Vegans and eggs

[elve]

Eggs, wherever sourced, are not vegan.
Hope this helps.

yeah I know they're not vegan, but the spirit of veganism is surely to avoid harming or exploiting animals? Taking eggs from animals that don't need them, would lay them anyway, and who have in addition been saved from slaughter and a miserable battery farm existence, couldn't be classed as exploitation or harm.

Chickens lay an egg a day till they have a 'clutch' to hatch out - they wouldn't miss a couple of eggs from that clutch, especially if you replace them with china eggs. They're not intelligent enough to anticipate babies and then be disappointed when they don't get any - so where's the harm?

Not that I'd eat eggs anyway - yukky concept - but it does no harm if it's a rescue chicken IMO (whereas buying new chooks specially for free range eggs would of course involve breeding and culling males in the first place)

These ex-battery chickens are desperately in need of good homes - I'd love some myself if I had more room - but if I had to choose between binning their surplus eggs or eating them I guess I'd eat them if it didn't nauseate me.

[absentmindedfan]

The eggs aren't ours for taking. When I have chickens I'll hardboil the eggs and feed them back to the chickens so they can regain the energy and calcium they lost making them.

[xrodolfox]

My concept of veganism isn't just limited to least harm on the other; but also about keeping the mind and ethics of the vegan least harmed too.

So while in your scenario, an egg might not directly cause much harm to the chicken, your scenario does two things that do cause harm to the one taking the eggs and those in society around him/her. 1) It promotes the idea that humans continue to use animals without consent due to our differing abilities. 2) It promotes, tacitly, the idea that humans would need eggs at all by the shear effort of tricking the bird.

So in the short term, stealing that egg would cause no harm to the "emotional state" (if I can call it that) of the chicken. However, while little harm would be done to the bird, that harm easily translates to the taker of the egg, and the rest of society around that person.

For me, veganism isn't just about the relationship I have with animals, but also about the relationship the humans around me have with me as well as their relationship with animals. Veganism isn't just a personal life decision for me; it is a political act in solidarity with all animals not just in an effort to abstain from direct oppression, but to change the way all animals interact with one another.

So while the harm is minimized in your example, the relationship between "master" and "slave" isn't.

[horselesspaul]

The eggs aren't ours for taking. When I have chickens I'll hardboil the eggs and feed them back to the chickens so they can regain the energy and calcium they lost making them.
This.

[Fungus]

I just hate the assumption that 'eggs are there for us to eat [but on a side not I wont because I want to save the animals etc]'
I just dont see in any way why someone would want to in the first place .. but thats just me I guess ..
As I said, it assumes that we have the right to take the eggs anyway..

[missbettie]

I just can't ever get over the idea when people say that a certain animal isn't intelligent enough, so they can do certain things to it.

What about people? Some people aren't very intelligent, what about mentally disabled people? Can we do whatever we want to them? Can we kill them? No because that would be inmoral. So whats the difference with animals?

Or my other fav way to explain it, I don't know if any one here can speak or understand chinese...so if you can forgive me! But if you can't...then should we do away with everyone that speaks chinese? We can't understand them, so they must not have that high of intelligence (which is CERTAINLY UNTRUE).

To me its pretty much the same thing. You shouldn't exploit something or kill something because you deem them unintelligent or can't understand them.

I hope everyone understands my ramble, and my intention was not to offend anyone just so you know!

[snivelingchild]

Chickens lay an egg a day till they have a 'clutch' to hatch out - they wouldn't miss a couple of eggs from that clutch, especially if you replace them with china eggs.

They miss out on nutrients. It takes a LOT of calories and energy to lay an egg. Each egg takes an hour to lay. It's sort of like giving birth. Naturally, birds do not lay eggs every day. These birds were bred to do so. The thing about breeding, is that changes are made faster than evolution can correct for.

To keep a chicken at it's healthiest, you would have to give it conditions that would make it lay as few eggs as possible, and have a diet VERY rich in calories and nutrients.

Eggs are very dense with calories and nutrients, that's why they are so unhealthy for us. Allowing them to eat the egg is natural. This is what birds to with fertilized eggs that die, and what most mammals do with miscarriages and dead infants.

Plus, I don't like the idea of taking the eggs and replacing them with fakes. FIRSTLY, if you have to replace them, then surely they have a use beyond yours, and are not 'wasted' by someone not eating them. SECONDLY, it seems as wrong as taking a bees honey and replacing it with sugar (which also has health implications because the honey they make contains trace minerals on a scale thats influential in insects, that sugar does not).

Lastly, if a chicken does not eat its egg, it would decompose into the ground, contribute to nourishing the soil, which would contribute to healthy soil insects, and insects that feed off the plants that grow there, which benefits the chicken that eats the insects.

[Yoggy]

Eggs are very dense with calories and nutrients, that's why they are so unhealthy for us.

This is so true! I can't STAND the commercials touting eggs as "nature's perfect food" :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Aurore]

i agree. in fact since my childhood i have always been told i should never eat too much eggs because of that. i also hate when people take eggs for granted, you know. just because they come from chicken they think it's natural, and consequently normal, to eat eggs. since i was a kid i can't help but think if i hold an egg it will break and a chick will come out asking why i want to eat him. childish, but try eating one after.

[pavotrouge]

plus, eggs are disgusting. I've always felt weird eating them, they're slimy chicken's periods, at the least.

[Yoggy]

i agree. in fact since my childhood i have always been told i should never eat too much eggs because of that.

Unfortunately I just read a study that "debunks" the myth that eggs are bad for your cholesterol. They did a study that showed that people who ate one egg a day actually ended up with lower "bad cholesterol" than those who didn't. But I'm extremely reluctant to believe any conclusions without knowing the details of the study. Remember that "dairy helps you lose weight" study? They had 2 groups of overweight people: one group just exercised, and the other group exercised, ate yoghurt, and reduced their calorie intake. Then there was the study that said kids who eat cereal with milk for breakfast performed some % better in school and had more concentration -- compared with kids who didn't eat breakfast at all :rolleyes:.

[Aurore]

lol, true, you never know if the study's neutral or prejudiced. even if they're not bad for your cholesterol, eww for eggs.

[sandra]

I hope everyone understands my ramble, and my intention was not to offend anyone just so you know!

I understand you missbettie and agree with everything you have said! :)

[snivelingchild]

Unfortunately I just read a study that "debunks" the myth that eggs are bad for your cholesterol.

Unless they've debunked the fact that dietary cholesterol raises blood cholesterol, and that eggs contain cholesterol, then it's a pretty useless study. It's probably one of those that says 'it's not THAT bad for you' by redetermining what 'in moderation' is and trying to see JUST HOW MANY BAD THINGS WE CAN DO without being TOO BAD. As if disease happens precisely when habits cross the line of 'too bad'. Like that one cigarette that actually causes the lung cancer, or that one ray of sun that causes skin cancer. It has nothing to do with your body as a whole, NO! it's individual actions that determine your health.

[emmy]

It's unethical to eat eggs whether the chickens are being reared well or not. Vegans do not eat eggs! End of story!

[seitan]

yeah I know they're not vegan, but the spirit of veganism is surely to avoid harming or exploiting animals? Taking eggs from animals that don't need them, would lay them anyway, and who have in addition been saved from slaughter and a miserable battery farm existence, couldn't be classed as exploitation or harm.

.

so, i guess youd be happy to eat roadkill too, or your dog when it dies of old age?

meat, eggs and dairy are NOT food.

[seitan]

Unfortunately I just read a study that "debunks" the myth that eggs are bad for your cholesterol. They did a study that showed that people who ate one egg a day actually ended up with lower "bad cholesterol" than those who didn't. But I'm extremely reluctant to believe any conclusions without knowing the details of the study. Remember that "dairy helps you lose weight" study? They had 2 groups of overweight people: one group just exercised, and the other group exercised, ate yoghurt, and reduced their calorie intake. Then there was the study that said kids who eat cereal with milk for breakfast performed some % better in school and had more concentration -- compared with kids who didn't eat breakfast at all :rolleyes:.

im always sceptical with these studies, as they are more than likely carried about by the industries themselves.

[Yoggy]

Unless they've debunked the fact that dietary cholesterol raises blood cholesterol, and that eggs contain cholesterol, then it's a pretty useless study. It's probably one of those that says 'it's not THAT bad for you' by redetermining what 'in moderation' is and trying to see JUST HOW MANY BAD THINGS WE CAN DO without being TOO BAD. As if disease happens precisely when habits cross the line of 'too bad'. Like that one cigarette that actually causes the lung cancer, or that one ray of sun that causes skin cancer. It has nothing to do with your body as a whole, NO! it's individual actions that determine your health.

I found a link to the article. (http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/reallife/story.html?id=6effbca9-3c92-4bfb-914e-0a74a0271843) Their "conclusion" is that dietary cholesterol can raise blood cholesterol, but it's too much saturated and trans fat that "generally contributes more" to unhealthy serum cholesterol levels. And "eating one egg a day isn't unhealthy for healthy adults". Sounds exactly what you said snivelingchild: they're saying that while it is bad for you, it's not that bad, and there are worse things to eat. And that if you're already healthy to begin with, eggs won't be bad for you :rolleyes:

[angelamc]

Unfortunately I just read a study that "debunks" the myth that eggs are bad for your cholesterol. They did a study that showed that people who ate one egg a day actually ended up with lower "bad cholesterol" than those who didn't. But I'm extremely reluctant to believe any conclusions without knowing the details of the study. Remember that "dairy helps you lose weight" study? They had 2 groups of overweight people: one group just exercised, and the other group exercised, ate yoghurt, and reduced their calorie intake. Then there was the study that said kids who eat cereal with milk for breakfast performed some % better in school and had more concentration -- compared with kids who didn't eat breakfast at all :rolleyes:.

Hardly anyone only eats 1 egg when they have eggs. It's they same way with that stupid dairy campaign. It makes me angry that these adds are so misleading about health. Most people who eat eggs have 2 or 3 at breakfast in the form of scrambled eggs or an omelet. Most people have no idea how "large" a single serving of dairy is. The average American consumes waaay more than the daily recommended allowance of dairy or eggs. What those adds should really be saying is, "studies show that people who don't over-eat have lower cholestrol and lower weight."
Duh.
And how can anything that contains as much cholesterol as an egg be touted as being "good for you"???
:confused:

[angelamc]

plus, eggs are disgusting. I've always felt weird eating them, they're slimy chicken's periods, at the least.

Agreed.
Eggs have a terrible after-taste! They're like morning-breath!

[Roxy]

Someone was bugging me the other day, about my veganism and went on to describe their "delicious" breakfast of fried eggs. I was annoyed at them, so told them that I hoped they liked their chicken's periods.

They of course were totally grossed out and so then I explained to them what an egg was, and just as I don't eat human periods, I don't eat chicken periods either.

They shut up after that. :D

[Korn]

monkeys aside, I wouldn't have a problem with eggs if the chickens were ex-battery rescues otherwise destined for slaughter, and if they had a lovely lifestyle.....

Hi Elve...
vegans don't see 'lovely lifestyle' as a valid reason or excuse to own, control or abuse birds, humans or animals, just like vegans don't think it's OK to kill and eat an animal 'because it have had a happy life, so what's wrong with it' - a commonly comment heard from non-vegans when eating wild animals are being discussed.

This opposition against ownership may be hard to understand, because an egg isn't part of a chicken's body, once it is outside. The chicken won't feel any pain if the egg is eaten, just like I won't feel any pain if someone eg. would cutting my hair. I still feel that what should happen with my hair or nails is up to me, and if it's true that shaving someone actually stimulates hair growth (I don't know if this is true), there is another parallel to laying eggs, because taking an egg from a chicken stimulates/increases egg production. I'd even say that even if stimulating/increasing the egg production would be an enjoyable, orgasmic experience for a chicken, her eggs would still not be ours more than the semen from a human orgasm/ejaculation would be for others to use freely - even if the male would enjoy the increased production of semen as a result of others 'taking' the semen he already produced. Veganism isn't only about suffering. I'm sore most girls wouldn't enjoy that that someone stole their eggs either, even if this would have been possible in a 100% painless manner.


A major problem for chicken is that an artificially high egg production actually causes pain, bleeding and is probably also contributing to increased risk of some of the complications some chicken experience, like eggs that are stuck inside the chicken, which can cause severe bleeding. Personally I wasn't aware of this until a occasionally saw an interview with someone working at a chicken farm which main job was to remove the blood from the eggs before they were sold.

A typical hen lays 256 (http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Feb04/Mickeyz0212.htm) eggs pr. year (1998), but in 1888, that number was 100. Gallus bankiva, also called Gallus Gallus or Red Jungle Fowl - the ancestor of most domestic chicken - lay from six to ten eggs a year. We have no right to do anything that will increase that number, and removing an egg from a chicken will influence it's egg production rate.

Regarding unfertilized eggs, you may have seen Sniv's post earlier in this thread about wild birds never laying eggs that aren't fertilized....

Natural instincts are lost under domestication, and while some domesticated breeds won't even sit on their eggs, wild birds normally work hard to protect their eggs.

Even if you would have an egg laying chicken that for some reason just couldn't stop producing eggs, it would be better (better than eating them) to give them to someone who eats eggs - this way they'd buy less eggs from factory farms or so called 'free range' farms. It would even be better to sell them to a health food store and buy vegan food for the money, and this way both support ethical food production and decrease amount of commercially produced eggs.

I'm closing this thread soon - please start a new one if you want to, but this has become so long that I guess many visitors won't even start reading it.

Here are some links about the free range myth:
"Free Range" Eggs - Can You Tell The Difference (http://www.peacefulchoices.com/free-range.html)?
The Faces of Free Range Farming. (http://peacefulprairie.blogspot.com/2007/11/faces-of-free-range-farming.html)

We also have this thread:

Why are organic eggs/meat unethical? (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=13662)

[angelamc]

Someone was bugging me the other day, about my veganism and went on to describe their "delicious" breakfast of fried eggs. I was annoyed at them, so told them that I hoped they liked their chicken's periods.

They of course were totally grossed out and so then I explained to them what an egg was, and just as I don't eat human periods, I don't eat chicken periods either.

They shut up after that. :D

You mean you don't eat your own period??
:confused: *puzzled*

menstrual jam...now available at whole foods next to to the eggs

[Yoggy]

Hardly anyone only eats 1 egg when they have eggs.

True, but I imagine that most people who eat eggs don't eat them every day, so they probably average about 1 a day. (I'm not defending the ridiculous "study", but I don't think that 1 egg a day is unrealistically low for most people who eat eggs).

[sandra]

People often forget though that there are eggs in other things they eat like biscuits and cakes. So, although they might only eat 1 egg a day, they are in fact eating a lot more in other types of food. :)