Vegans and eggs

[snivelingchild]

Hmm, maybe someone can start a poll or add a poll to this asking what poeple think is the best solution for the eggs of a rescued hen who does not brood; take the eggs and eat them, take the eggs and throw them away, take the eggs and bury them, bury them in the same area they are laid, leave them to rot or be eaten by the hens (considering they all have their beaks intact), hard-boil them and feed them back, etc.

[Kelzie]

Wow PeasnHominy, that's a very unique view point that you have. Do you follow a specific religion, or is it more of a personal belief? Must be hard for you either way...I admire you for it. :)

Here's my conclusion on chickens eating their eggs (after doing some research on animals eating their own young). It's both natural and unatural. Animals do occasionally eat their own young in nature, but it's not very common (obviously or the species wouldn't last long ;) ). The reason it happens is because either the mother is to young and inexperienced to care for her young, or she is suffering from malnutrition. The malnutrition bit is interesting, because it seems that it seems it is done more for the planets benefit than the animals. Rabbits eat their own young, but it is actually bad for them, since they are natural herbivores. But if the mother is malnutritioned, it seems as if she somehow understands that her environment can barely support her, let alone her offspring. So that seems to be the reason that chickens eat their eggs if they are suffering from malnutrition.

Any of this is, of course, open to debate ;)

[John]

I don't think that there is any need for a poll. This is not about opinions.

[gertvegan]

I'd say that many very good posts have already been made on the topic of why not to eat eggs from chickens (rescued or not). The topic may well continue to go around and around, and then around a bit more, until the ligtbulb goes on, imo.

[John]

I agree, Gert. We have provided more than enough evidence that eating eggs is exploitation and stealing them is unhealthy to the hens. If someone wants to ignore the truth, what can we do?

[Astrocat]

I totally agree with you guys !

Re:
So what about people using manure instead of fertilizers in their garden?

So what about it, yourself ?
;) answering a straight-forward question with another question is no kind of answer at all.

Ever heard of vegan organic gardening and agriculture ?

Even if commercial influence makes it impossible for many people to support this through their food purchasing choices, i gather that most vegans would prefer these techniques to be used rather than the usual "shitty" methods which are most commonly used.

Of course, if vegan people grow their own food it is quite possible to run their garden in a vegan/organic manner.

So, now... are you planning to answer the question which i asked properly, or are you just deflecting ?
I would be interested to know what your answer is...


Wow, notice how fast this thread has grown? And with out cow fertilizer even!"

:D hehe, that's vegans for you - they've all sold their souls to Seitan you know...

[Kelzie]

I agree, Gert. We have provided more than enough evidence that eating eggs is exploitation and stealing them is unhealthy to the hens. If someone wants to ignore the truth, what can we do?

If by evidence you are referring to simple statements that eating eggs is exploiting them, then you are right. There has been a lot of that. However, a statement is not evidence until it is backed up by fact. If you call ignoring the truth waiting for facts or a logical argument, then so be it. And I have also posted several FACTS that chickens do not naturally eat their eggs, so how is stealing it unhealthy for the chickens?

I'm sorry Astrocat, what question are you talking about? I forget which I've answered and which I haven't. ;)

[Astrocat]

I'm sorry Astrocat, what question are you talking about? I forget which I've answered and which I haven't.

No problem :)
I'd just asked whether you'd feel that it was wasteful for the chickens to just poo wherever they like without humans rushing in and scooping up the poo and eating it in order not to be wasteful.

ie - waste is waste.... it isn;t wasteful to treat it that way ;)

Have you never experienced for yourself the kind of people who justify eating flesh or bodily fluids by simply saying blankly "but it's FOOD ?"

[Kelzie]

Well if somebody wanted to eat chicken poo, I certainly could care less. I, actually haven't experienced anyone justifying eating animals/body fluid by saying "it's food" (guess I'm just lucky :))I'm not quite sure...I'd guess for me, I'd have to say that while it might contain nutritional value, and therefore have some defense for it being food, I prefer my food choices to have not come from the harm of another. Cause I mean, those people ARE right, it IS food. People can eat it, and not die, and lot's of animals eat it. But I feel there are other considerations to be considered before you eat something just because it is food. And that is what I'm doing here. I'm not eating eggs just cause they're food, I'm considering the pros and cons.

[Astrocat]

but people can eat all kinds of things and not die - including completely indigestible things... surely there are things which a person can consume which you feel are not really food ?

Pot Noodles, for example - now, surely nobody is goinf to try telling me those things are food !
;)



Well if somebody wanted to eat chicken poo, I certainly could care less.

Well yes, but if they didn;t then they wouldn;t really need to have a reason not to... right ?



I, actually haven't experienced anyone justifying eating animals/body fluid by saying "it's food" (guess I'm just lucky )

Seriously ?!? Holy crapolie, if i had a penny for every person like that i;ve encountered so far I could put the money in a bank and live off the interest !

Apart from anything else, i have encountered DROVES of christians who bastardise the bible for their own agendas and twist the teachings of their own religion to say that "God says that animals are food, so it's okay to eat them if you like"



I'm not quite sure...I'd guess for me, I'd have to say that while it might contain nutritional value, and therefore have some defense for it being food, I prefer my food choices to have not come from the harm of another.

:D aha, hey so now then, please tell me why you feel that it would harm a chicken (or other animal) for you to eat its' poo.

It wouldn;t , right ?
Or no more so than eating a hen's eggs would, surely.

[Kelzie]

but people can eat all kinds of things and not die - including completely indigestible things... surely there are things which a person can consume which you feel are not really food ?

Pot Noodles, for example - now, surely nobody is goinf to try telling me those things are food !

Sorry :D I didn't mean to make my definition of food so narrow. Food, by definition, also has to have some sort of nutritional value. Eggs do. Of course, it also has some negative effects on the human body, but almost everythig does if you eat too much of it. What are Pot Noodles, btw?


Well yes, but if they didn;t then they wouldn;t really need to have a reason not to... right ?

Because the reason they don't is kind of implied. Not speaking from experience here, but I'd assume that chicken poo tastes kinda gross. And it doesn't have any nutritional value, so it's not a food at all.


Seriously ?!? Holy crapolie, if i had a penny for every person like that i;ve encountered so far I could put the money in a bank and live off the interest !

Apart from anything else, i have encountered DROVES of christians who bastardise the bible for their own agendas and twist the teachings of their own religion to say that "God says that animals are food, so it's okay to eat them if you like"

I know, it's weird! Everybody I've told is actually really supportive. The worst I've ever gotten is "I could never do it"...but they wished they could. I actually kind of wish someone could say something stupid...I like arguing (if you couldn't tell already :D :D )



:D aha, hey so now then, please tell me why you feel that it would harm a chicken (or other animal) for you to eat its' poo.

It wouldn;t , right ?
Or no more so than eating a hen's eggs would, surely.

Wait...I'm confused...that's my point isn't it?

[Astrocat]

Sorry :D I didn't mean to make my definition of food so narrow.

Noooo problem



Food, by definition, also has to have some sort of nutritional value. Eggs do. Of course, it also has some negative effects on the human body, but almost everything does if you eat too much of it.

How about people ?
People-flesh contains a good nutritional profile compared to commercial animal-flesh, and quite possibly at least as much as an egg would have in it.

But.... would this in itself make people-flesh food, just because humans can obtain some form of nutrition if they eat it ?


What are Pot Noodles, btw?
:D scary !
Also, they are widely accepted among many Brit cultures as being not entirely technically food, despite being a food-product.
http://www.britishdelights.com/images/pn02.jpghttp://www.britishdelights.com/images/pn01.jpg



Because the reason they don't [eat poo] is kind of implied. Not speaking from experience here, but I'd assume that chicken poo tastes kinda gross. And it doesn't have any nutritional value, so it's not a food at all.

How can you say that ? For all you know it tastes like chocolate, right ?
;) there are plenty of foods which taste gross but that doesn;t make them not-food, tinned brussel-sprouts being a fine example. :D I'll bet chicken poo doesn;t taste worse than that stuff - or maybe the one tin of those i ever tried was just a nasty brand (i usually really like brussel sprouts, too)
And it does indeed have nutritional content, just like with all poo. Pooing is a very common way for animals to get rid of excess nutrition (ie vitamin B12) from their bodies.
So, i would disagree that the reason they don;t eat poo is implied in the way which you mentioned.


Everybody I've told is actually really supportive. The worst I've ever gotten is "I could never do it"...but they wished they could. I actually kind of wish someone could say something stupid...I like arguing (if you couldn't tell already :D :D

:D haha, always happy to oblige, Ms CrankyPants at yer service.

;) if you're looking for a fight, try asking some people why they feel that they could "never" give up fluids and/or flesh.

Re: "Wait...I'm confused...that's my point isn't it?"

No sir :), you said
"Well if somebody wanted to eat chicken poo, I certainly could care less. I, actually haven't experienced anyone justifying eating animals/body fluid by saying "it's food" (guess I'm just lucky )I'm not quite sure...I'd guess for me, I'd have to say that while it might contain nutritional value, and therefore have some defense for it being food, I prefer my food choices to have not come from the harm of another."

ie - although poo has nutrition i don;t want my food to come from the harm of another, so i wouldn;t want to eat it anyway.

ohhhhh..... waaaaaait..... I think you meant that was why you wouldn;t eat flesh or bodily fluids :D hahaha ;) never mind

Anyway, so yes - poo, it's nutritious so could be considered food by your definition - but why would you not want to eat it ? Do you even need a reason ?
:)

[Shisha Fiend]

Anyway, so yes - poo, it's nutritious so could be considered food by your definition - but why would you not want to eat it ? Do you even need a reason ?
:)

Eurgh. I've tasted chicken poo. It's not nice.

I think it's basically ammonia, it's very alkali anyway.

That's why I wouldn't want to eat it. It'd burn you all the way down, probably. If it did taste like chocolate, and didn't burn, I wouldn't have a problem with anyone eating it as long as the chickens weren't exploited for it.

(By the way I don't go around eating poo for fun, or not any more- I got a bit on my finger and chewed my feinger without realizing... :()

I think Feline01 asked how can I be against animal exploitation and yet for (or neutral about) eating eggs from rescue hens. Like I've explained about two or three times already, I really don't see it ever leading on to me eating meat. I really don't believe eating eggs that you would bin anyway, is exploitative.

Another thing: if people are saying it's unnatural for us to eat hens' periods, how natural is it really to expect them to eat their own boiled menses? To my mind that's even more unnatural. Plenty of animals eat others' eggs after all. But how many cook their own periods and eat them?

Plus, it's a sign of malnutrition for them to eat their own eggs. I don't know, I just get the impression people are ignoring this fact for the sake of convenience to their own arguments? Perhaps I'm misreading it though. Sorry.

As I see it, the real issue here for why vegans won't eat eggs is they feel uncomfortable with the idea of using any animal product as food, whether it's harming the animal or not. Why? I would assume because we can see the evidence every day, of where that can lead. Dead animals on supermarket shelves. Animals specifically bred to provide the best bodies for whatever humans consider their purpose should be- even if that means chickens so fat their legs can't support them. Animals being pumped full of drugs. Whole industries dedicated to killing. It's not pleasant, we all feel that.

Thing is I don't think these rescue hens eggs are ever going to lead back there. The point is your looking after them until they die. You're not breeding more to get more eggs, or anything.

I suppose people just feel uncomfortable with the idea, in case it lead to the objectification of the chicken. But I think we need to be able to explain exactly how that could come about, in this situation. Cos while I understand that feeling, I don't think it stands up under practical scrutiny, really.

Just for the record, I don't eat eggs. I wouldn't be opposed to eating eggs from rescue hens, but I don't know any rescue hens. Therefore I don't eat eggs.

Gert, I agree that the argument should continue until 'the light goes on' and we reach a conclusion we can all agree to. Though that could take some time. It's great to be able to have this debate with vegans though. :)

My personal view of the situation at the moment, is some vegans will, some won't. Eg the 'vegan eggs' appearing in shops. Some vegans feel it is unethical, perhaps they feel that in their own minds eating eggs would lead to the objectification of the hens. However if you can say that you would efinitely not succumb to that mindset by eating eggs, I don't see how those specific ones are unvegan. What I'm saying is it can be vegan to be against eating eggs from rescue hens. It can be vegan to be neutral.

People are saying veganism is about 'more than ethics'- I disagree. I agree that veganism is about not expoiting animals at all, not objectifying them, respecting them, and not seeing them as there to serve humans in dietary ro whatever other ways. However I would not say that this is not ethics. As far as I'm concerned all those things are ethical viewpoints and ethical reasons for the vegan lifestyle. And I don't see how rescue hen eggs will always go against these principles. I do see that for some people it could lead to that- but not for everyone. It's about knowing your own weaknesses, and I think following the vegan lifestyle makes you an expert in that. :)

As for health, I been looking into it, found several conflicting studies, all of them biased- eg egg companies claiming eggs don't hurt you, or in some cases that they protect against heart disease and cancer- whatever!- also vegetarian/vegan websites claiming that they'll kill you soon as look at you. You know. But on balance, I'd have to conclude that once a year really wouldn't hurt. All in moderation is a good rule, applies to most things.

Basically I don't have much more to say yet, as Kelzie has again said everything I've been thinking. :)

xxx

[Shisha Fiend]

Sniv- thanks for your earlier post, I found it really engaging and I've just got round to scrolling back and finding it in order to write a reply. :)


Something is bothering me here. Earlier someone mentioned about the trait of brooding being bred out. It seems this can only mean when birds would occasionally brood even when their nests aren't full, and they don't do this anymore. But birds did brood always when they had a full nest. Is this also bred out of them, because the eggs of the chickens they use are always taken. Do they brood or not when allowed a full nest? Does anyone know this, because how can they be sure they don't brood if they always take the eggs away. If this is so, that means the egg industry couldn't breed new layers, unless they use incubaters. Do they use incubaters?

I'm pretty sure they use incubators yeah. :( I remember when I was little, I used to go round to one of the local farms, you know the kind. The 'let's make sure inner-city kids know what a cow looks like' kind. Basically it was free, so we went a lot, and it was set up like a museum, it was a working farm, but all pretty nice and glossed over, and they did projects with the local schools. Anyway they used to have this barn with all displays and explanations about farm animals, plus occasionally an incubator full of eggs, then little yellow baby chicks. Of course I just thought this was sweet, now I wonder if maybe the chicks in the incubator were all female (more than likely) and if so just what had happened to the male chicks... But anyway. Yeah they incubate. 'Never leave anything to nature' seems to be the motto of modern farming. :(


This would mean these birds could never reproduce naturally, because the eggs would not survive.

Doesn't all this mean that we would be taking advantage of the aspects man has ruined for the hens. I could not feel right doing that. Now I don't even care if the chicken gives a damn, it just doesn't seem right to be gaining from these poor creatures. I don't care if they realize they are being exlpoited. Heck, they probably don't know they're being exploited in factory farms, just that they are being hurt. You can't have a symbiotic relationship unless both parties consciously agree to it, not in my mind. Also, that would mean your benefitting from the egg industry, making these hens the way they are.

Mmm, to me it's not so much an issue of benefitting, just- the eggs are there, they would be chucked, why not eat them? I'm thinking in terms of practicality, even in morality. I suppose that's probably a mistake.


I don't understand how someone sees a difference if someone who owns hens to eat their eggs, but treats them nice, and someone who keeps hens to take care of them, treating them equally nice, but eats their eggs. The same thing happens, but one is exploitation and one is not? Does it just depend on what the person thinks about it? Shouldn't it depend on what is done? This is like debating whether or not taking a pen from someone is okay, based on how important it is to them or if they use it. That might matter to how much they value it, but not to the moral equation of taking it. It is not yours.

Um, two different issues here. One, what's more important, intention or consequence? According to your previous comment, it would seem you feel intention is more important as far as the ethics for the human eating the eggs goes, but consequence as far as the hens are concerned. I'm inclined to agree, I think in this case what determines whether it's exploitation is your intention. If it is exploitation, because that is your intetion, then it is fair to say it could lead onto the slippery slope, at which point it becomes suffering as a consequence for the chicken.

Second issue, absolutes. For you it's an absolute that eggs are just wrong, under any circumstance? For me it's relative. I think it would be very hard to prove either opinion right or wrong, I think what matters here is how it affects the chickens, in practical terms, and what your intention is, in terms of keeping a 'vegan frame of mind'.

Do you get me? It's hard to be clear when we get into this kind of philsophical area, especially at quarter to two in the morning! :)

xxx

[Kelzie]

Yay, you're back Shisha! I was feeling very alone...


Basically I don't have much more to say yet, as Kelzie has again said everything I've been thinking.
But you seem to say it so much better...

[Shisha Fiend]

But you seem to say it so much better...

:o Thanks, I think you're doing okay as you are!

Basically the whole thing seems to still be going round in circles at the moment though, we could all just copy and paste all our old posts and stick them back up! :D

xxx

[Kelzie]

Noooo problem




[QUOTE=Astrocat]How about people ?
People-flesh contains a good nutritional profile compared to commercial animal-flesh, and quite possibly at least as much as an egg would have in it. But.... would this in itself make people-flesh food, just because humans can obtain some form of nutrition if they eat it ?
Well, yes, technically people are food. Sharks like us just fine


How can you say that ? For all you know it tastes like chocolate, right ?
;) there are plenty of foods which taste gross but that doesn;t make them not-food, tinned brussel-sprouts being a fine example. :D I'll bet chicken poo doesn;t taste worse than that stuff - or maybe the one tin of those i ever tried was just a nasty brand (i usually really like brussel sprouts, too)
And it does indeed have nutritional content, just like with all poo. Pooing is a very common way for animals to get rid of excess nutrition (ie vitamin B12) from their bodies.
So, i would disagree that the reason they don;t eat poo is implied in the way which you mentioned.

Blech. Not me. I hate all kinds of brussel sprouts. And poo is also a way to get rid of a lot of excess toxins...doesn't make for good food.


;) if you're looking for a fight, try asking some people why they feel that they could "never" give up fluids and/or flesh.
Okay I had to include this so I could brag. My uncle just called and said I've converted him to veganism too!!! :D :D He's eaten a vegan diet for three days and he loves it. I knew he was my favorite uncle for some reason.

[Kelzie]

Yeah, I don't quite get how it happened either. He was a very easy sell. I have a hunch he might have been considering it before I brought it up. My mom (hehe, I wish I was from London...mum is so much cooler) thankfully hasn't allowed milk in her house since she read a Discover article on how bad it is for you. She's my next project. And from there, my little brother and sister have no choice but to go vegan.

And then?

The world!!

[Peas'nHominy]

Apart from anything else, i have encountered DROVES of christians who bastardise the bible for their own agendas and twist the teachings of their own religion to say that "God says that animals are food, so it's okay to eat them if you like"
Perhaps we all have; it's a real shame. :( I have a good many friends who are of various denominations of Christian, Catholic, Mormon, Islamic and Jewish - I find (so far anyway) that within different religions some of this "bastardising" exists. It's a real shame to that faith to come to know someone like that - I reckon that's one reason why it annoys me for a person who eats fish to say he's vegetarian or a person who eats eggs to say he's vegan - it can cause...disappreciation and misunderstanding. (IMO) I don't intend to be mean to these people and I don't get upset if someone "messes up," yet I think both words and actions are important. :)



Wow PeasnHominy, that's a very unique view point that you have. Do you follow a specific religion, or is it more of a personal belief? Must be hard for you either way...I admire you for it. :)
:D You are so sweet and nice!! Thank you for your kind words!! :D I have searched into different spiritual teachings, and find that I truely believe in the teachings of Jesus. So although I call myself a "Christian," veganism is part of that for me. To answer your question, I suppose the answer is...both(?). I refuse to just believe something because a preacher-man says it; I have to pray about it, research it, and consider it for myself. ;) (Yes, it is hard for me out here in beef country, but I'm so happy now to find y'all :) I don't feel as alone anymore, as a vegan that is. :D I think y'all rock! )


Okay I had to include this so I could brag. My uncle just called and said I've converted him to veganism too!!! He's eaten a vegan diet for three days and he loves it. I knew he was my favorite uncle for some reason.
Wow! That's great! I'm excited right now, too, because I'm making progess with my hubby. Actually, I think I have y'all on this forum to thank - I'm getting better at speaking to people about this stuff. :D

[Kelzie]

I hear ya on the beef country. My dad lives in Houston too. Good luck on your hubby. I think that was my biggest problem too: learning how to explain veganism. I always just ended pissing people off ;). My mom's working her way to suedo-vegansim. She doesn't eat beef, fish, or poultry, and is trying to cut out fish. However, she wants to get some hens for eggs, hence my interest in the thread (not that I'd eat them, but...)

[snivelingchild]

Shisha fiend, you mentioned that if the eggs were not eaten, they would be wasted, but that's assuming someone won't feed them to the hens or let them nurish the Earth. And yes, I do think in absolutes about eggs, because no matter how you put it they are not yours. I don't really care if it doesn't hurt the hens. If we all went around trying to live a life where our highest goal was not doing harm, not much good would come. I want to do good, and to me the best choice in such a situation would be to feed the eggs back to the hens (unless they brood, in which case it is a health benefit to keep the eggs there permanantly or take them to feed back when she gives up trying to hatch them, since this slows down her laying which leds to a longer healthier life). If you take them for your own means, it is stealing. So far I haven't heard anyone argue against this. I try to give non-human animals the same consideration I give any human. It is stealing. Even if you ignore that fact, if you are taking care of hens, you want to provide them with the healthiest happiest life possible. I'd say the eggs are much better for them than you, and they would be healthier as a result of eating their own eggs. It's like a multi-vitamin for them. Why not let them have it.

(sorry I didn't break that up enough)

If waste is not a factor (and it shouldn't be) the eggs will go to either them or you (or at least the earth for composting). If you feed them to yourself instead of them, you are putting yourself first. That's not how I would treat a friend, especially one who has been through so much. Besides which, they are healthier for them than humans, they deserve it more.

I'd really like to see this discussion turn away from harm, because sometimes you have to make decisions based on what would to the most good, not the least harm. :)

[kokopelli]

So what about people using manure instead of fertilizers in their garden? Surely that is using an animal for your own ends as much as taking an egg. But the animal has as much use for its manure as a chicken seems to for its unfertilized eggs.

Yes, using manure isn't vegan, either.
Our farm is fertilised entirely with composted plant material and green manuring.
Using manure is depending on animal farming. Also manure is full of pathogenic bacteria, and it's much nicer to deal with compost than manure. The plants it produces are also healthier, in my opinion.

[kokopelli]

(and I'm not too sure that we should be taking the eggs at all anyway, even to just throw 'em away...I'm still thinking about it...is there some environmental or health benefit for the hen if we bury the rotting eggs?)


It was just a way of dealing with them...I could have composted them, I suppose, but rotten eggs are very smelly!

I was just trying to point out that hens behave in very unnatural ways, because they've been bred as egg producers. Wild birds don't generally lay enormous piles of eggs and just leave them. They don't normally all gang up on the weakest individual and peck their feathers out, either.

Anyway I was very glad to have had the chance to look after my friend's chickens, because it made me realise how much happier I was without them around. That was before I became vegan, and it was the last time I ate eggs. It feels SO MUCH BETTER not to have to depend on animals at all. :)

[kokopelli]

Rabbits eat their own young, but it is actually bad for them, since they are natural herbivores. But if the mother is malnutritioned, it seems as if she somehow understands that her environment can barely support her, let alone her offspring.

Actually, I thought rabbit foetuses could be reabsorbed by the mother before they were born, if the environmental conditions weren't OK for raising babies. I didn't think they actually ate their own babies?!?

Where did you read that?

[kokopelli]

Eg the 'vegan eggs' appearing in shops.

I don't understand how an egg could ever be vegan.

If you're saying it's vegan because it comes from a 'rescue' hen, then any knackered old hen whose laying has slowed down to the point where it becomes unprofitable for an 'exploitative' chicken farmer to keep her anymore, could be passed on to some caring 'rescue' place to spend the rest of her days in a relatively pleasant environment, providing a little income from the eggs she still occasionally produced.

To my mind, that's bolstering the chicken industry.
It's making it seem like everything's OK because at least the hen's treated 'right' at last.

I believe the only way to stop the exploitation of animals, is to stop exploiting them altogether.

Sorry about the multiple posting, BTW.