Vegans and eggs

[kokopelli]

I know that, of course. That's why I don't drink milk. It's also why I don't eat eggs (except these ones we are now debating!).

However, I know this woman has only female hens, so there is no question of fertilized eggs/male chicks.
So what is the problem with eating these eggs?

She had to get her hens from somewhere, and somewhere along the line, it's inevitable that culling of male chicks was involved. If she allows her hens to hatch some of their eggs to replace her existing hens when they get too old (does she kill them when they become 'unproductive', BTW, or does she carry on feeding them regardless?), she will either have cockerels she doesn't need, or she'll have to kill them when they're chicks, just like commercial producers. If she's been keeping hens for a while, and has no males, she must have been culling male chicks, otherwise she would now have a more-or-less equal numbers of hens and cocks. Cocks are a nuisance, I don't think anyone would really want many of them, because of their crowing. Actually I've got the feeling my friend may have accidentally-on-purpose allowed a fox to get at hers, thus solving the problem.

Anyway, eggs are full of cholesterol. Is it that you really want to carry on eating them, or just that you don't like to refuse your relative's well-intentioned gift? ;)

[gertvegan]

If we are serious about animal rights, we have a responsibility to stop bringing them into existence for our purposes. We would stop bringing all domestic animals into existence for human purposes.

[gertvegan]

The hens are still young, but I expect she would buy new ones when they die- at which point your above ethical qualm comes into play.Buying another body doesn't sound like a practice a vegan would be involved in, imo.

[kokopelli]

If we are serious about animal rights, we have a responsibility to stop bringing them into existence for our purposes. We would stop bringing all domestic animals into existence for human purposes.

I totally agree. Wild, free animals could have their space back if it wasn't all cluttered up with human-manipulated domestic animals.

I'm glad you realise about the male chick thing now, Shisha Fiend. If they weren't being killed all the time, there'd be as many cocks as hens in the world. But of course that would never happen because it wouldn't be in the interest of humans.

And I don't know about your relative's chickens, but the ones I looked after were pretty horrible, really. Even though they had all the space they could use and ran free, etc., they still picked on the weakest one. The expression 'hen-pecked' doesn't come out of nowhere. One of the poor chickens constantly had a bald backside due to pecking by the others. I was really glad when my friend took them back, and as far as I'm concerned, keeping animals at all is a total pain. I'm glad I don't have cats anymore too, because now I get to see the wild birds, mammals, amphibians and reptiles without them getting killed by my pets.

And ALL animal products are actually an inefficient use of food, compared with eating the grain they're fed on directly. Even eggs, which are the most efficient form of animal protein.

Have you tried tofu 'scrambled eggs'? It's tasty on toast, and nicer than real eggs. :)

[John]

Sometimes it is, sometimes it comes from milk. Unless the source is marked on the ingredients, I won't eat lactic acid, in case it is made from milk. If you do, maybe you should call yourself a lacto-vegetarian rather than a vegan? :p

If you showed me any proof that any form of the food additive lactic acid is derived from milk, I would avoid it immediately.

On the other hand, we have given you plenty of reasons why eating eggs conflicts with vegan ethics but you still argue that vegans can eat eggs.

[gertvegan]

As I said before she has not allowed any of them to breed- there are no males in the equation.Not allowed! Kept! Surely this is frustrating one of the hen's most fundamental instincts, to reproduce ??

[kokopelli]

Do you have a mouse problem, just out of curiosity? I have found it impossible to stop mice getting at my food without a cat. Maybe that's just London for you.

Yeah, we get mice and voles, but we catch them with humane mousetraps and let them go away from the house...and that means we don't get little offerings of dead mice any more, like we used to do when we had cats. One time, my cat left a dead mouse in my wellington boot. :(

Your relative keeps the hens humanely, but as you acknowledged, there would inevitably have been killing of male chicks involved at some point, before she acquired the hens.

Whether you think it's ethical to eat their eggs or not is entirely up to you of course, but I agree with others, that eating eggs even from humanely kept animals can't really be described as vegan.

[Peas'nHominy]

I hate scrambled eggs! When I was four my dad was eating them and my brother suddenly threw up ino my dad's plate- when you see how similar the two things look, you are put of scrambled eggs for life. :D


Ha ha HA!! :D Ooooh, I'm laughing my head off!!!

My understanding is that a fundamental precept of veganism is abstaining from the dietary consumption of anything containing animal proteins, even though there are various reasons why each person has turned to the lifestyle. Tails, it sounds like your friend's got a great heart, but she ain't vegan. She's ovo-vegetarian, by definition. :)


But is it ethical?? Well, I might could be convinced otherwise on this, but I'm thinking it depends. If I have to choose between feeding my child an egg and letting him die of starvation, then I'd feed him the nasty thing out of desperation. But only out of desperation. I mean think about it - it's naaassstyyy! :eek: (imo)

[John]

"Lactic acid (B): acid produced by the fermentation of milk sugar but also by fermentation in pickles, cocoa and tobacco"

Lactic acid is present in milk, yes. Everyone knows that. But as far as I know, they don't take lactic acid out of milk and add it to vegetarian food. I've actually checked into it. Good thing I don't eat anything with lactic acid anyway. If I knew that all you needed was a list with "eggs" written on it, I would have provided that.

In any case, you are not a vegan. You are a parasite to chickens. You cannot say, "I am healthy without eating flesh." You can pretend to be a vegan but if you eat eggs you are not. Let the chickens eat their own eggs.

[Kelzie]

C'mon John, you don't have to be so mean. Just because somebody hasn't reached where you are in the vegan journey doesn't give you the right to call someone a parasite, or in my case, saying I was outwitted like a child. The people that haven't reached your level of "perfection" yet need your support and encouragement, not your scorn. What convinced me that I was wrong about eggs wasn't yours or Mr Pearbody's somewhat harsh messages. It was Korn nicely agreeing to change the subject, and then just asking one question very nicely.

[John]

I'm not being mean. I would rather be discussing other things and conversing with vegans but when someone comes on a vegan forum and says something like, "I'm a vegan, but I eat eggs" I feel that it is my duty to at least set the record straight.

Fiend is a stubborn person who wants to change the definition of "vegan" to suit her lifestyle. That offends me.

And I never said that I am a perfect person but it is pretty simple to stick to the basic rules of veganism like "no eggs."

[Kelzie]

Calling someone a parasite is mean, whether they have offended you or not. You offended me when you said I was "outwitted like a child", but I didn't start slinging hurtful names. In fact, when I first asked questions about ethical eggs, I agreed that vegans don't eat eggs, which seems to be your main problem with fiend.

As to your belief that fiend is a stubborn individual, it seems that he/she is an intelligent person that believes her/his opinions when he/she can prove them. When he/she can't ("the fact that buying the hens in the first place supports the egg industry indirectly, and the fact that buying any animal undermines its status as an individual being. I have acknowledged both points") she acknowledges it. That does not seem like a stubborn person to me.

I am not trying to attack you. I believe you are a smart guy (as shown by your opinion on Bush : )). I was a lurker for a while, and the reason I didn't want to start posting, was a thread I read were some poor part-time vegan was asking for help and was flamed off the forum. I (obviously) overcame the fear, and I'm glad I did, but I really second guessed my decision after posting my view on eggs and reading the responses. I know people usually don't mean to be critical, and that people here obviously feel strongly about their beliefs. But if responses to people who do not share your belief had a little more tact in them, this place might feel a little safer to newbies (like me ; )).

[Astrocat]

hmmm...

parasite n.
(1) an animal or plant that lives in or on a host (another animal or plant); the parasite obtains nourishment from the host without benefiting or killing the host

(2) Something that lives in, with, or on another organism and obtains benefits from the host, which it usually injures.

(3) an organism that grows and feeds in or on another organism without benefiting the host organism. Most parasites are harmless, but some are deadly.

(4) An organism that lives on or in an organism of a different species (the host) and derives nutrients at the expense of the host.

If people aren;t actually living on the hens then they wouldn;t be parasitical by some definitions of parasites, although it is true that they are obtaining nourishment from the host without benefitting or killing the host.

However, many do live with the birds or animals they nourish themselves with (or pay others to raise them / "live with" them on their behalf) and often do injure the host.

I'm not trying to be mean - I just looked up the definition of "parasite" and this is what i found -
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&oi=defmore&q=define:parasite

As for scrambled eggs, heh ;) well, the first thing i had with eggs in - and the last as it happened to be - after it dawned on me what eggs actually were (ie waste menstrual produce and technically flesh) was scrambled eggs.
I didn;t even usually eat scrambled eggs either, but i reckoned the texture might put me off them (i really didn;t want to eat them at all after starting to think about what i was eating) but hadn;t reckoned on quite how much it would... something about that spongy consistency really hit the message home for me and i was like....uh... I don;t think I'll eat eggs any more now.

And I didn't :) it was easy-peasy too, even though i used to eat quite a lot of eggs.
;) even free-range local hens just put menstrual waste in their eggs... even putting ethical issues asicde that would be kind of a hard fact to swallow if i wanted to keep eating 'em, you know ?

[Kelzie]

Sorry Shisha:) I just used Fiend cause it sounded fiesty;). I was in the same place you were four or so days ago. I agree that it is not really clear why vegans can't eat ethically obtained eggs. After some..."convincing" by members of this forum, I've decided that chickens were not put on the earth to provide humans with eggs. Therefore, while the chickens might not mind it, eating eggs is using an animal to further your own human needs.

[Shisha Fiend]

Sorry Shisha:) I just used Fiend cause it sounded fiesty;). I was in the same place you were four or so days ago. I agree that it is not really clear why vegans can't eat ethically obtained eggs. After some..."convincing" by members of this forum, I've decided that chickens were not put on the earth to provide humans with eggs. Therefore, while the chickens might not mind it, eating eggs is using an animal to further your own human needs.

Hmm, but I find that a little tenuous. I'm not saying it isn't valid, but when my dietary/lifestyle habits come under the microscope (as they often do) not eating rescue eggs is something that I would find really hard, if not impossible, to defend.

I don't see the harm in consuming what is effectively a waste product from the chickens, as long as they are not being exploited to produce it. For example, do you feel that if a peacock drops a feather, it is unethical to pick up that feather, take it home, and pin it on the wall? After all, in your opinion wouldn't that be 'using an animal to further your own human needs'? :)

As for 'convincing', I am not sure why you put it in quotes but if you feel you were pressurised or emotionally blackmailed to change your eating habits, how worthwhile is the change, really? (If you don't and I have misunderstood it, sorry!)

xxx

[Kelzie]

Ummm...yeah I got nothin. As for "you feel you were pressurised or emotionally blackmailed to change your eating habits, how worthwhile is the change, really?" It wasn't the pressure or emotional blackmail that forced me to change my eating habits, it was Korn's question (well okay, this isn't a direct quote, but close enough): is it only about not causing pain? And that is why I changed my opinion. Veganism can't only be about not causing pain.

[Shisha Fiend]

Veganism can't only be about not causing pain.

Yes, I have just been reading over that thread in an attempt to understand the whole 'rescue hens eggs' thing. I believe the thread Korn was referring to, which sparked the question 'is it only about not causing pain?' was asking if it was okay to kill fish as according to the poster they did not feel pain (untrue of course).

Obviously the answer was no, after all killing someone is killing someone, whether they feel pain or not. Therefore veganism is about respecting life, not just minimising suffering. However I don't see how consuming a waste product can be equated with killing an animal that does not feel pain (supposing such an animal existed).

xxx

[Kelzie]

I...umm...well, you see...damn I don't know. I knew I should have taken debate class...;) I guess the only thing I got is that the whole process of eating eggs, and raising chickens for eggs is wrong, and indirectly, eating eggs from any hen as supporting that system.

[Shisha Fiend]

I...umm...well, you see...damn I don't know. I knew I should have taken debate class...;) I guess the only thing I got is that the whole process of eating eggs, and raising chickens for eggs is wrong, and indirectly, eating eggs from any hen as supporting that system.

Yeah, like I said I can see now how eating eggs from pet hens who were bought from a trader would support that system, and have decided not to eat them. But I can't see how eating eggs from rescue hens is doing the same thing- after all the very definition of a rescue hen surely implies an undermining of the egg industry?

It's frustrating for me as I can see there are many committed vegans, who I respect, who are against eating eggs from rescue hens- but I can't see why. I really want to understand before I make the decision myself to stop eating the eggs. As you said in a different thread, Kelzie- it would be wrong to stop eating the eggs, simply to conform to a definition of what a vegan is.
After all if a vegan indulges in a boycott which I find pointless, what is the problem in being told I am not a vegan?

However I feel that this is just not something most vegans would do, the whole vegan philosophy is structured and well thought out. I feel there must be a reason for this boycott but I can't understand it.
The only thing I can think of is that perhaps the concept of rescue hens has come into existence after veganism- because it's the vegans doing the rescuing- and so there is not a sound, thought out position on the ethics of eating their eggs. However surely if this was the case it would be a matter of each to his/her own and the camp would be split- yet I find it 100% against eating the eggs. So I assume there must be a reason, somewhere.

I just don't know what it is. Until I do, how can I defend a refusal to eat rescue hen eggs?

Someone enlighten me please!

xxx

[snivelingchild]

As for the people eating the eggs helping the hens, the eating of the eggs doesn't actually help, the money does, and if those people did so to support the hens, they could simply donate money.

As for the whole issue, in my mind, it's not your place to decide whether or not they need or want them. I wouldn't take them away even to feed dogs. They may not want them at all, but you can't ask and know for sure. Nature has it's own way of taking care of the eggs. The hens may eat them for a nutritional boost, or they may let them provide sustenence for the earth. It may not be the worst of crimes, but in my book, it is still a negative, a very low negative, but a negative when I want to be producing positives, not neutrals.

Find a way to ask her, and let HER give them to you.

[Shisha Fiend]

As for the people eating the eggs helping the hens, the eating of the eggs doesn't actually help, the money does, and if those people did so to support the hens, they could simply donate money.

Yes, but eating the eggs doesn't hurt, and a lot of people are not going to just give money to centres for rescued chickens. The eggs can be a vital means of funding these places.
Also they can be given away or eaten, if the rescued chickens are kept as pets- in this case the people eating the eggs are benefitting the chickens by keeping them in a safe and happy environment.


As for the whole issue, in my mind, it's not your place to decide whether or not they need or want them.

As a child, I used to stay with my grandmother in the country occasionally, and once when I was there she was taking care of her neighbour's chickens. I was only about six so I didn't have the knowledge to query the ethical background to these chickens (as regards cockerels), but I know they were housed in a clean, spacious, safe hen-house, and allowed to roam free. Anyway every morning while I was staying with her I used to go across the road to the hens and take the eggs.
It seemed they didn't mind at all, and though obviously I cannot prove that, when I am debating with omnis I point to animals' behaviour when asked for 'proof' that they are in pain- and I wouldn't want to jeopardise this argument by stating that even though hens appear happy they may stil be suffering. Otherwise you could say even though they appear to be suffering they may still be happy. :)

As for deciding whether or not they need or want them, to me it comes back to the same question about the peacock's feather- would you take it home with you or leave it where it was? I cannot see an ethical reason not to take it with you, but surely you can't know 100% that the peacock doesn't need or want it.

I hope I'm not coming across as rude, Sniv. I just want to make sure I have this thing clear in my mind. :)

xxx

[Kelzie]

My mom uses manure in her garden....for all we know, the cow may have wanted it to stay where it was dropped :D

[snivelingchild]

Well, I've never heard of a feather being reused by a bird or manure by a cow, but occasionally a hen eats her eggs. That's good enough for me, it is very healthy for them.

[Kelzie]

Some animals eat their feces. Not sure if cows do though...

[drummer]

Who wants to eat part of a chicken's reproductive system anyway? In principal it's no different from eating a human egg that will turn into a baby as well. I think it's disgusting a sick to eat any form of eggs even if the animals are treated well. I also think that people who see it as 'normal' need pyschological help.