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cedarblue
Feb 5th, 2007, 01:37 PM
I have no interest in getting Heart Disease, Osteoperosis, Cancers and so on Organic or not.
hear hear! :)
Korn
Feb 5th, 2007, 02:44 PM
Hi Purple, have you seen our 'Vegans and eggs' (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1370)-thread?
Re. killing someone for food... when the vegetarian movement was born, all available meat, all eggs were organic. Organic and meat = two different topics, actually. Vegans and vegetarians don't eat meat because the animals are not organic - we just don't see how we have the right to kill an animal (organic or not) and eat it. We should respect others' right to decide if they want to live or become food, and just like humans, animals and birds prefer to live.
!!
Feb 5th, 2007, 02:54 PM
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Korn
Feb 5th, 2007, 03:21 PM
If there was any concrete evidence on organic meat I'm sure he'd listen! As you say, it's not happy, it's dead. That should be evidence enough! Ask him what he thinks of cannibals who only eat meat from happy humans... :)
!!
Feb 5th, 2007, 03:30 PM
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Korn
Feb 5th, 2007, 03:55 PM
The fact that 1) they die and 2) the suffer first should be more than enough... Hens aren't meant to produce food for humans, and every time we remove an egg from an organic hen, organic/free-range or not, it produces more eggs, and ends up with over-producing eggs, bleeding etc.
I wouldn't try to 'counter it' - he just doesn't seem to understand that organic-non-organic is a totally different topic, and nobody else can understand it for him. :)
He has no issues with them being dead That (his comment) is the most classical of all non-vegan comments: "I don't have a problem with animals suffering"... The most important point is that they (the animals) have 'problems', not if he has problems or not!
!!
Feb 5th, 2007, 04:16 PM
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Purple
Feb 5th, 2007, 05:08 PM
Cheers for the responses guys! Just checked out the organic chicken link. Still no information on how much space they get (other than they're allowed out) and obviously zero information on how they're killed. Are they still killed using the process as mention before? (electrocution, boiling water etc).
Obviously, I totally get that you shouldn't eat animals regardless. I guess what partly sparked this was that silly BBC thing about veggies eating organic meat :rolleyes:
Are organic chickens ever de-beaked?
herbwormwood
Feb 5th, 2007, 05:11 PM
Its not relevant in a vegan sense whether meat, milks or eggs are organic or not. Vegans don't use animal products.
herbwormwood
Feb 5th, 2007, 05:14 PM
Cheers for the responses guys! Just checked out the organic chicken link. Still no information on how much space they get (other than they're allowed out) and obviously zero information on how they're killed.
That web site states
"Also, on Soil Association registered farms, the number of chickens housed in a single shed is restricted to 1,000. A non-organic intensive chicken farm may have as many as 40,000 in the same shed."
(my emphasis)
Purple
Feb 5th, 2007, 05:53 PM
Yeah I noticed that. So they basically have 40 times more space than a battery/free-range chicken? (which isn't much).
I might have explained myself badly. I'm Vegan, I don't plan on eating any meat/dairy/eggs, organic or otherwise - ever.
I'm merely trying to get as much information about organic farming (the more negative the better) so that when the non-vegans say "what's wrong with organic meat?" I can tell them.
Telling them "eating meat is wrong" doesn't work. Listing all the reasons why organic meat is merely the food industry pulling a fast one, and it's still not much 'better', works more.
Cheers for the help though Worm Wood. All I need to do now is find out how big a "shed" is, and divide that by 1,000 :)
Have there been any under-cover investigations of organic meat/dairy farms and discovered any 'shocking truths'? (like all those other videos that work so well). I had a look at home, but couldn't find much. Maybe I'll hit you tube when I get home tonight.
RedWellies
Feb 5th, 2007, 06:14 PM
Are organic chickens ever de-beaked?
I don't know for sure but I would think not because one of the points of giving them more room is that they don't peck at each other.
Barley
Feb 5th, 2007, 06:17 PM
Hi Purple, have you seen our 'Vegans and eggs' (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1370)-thread?
Re. killing someone for food... when the vegetarian movement was born, all available meat, all eggs were organic. Organic and meat = two different topics, actually. Vegans and vegetarians don't eat meat because the animals are not organic - we just don't see how we have the right to kill an animal (organic or not) and eat it. We should respect others' right to decide if they want to live or become food, and just like humans, animals and birds prefer to live.
Korn - you have a way of putting things across so well:)
Yogini
Feb 6th, 2007, 01:52 PM
I don't know about other countries, but in the U.S., "organic" doesn't mean dip squat in regards to how the animals were treated. It means no hormones or other unnatural substances were used in feeding/raising the animals.
Free-range tries to mean that the animals were not caged and had room to roam, but the term is not regulated. Nor is humane, cage-free, or anything like that. So when you see it on the package, you can't be sure the animal was "happy."
And, as many have pointed out, organic, free-range, or whatever, it's still dead. Or, in the case of eggs, they were stolen. (Chickens don't lay eggs for us to use.) My leading a happy life doesn't make it OK to shoot me in the head and eat my carcass. And just because I'm not using my ova doesn't mean they're here for others to take without my permission.
MarkAnthony
Feb 7th, 2007, 04:04 PM
I don't have an ethical issue with eating eggs that are produced by chickens in genuine organic and free range conditions, that are well cared for and are never slaughtered, but I still almost certainly wouldn't eat them if the opportunity arose. I think it's that I don't really perceive them as food anymore, likewise with dairy, honey and meat.
Korn
Feb 7th, 2007, 04:50 PM
I don't have an ethical issue with eating eggs that are produced by chickens in genuine organic and free range conditions ...another thing to consider is what the hen would have answered - if she could talk - if we asked her if she had an issue with having 200 menstrual periods a year instead of 10 - which she would have had if humans wouldn't take the eggs away from her...
herbwormwood
Feb 9th, 2007, 03:21 PM
Telling them "eating meat is wrong" doesn't work. Listing all the reasons why organic meat is merely the food industry pulling a fast one, and it's still not much 'better', works more.
If people don't care much about animal welfare maybe they will listen more to arguments about how any kind of meat is bad for health and contributes to heart disease, diabetes, strokes and cancer, whether organic or not. I have recently finished reading "The China Study" by Colin Campbell, which is pretty convincing on this point and aimed at non vegans. Unfortunately some of his data comes from animal experiments, so may be offensive to some vegans. However there is a lot on the internet about the health risks of meat and dairy.
Haniska
Feb 10th, 2007, 08:52 PM
I wish they'd put a warning on packets of Meat, like the cigarette ones, something like:
'WARNING, THIS MEAT MAY DAMAGE YOUR HEALTH - AND CERTAINLY DAMAGED THE HEALTH OF THE ANIMAL INVOLVED'.
My dad's gf asked me if I ate fish. She said "But I thought that fish is good for you!?" To which I replied, "It is not good for the fish."
Has anyone had the thought cross their mind that by trying to eat a healthier diet some people are eating more poultry and fish and thereby causing more deaths? You know, because you can get more meat out of a larger animal than a smaller one.
Pob
Mar 21st, 2007, 12:53 PM
If it made the difference between someone providing a home to rescued/retired battery chickens or not, then it's acceptable to me personally that that person eats the eggs, provided that they look after the chicken even when it stops laying. They shouldn't label themselves as vegan, though.
If someone went out and specifically bought a female egg laying chicken, then that would be wrong. The seller would have killed the male chicks, and they would be supporting them with their money and encouraging them to keep doing it.
aubergine
Mar 22nd, 2007, 03:27 PM
I was under the impression that in the wild chickens eat their own eggs to make up the nutrients they lose when laying.
Pob
Mar 22nd, 2007, 04:44 PM
Hmmm - that was in reply to someone saying they wanted a "pet" chicken and asking if it was OK to eat the eggs. But that post was not moved here too.
I meant that it would be better for a battery chicken to live out the rest of her live relatively free, even if that was at the cost of her eggs being eaten. That doesn't mean that I think eating eggs is the right (or vegan) thing to do.
I'm not sure that battery chickens behave exactly like wild chickens anymore. I wouldn't expect wild chickens to produce large numbers of unfertilized eggs. Someone with rescue chickens can probably elaborate more.
veglover89
Apr 8th, 2007, 10:31 AM
by the way, how does one go about adopting their own resuce chicken/turkey cos i would like to give a farm animal a home at sum point?!
Klytemnest
Aug 12th, 2007, 11:37 PM
I was just wondering what other vegans thought of Organic/free range meat. Veganism is best but I know loads of people who just would never become vegan. The most to hope from them is that they make some effort to source their meat instead of getting facory farming which I feel is much much crueller then organic or free range meat.
I also think anyone who starts sourcing their meat is going in the right direction. It annoys me sometimes when some people seem to put all meat in the same catagree as it's likely to put people off doing anything at all if a switch from battery to organic/free range is not incouraged.
Organic meat is very expensive so people will naturally have to eat less meat. Which means they get to sample more veggie/vegan food and hopefully they decide meat is too expensive and decide to become veggie/vegan instead.
Plus Organic/free range meat is good for our carniverous/omnivoure pets.
(I meant to make this a poll but doesn't seem to have worked this time)
I just remember Alicia Silverstone's words that it does not have to be an all-or-nothing kind of deal. Yes, ideally everyone ought to be vegan. But it took me 37 years to finally get there. It would be unreasonable of me to demand that everyone become vegan immediately. It takes time. And buying organic meat and free-range eggs is indeed a step in the right direction. It decreases the amount of suffering in the world.
Back in the spring of 2006 a colleague/friend of mine took me to a vegan restaurant. She is not vegan herself, but is very health-conscious and sympathetic to the vegan cause. She was the first person to tell me about free-range eggs. I had no idea that ALL chickens were not free-range. Then I picked up a little brochure from the restaurant. And so I decided to only buy cage-free eggs. Then I also read the brochures on fish, beef, etc.. And within a month or so I had committed to a vegan diet. Then gradually veganism started to enter the rest of my lifestyle - vegan shampoo, conditioner, vegan shoes, vegan man-purse, vegan soap, vegan diswasher detergent...
So, for me at least, it was a step that soon led to veganism. It made me aware of all the suffering of innocent animals out there. It broke my heart. And I decided that the least I could do was not to contribute to it.
On the other hand, I worry that by buying organic meat and cage-free eggs, people's consciences will feel absolved of any further ethical responsibility. I hope people won't think that they have made it all better. Well, it is better, but the fact remains that organic meat and cage-free eggs come from enslaved animals that are eventually going to be slaughtered when they are no longer useful to their owners. I would not treat children that way, why would anyone else think it would be OK to treat animals that way?
Speciesism. Most of us are not even aware of it.
elve
Feb 21st, 2008, 10:26 PM
monkeys aside, I wouldn't have a problem with eggs if the chickens were ex-battery rescues otherwise destined for slaughter, and if they had a lovely lifestyle.....However having been vegan a couple of months I have gone RIGHT off eggs - yuk yuk yuk!!!!! :D If I want scrambled egg, I use tofu, if I want egg fried rice, I use tofu, if I want to make a cake, I use tofu - so I can't really see anything I'd want eggs for, except fried egg sarnies, but I can't say I fancy them right now anyways :)
horselesspaul
Feb 22nd, 2008, 03:10 AM
monkeys aside, I wouldn't have a problem with eggs if the chickens were ex-battery rescues otherwise destined for slaughter, and if they had a lovely lifestyle.....However having been vegan a couple of months I have gone RIGHT off eggs - yuk yuk yuk!!!!! :D If I want scrambled egg, I use tofu, if I want egg fried rice, I use tofu, if I want to make a cake, I use tofu - so I can't really see anything I'd want eggs for, except fried egg sarnies, but I can't say I fancy them right now anyways :)
Eggs, wherever sourced, are not vegan.
Hope this helps.
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