am I following?

Fifty9
Jan 28th, 2007, 05:59 AM
^ Correct. Our bodies can eliminate cancer in early stages, but IGF-1 prevents these cells from dieing while promoting their growth. Very tall people have a naturally higher IGF-1 level, and taller people get more colon cancer, breast cancer and die younger. You don't see too many old giants, do you?

Manzana
Jan 28th, 2007, 09:37 AM
Just a quick point sp00ki, I do agree that sometimes protein shakes are a good option (just like sometimes fast food is a good option), however, I would definitely not recommend them on a regular basis... I am a very keen sports person and I work out for at least an hour a day. I eat LOADS when I work out and in those times of the year when I do weight training. It is true that sometimes you may not have time to eat and a protein shake can be a quick fix to help recovery, but it is also true that they are hard to digest and they have some negative side effects (I have to agree with fifty9 there!)

Veggirl77, you need to increase the amount of calories you eat (and if you like raw food, I would suggest lots of hummus and avocadoes, guacamole, nuts...) you also need to do weight training if you want more muscle (although, to be honest, unless you are quite disciplined about it, some naturally slender/thin people find putting on muscle difficult)... the plus side is that not being male, you probably will only want a bit of definition as opposed to being BIG ;)

Roxy
Jan 28th, 2007, 04:35 PM
^ Correct. Our bodies can eliminate cancer in early stages, but IGF-1 prevents these cells from dieing while promoting their growth. Very tall people have a naturally higher IGF-1 level, and taller people get more colon cancer, breast cancer and die younger. You don't see too many old giants, do you?

Thanks for all that info! It's all new to me and I'm glad I know about it now.

Fifty9
Jan 29th, 2007, 05:14 AM
I'm glad you found it interesting.

It's important that vegans (and everybody else) know the significance of a healthy diet. Exclusion of animal products does not equal health, and too many new vegans fall down that path of diets high in mock meats, white flours, sugars, salt and oils. I don't necessarily care what people choose to eat, but people who make an effort to eat healthy should have the right information.

herbwormwood
Jan 29th, 2007, 03:45 PM
I have been vegan for 35 years. I eat very healthy, yet I would like to supplement my diet with free form amino acids. I would like to begin working out and creating a little muscle definition. I'm 5'6 and 115 lbs., so fairly thin.....I could use a little muscle. I don't think I eat enough protein since my diet is probably about 75% raw (or more).

Is there such a thing as "vegan" amino acid supplements or do they originate from animal products? Can they be made from soy?
I have emailed several companies that sell free form amino acids but have not heard back.

I know there are soy protein mixes but I'm not sure how good they are. Can anyone advise me to a good vegan soy protein mix?

I would appreciate any advice.

Thanks,
susan

I recommend tofu. Tofu is the most healthy and protien dense food you can eat.
It is also the best "soy protien mix" and is completely natural and vegan of course.

Haniska
Jan 29th, 2007, 03:59 PM
Veggiegirl77 why don't you try logging your food intake at www.mypyramidtracker.gov (http://www.mypyramidtracker.gov) (I use this and it is free) or fitday to see if you are meeting your protein/other needs? I always get around 76-96 grams of protein a day. At your weight I wonder if you are getting enough calories?

veggirl77
Jan 30th, 2007, 02:24 PM
Thanks for all the great advice. I appreciate it.

I would like to say, I do agree Fifty9, that eliminating animal products does not equal a healthy diet. I have been vegan since I was 12 years old and have read a lot on the subject......and at 47, I do know a lot about a healthy diet. I have 7 children, and most of my children were over 10 lbs! I am back to my weight before I had kids and that all came about from my healthy diet.
I am however looking to develop just a little muscle definition in my arms and chest and was looking for the best way to go about that. I thought supplementing with aminio acids or soy protein shakes would be the way to go.

My diet has evolved over the years into one that is about 75% raw. I do eat a lot of nuts and seeds, daily, but do not eat tofu (dont' like it).

Thanks again for all the advice.
Susan