Vegans and eggs

[dreama]

I was just wondering what other vegans thought of Organic/free range meat. Veganism is best but I know loads of people who just would never become vegan. The most to hope from them is that they make some effort to source their meat instead of getting facory farming which I feel is much much crueller then organic or free range meat.

I also think anyone who starts sourcing their meat is going in the right direction. It annoys me sometimes when some people seem to put all meat in the same catagree as it's likely to put people off doing anything at all if a switch from battery to organic/free range is not incouraged.

Organic meat is very expensive so people will naturally have to eat less meat. Which means they get to sample more veggie/vegan food and hopefully they decide meat is too expensive and decide to become veggie/vegan instead.

Plus Organic/free range meat is good for our carniverous/omnivoure pets.

(I meant to make this a poll but doesn't seem to have worked this time)

[PinkFluffyCloud]

Well, at the end of the day Meat is always dead animal, and the animal is butchered the same way, isn't it???

Of course, I much prefer to see animals free-ranging, and like you say, at least the minority of people are giving some thought to what they eat.

On the other hand it gives a rather mixed message when the RSPCA are actively promoting Meat of any kind (as they do with Organic/Free-range), in my opinion. Kind of like saying that Domestic Violence is ok as long as it's only occasional. :(

[dreama]

I think that less unneccessary cruelty goes into killing organic meat althought they do still get killed.

I once went to an intensive pig unit. That's what decided me to source my meat and stop eating pork. I wouldn't have become a veggie though as I used to believe I had a RIGHT to eat meat.

I don't know about RSPCA. They are doing something and getting unpopular because of it. I was more influenced by Compasion in world farming. They are running an 'eat less meat' compaign. Their method worked with me wheras I wouldn't have listened to someone telling me 'meat is murder'.

At the end of the day the sooner factory farming is banned the better. If RSPCA and compason for world farming's method works better for some people (which it did for me)that should be incouraged too.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

I wish they'd put a warning on packets of Meat, like the cigarette ones, something like:
'WARNING, THIS MEAT MAY DAMAGE YOUR HEALTH - AND CERTAINLY DAMAGED THE HEALTH OF THE ANIMAL INVOLVED'.

[dreama]

I wouldn't be against that. :) it would deffinately NOT go down with the meat industry at all who are busy telling everyone meat is good for you etc etc... lots of BS on 'healthy eating' seem to say you must eat meat. Including one in a braille magazine I get. I wrote to correct them but my letter was not published. They should at least tell people to source their meat. :mad:

Sadly not enough people bother. My dad eats some organic/free range meat but he eats battery too. Another meat eating friend says he would like meat to be free range but doesn't bother to do anything about it. I once got him some organic bacon in the hope the taste would perswade him to switch. He just said he could get them cheaper locally. I asked if they were also Organic/free range but he didn't know so they probably weren't. Unfortunately another meat eating friend told me she prefered the taste of battery chicken dispite knowing how cruelly they were treated (how depressing).

[Artichoke47]

Organic meat is not free-range, and there is no standard for the label "free-range," so neither mean anything to me, and besides, killing an animal is always wrong (to me, in my opinion) regardless of its life beforehand.

[feline01]

I think it was animals that were murdered :mad: . I think it's a big marketing gimmick to get people who think they are compassionate to continue eating corpses :mad: (I fell for it for a couple of years :( )

[Korn]

I was just wondering what other vegans thought of Organic/free range meat. Veganism is best but I know loads of people who just would never become vegan. The most to hope from them is that they make some effort to source their meat instead of getting facory farming which I feel is much much crueller then organic or free range meat.
If I were not against killing others for food, I'd probably agree that killing someone who had been eating organic food was much less cruel than killing someone who had been eating organic food. For someone who doesn't respect that an animal has a right to live, just like a human has (even if they are different), there might be a big difference between killing an organic/free range animal and another one. But, when it comes to life and death, just like in the case of killing a human, it's not really important from an ethical point of view if the one that was killed were living on organic health food or junk food before someone shot him. It's obvious that it's better to live as a free-range/organic human or animal than to be be captured and live on junk food, but when it comes to life and death, and especially death, there is no difference. If someone kills someone for his own pleasure or old habits, the victim is dead anyway.


I also think anyone who starts sourcing their meat is going in the right direction. There's also a rather realistic chance they they will not going in the right direction: they feel better if they switch to organic meat if they agree with you that one of the solutions is 'much, much less crueller' than the other, and the urge to change their lives might just disappear. Humans are known for being able to live their whole life continuing patterns they're not really happy with.


It annoys me sometimes when some people seem to put all meat in the same catagree as it's likely to put people off doing anything at all if a switch from battery to organic/free range is not incouraged. Do you really think a non-vegan really would be put off by knowing that a vegan - that he doesn't agree with in the first place - consider a dead animal a dead animal independent on how it lived before it was killed? If a disagreement from someone he already disagrees with will keep him from doing anything at all, his motivation must be extremely low, and a possible change in his life wouldn't maybe last that long anyway.


Organic meat is very expensive so people will naturally have to eat less meat. In countries where they make alcohol or tobacco very expensive, one of the most important side effects is that the people who use this stuff get poorer.


Which means they get to sample more veggie/vegan food and hopefully they decide meat is too expensive and decide to become veggie/vegan instead. Or they will possibly avoid buying organic meat and continue buying non-organic meat instead.

The only way to real change is insight, not manipulating prices. If vegans should spend their time and energy on communicating a totally different kind of insight then they believe in, the result would be - less insight communicated. The meat industry, the sugar industry and the tobacco industry have been getting a lot of resistance lately, and the meat industry are probably willing to do whatever they can to keep the illusion 'eating meat is OK'-illusion alive, including giving the animals slightly better conditions. HAve you seen the thread about this topic, called 'What do you reckon the meat industry does to save itself (and fight veg*nism?)?' http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=804

[Korn]

...killing an animal is always wrong (to me, in my opinion) regardless of its life beforehand. It's wrong to you, in your opinion, and to all other vegans, in their opinions. And it's definitely wrong for those who get killed.

[Shisha Fiend]

On the other hand it gives a rather mixed message when the RSPCA are actively promoting Meat of any kind (as they do with Organic/Free-range), in my opinion. Kind of like saying that Domestic Violence is ok as long as it's only occasional. :(

Did anyone see Bill Bailey on Comic Aid (for the Tsunami Appeal)? He was talking about vegetarianism, it was quite funny I thought. Eg 'I'm a post-modern vegetarian- I eat meat ironically.'

Anyway he was like 'RSPCA monitored chicken always makes me laugh. I used to think, it's obviously not twenty-four hour, is it, this monitoring? Cos at some point someone's grabbed it, ripped its wings off, and wrapped them in cellophane. What was it, did they nip outside for a smoke or something? "Oh SHIT, we've lost another one!"'

I really liked that, I thought it showed up the whole doublethink of the stuff. I think Bill Bailey's pretty cool, he's always talking about vegetarianism, and veganism sometimes. He was going on about hunting too. Does anyone know if he's a veg*n?

xxx

[Artichoke47]

It's wrong to you, in your opinion, and to all other vegans, in their opinions. And it's definitely wrong for those who get killed.

Yeah. I was putting in a filter which I'll call "HTT-not," so somehow, even though I'm expressing my views pertaining to myself and speaking only for myself, I shouldn't be accused of being judgmental. I guess it doesn't happen on this site, but I sort of felt it coming. :) :D

[Gorilla]

i have heard of people who used to be vegetarian, but switched to eating organic meat because they believed it was morally acceptable. so in that case, it would actually be steering people even further away from the right direction. :(

also, organic animal farming, whilst probably being better conditions for animals, is actually worse for the environment, using up much more natural resources than factory farming. the animals are fed better, get more space and water, which means that production of organic meat is even more wasteful.

p.s. Shisha, i saw Bill Bailey live a couple of years ago and i don't believe he is veg*n but he's really funny.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

Good Points, Gorilla. ;)

[dreama]

I disagree. Organic is better for the environment and they have higher standards of animal care. Of course killing is always killing which is why I'm vegan but it's the evil factory farming that we should focus on. I'm all for CIWF which say to stop eating meat but if you won't at leat eat Organic/free range.

Some vegitarians may decide to switch to organic meat but I can imagine the reverse happening more often. When I was a fishitarian I wasn't against genuine organic/free range meat at all but the price and the uncertainty of wether it really was genuinely free range kept me from eating meat (except sea fish. I gave that up at the same time as eggs and dairy products).

The point is factory farming is much much worse so we should get it banned first before we go on to anything else.

[gertvegan]

I was just wondering what other vegans thought of Organic/free range meat.There is something better, and they are being deprived of it. Why should an organic / free-range animal be any more deserving of an unnecessary death than any other animal ?


Organic meat is very expensive so people will naturally have to eat less meat. Which means they get to sample more veggie/vegan food and hopefully they decide meat is too expensive and decide to become veggie/vegan instead.Even when healthy foods are affordable and accessible people continue to eat unhealthily, experts have warned. Trials of supplying health foods to communities without good access have disappointing results, according to the British Medical Journal. Cost isn't the issue.

Nonhuman animals deserve to live according to their own natures, free from harm, abuse, and exploitation. This goes further than just saying that we should treat animals well while we exploit them, or before we kill and eat them. It says animals have the right to be free from human cruelty and exploitation, just as humans possess this right.

[gertvegan]

They were strutting in the yard, rolling in the dirt, just being chickens. Now I'm no expert on the state of mind of chickens, but those chickens were not unhappy in any way, and the eggs were just a by-product.

Personally, I think the chickens could care less if their eggs were sold. But if you think that the chickens feel exploited, that's fineJust a by-product ?? Were there equal numbers of male and female chickens ?? Wild hens rarely lay unfertilized eggs don't they ?? Isn't it the ability to keep laying that the egg farmer exploits and in doing so frustrating one of the hen's most fundamental instincts, to reproduce ??

[Kelzie]

No, there were no males. I don't know about wild hens not laying unfertilized eggs, but these hens were. And if you became a vegan with the view of never exploiting animals, than eating those eggs would not only by un-vegan, but wrong. I became a vegan to minimize animal suffering. So me eating those eggs was certainly not vegan, but it wasn't wrong *for me*.

[John]

And what do you think happened to those males? And what will happen to these hens? Can you say for sure that they will die of old age? Of course they won't. You let someone undermine your values in the manner that someone would use sophism to outsmart a child.

In any case, vegans don't believe in exploiting animals. Sure, some people have no choice but to exploit animals but I, as a vegan have a choice and so do you.

[Shisha Fiend]

I think if a vegan ate them it could be the start of the 'slippery slope' thing - if you eat eggs, why not try a few other similar products.
If you eat eggs, you are not a vegan.
I don't see veganism as an exclusive club, I see it as a lifestyle definition - you're either vegan or not. :)

Guess I'm not a vegan then?
Probably about once a year, I eat eggs which my mum's friend has given me. She has pet chickens, they lay eggs, she and her family use those eggs. Occasionally she will give me a box of them- like I said, about once a year.
I really do not see the problem with it- though it depends on why you are a vegan I suppose, if it's for health reasons you'd probably not want to eat eggs.
I am definitely NOT on a slippery slope, or even a gentle incline. :)

I don't feel it's exploiting the hens. I also do not come up against any omnis calling me a hypocrite or what have you for eating them. I've never seen a problem with it. I think it's probably a personal issue. Plus I don't know if I'd eat them again cos I'd probably feel sick this time round, it's been so long.

[John]

No, you are not a vegan, Shisha Fiend. You are an ovo-vegetarian.
It's very simple. Vegans don't (intentionally) eat eggs.
If you ate chicken, in a way you wouldn't be hurting the chicken either.

If you eat eggs, please don't tell people that you are a vegan. I'm not condemning you. I'm not telling you how to live you life. I'm not making you walk the plank. I just ask that if you respect those of us who try our best to avoid all animal products, you will not try to change the meaning of the word "vegan" to suit your lifestyle. Thank you.

[kokopelli]

The reason for not eating eggs is, naturally chicks of both sexes are equally likely to hatch from a fertilised egg, but chicken farmers only need hens to produce more eggs, so the male chicks are usually killed at birth and sold as pet food, to people who keep birds of prey or snakes.

It's a bit like with milk, only cows are needed for the herd, so the male calves are usually killed soon after birth, for veal.

I have a friend who keeps chickens, who is a vegetarian, and she ended up with lots of cockerels in her garden, because she didn't want to kill them. Which isn't really practical in the long term, particularly for commercial producers.

I looked after her chickens for her once, and I was glad when she took them back. They have some gross habits, I saw one of them eating a dead mouse.

[John]

Of course I would! That's nothing like eating an egg from a pet chicken. The chicken would have to be killed for one thing, which cannot be done without, well, killing it. Which is harming it. How is eating these eggs the same thing?

Once the chicken is dead she can't feel a thing. You did not kill her so why not eat her flesh? Maybe the chicken even died of natural causes.


I do avoid animal products, because I know they are obtained by harming the animals, treating them in a purely disgusting way. I have a moral reason for not eating, lactic acid for example. Which most non-vegans wouldn't think twice about (unless they had an allergy).

Comercial lactic acid is made by bacteria, not milk. Lactic acid has nothing to do with this.


You could say I am not a vegan because I ate these eggs a year ago, but then again, 14 years ago I ate a piece of meat. Does that mean I'm not a vegetarian?
Or is it cos hypothetically speaking, if the eggs were there I would eat them? Therefore even though I do not use/consumen any animal products, the fact that I might means I'm not vegan?

You are not a vegan because you eat eggs. You find nothing wrong with eating eggs and you plan to eat them again.



What I'm really asking for is a reason why not to eat the eggs? If this is explained to me and I agree with I will stop eating them, but at the moment I can't think of a reason not to.
xxx

Have you read the rest of this thread? The eggs do not belong to you. They belong to the chickens.

It's fine if you want to eat eggs but please don't drag our name down with you.

[Shisha Fiend]

The reason for not eating eggs is, naturally chicks of both sexes are equally likely to hatch from a fertilised egg, but chicken farmers only need hens to produce more eggs, so the male chicks are usually killed at birth and sold as pet food, to people who keep birds of prey or snakes.

It's a bit like with milk, only cows are needed for the herd, so the male calves are usually killed soon after birth, for veal.

I know that, of course. That's why I don't drink milk. It's also why I don't eat eggs (except these ones we are now debating!).

However, I know this woman has only female hens, so there is no question of fertilized eggs/male chicks.
So what is the problem with eating these eggs?

[feline01]

Its a menstrual period and its that chicken's menstrual period. Why would you want to eat it? If it's because it tastes good, then your opening the floodgates for vegans to eat a piece of roadkill because it tastes good or a free gift of murdered animal because it tastes good. The definition of vegan precludes consuming animal products even if one thinks it is justified.

[Shisha Fiend]

Its a menstrual period and its that chicken's menstrual period. Why would you want to eat it?

Plenty do. I know what an egg is. Seeds are plant embryos, I'd still eat them. I suppose because it tastes nice, yes, although I have to say the idea makes my stomach turn now, recently I've become revolted by any dairy or eggs- before only meat used to do that to me (I've been vegetarian since I was four!) but now dairy and eggs are starting to. So for that reason I would not eat the eggs- although ethically, I cannot see a problem.


If it's because it tastes good, then your opening the floodgates for vegans to eat a piece of roadkill because it tastes good or a free gift of murdered animal because it tastes good.

This is what I'm saying. I don't see how it does that. It doesn't 'lead on' to anything, there are no floodgates. My first vegan Christmas I was at my uncle's, who had no clue about veganism. I basically survived on the bare minimum for a week- half a nut loaf and two potatoes is probably all I ate the whole time. Eating these eggs doesn't make me at all inclined to say 'screw it, I'll eat meat just the once.' It just doesn't.


The definition of vegan precludes consuming animal products even if one thinks it is justified.

But why? Isn't that pretty pointless? To not eat something, just because? For no real reason?

I really want to understand the problem with eating the eggs- I mean one that doesn't involve slippery slopes, or confusion over definitions. Like an actual reason to be against them initially, like we have for the meat, dairy, and egg industries. Once I've got that, I'll stop eating them- which is pretty hypothetical because I don't plan to eat any more anyway for taste reasons.

xxx