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Pascale
Feb 8th, 2007, 01:25 AM
I know some people don't think that soy protein isolate is healthy, but I can't figure out why? What's wrong with soy protein isolate?

whalespace
Feb 8th, 2007, 11:54 AM
No fat, no fibre, but best of all no need to cook it... I use soy protein isolate every day. I can shake it with any cold liquid, in a screw top cup, on the train or on the stairs.
vegandrummersam told me it can cause acidic conditions in the body, so I try to eat heaps of salad as well... which I find less hard than finding vegan protein when I am out of the house or in a hurry. I reckon this protein is the same protein that I would be getting from tofu or some other soy product so I am willing to mix it and see. I don't drink, don't smoke, get daily exercise, avoid concentrated poisons... here's hoping my body can tolerate a few spoon fulls of protein.

veganlinda
Feb 12th, 2007, 05:00 PM
I used it for a couple of months in smoothies and didn't have any problems ... have only stopped as I got out of the habit of having smoothies for breakfast.

Fifty9
Feb 12th, 2007, 08:56 PM
I know some people don't think that soy protein isolate is healthy, but I can't figure out why? What's wrong with soy protein isolate?

Watch this, and maybe you will understand.

http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/mcdougall_igf1.htm

veganlinda
Feb 12th, 2007, 10:00 PM
Wow! Interesting stuff. That's me not taking it again.

whalespace
Feb 13th, 2007, 09:08 AM
Rats.

aubergine
Feb 13th, 2007, 12:45 PM
Some further reading.

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2005nl/april/050400pusoy.htm

whalespace
Feb 13th, 2007, 02:09 PM
So Insulin Like Growth Factor seems to stimulate cell proliferation and inhibit cell death.....seems a generally good thing unless one has cancer.

Also consider the hypothesis that bodies produce IGF in response to cancers... in which case individuals with cancer would appear to have more IGF.

As usual one needs to see the source code to make head from tail.

I will get some more chickpeas and lentils sprouting... until some company becomes sufficiently involved in those to fund lab work.
I can imagine some gleeful med student slicing up my godiva now.
Vive la difference.
:rolleyes:

aubergine
Feb 13th, 2007, 02:13 PM
Pea and Hemp proteins are still readily available, and I hear are good in shakes.

sophia
Feb 13th, 2007, 02:55 PM
I think sometimes we all look into things too much. Everything in moderation. Being a scientist, I see cancer every day and I can just tell you that merely being alive and breathing can give you cancer! I'm recovering from an eating disorder and I really don't want to start analysing everything I eat even more. I think if you wanna have soy protein isolate, go for it. But don't overdo it.

aubergine
Feb 13th, 2007, 03:08 PM
Avoiding Soy Isolate isn't hard though. If you stick to a mainly whole foods low fat diet you can eat practically as much as you want. The amount of Fibre will make sure you're feeling full and don't overeat.

Fifty9
Feb 13th, 2007, 09:58 PM
I think sometimes we all look into things too much. Everything in moderation. Being a scientist, I see cancer every day and I can just tell you that merely being alive and breathing can give you cancer!

The studies are not really about soy protein isolates causing cancer, but rather they create an environment ideal for cancer to grow and spread. If simply being alive and breathing exposes one to carcinogens, then all the more reason to avoid things that encourage growth.

With that being said, I just think we need to be aware of what we put in our bodies. Eating doesn't need to be complicated, but we should know that not everything that says SOY on the front is a health food.

My biggest gripe is really that people are under the impression that they need all of this protein. There is already plenty of protein in starches, vegetables and fruits to supply more than you can use anyway. There's no benefit to supplementing protein, it only causes more problems.

whalespace
Feb 14th, 2007, 12:09 AM
The studies are not really about soy protein isolates causing cancer, but rather they create an environment ideal for cancer to grow and spread. If simply being alive and breathing exposes one to carcinogens, then all the more reason to avoid things that encourage growth.....

My biggest gripe is really that people are under the impression that they need all of this protein. There is already plenty of protein in starches, vegetables and fruits to supply more than you can use anyway. There's no benefit to supplementing protein, it only causes more problems.


Conditions good for cells should be good conditions for growth and repair aswell then?
I'm no expert on the wide range of cancers which can develop as a result of interference with DNA transcription.
I learned that starch was a polysacharide... many sugars joined without a whiff of nitrogen [no protein].
Vegetables and fruit are certainly high on my list of things to eat but the World Health Organisation recomends 60 grammes of protein per day, for a sedentary [not moving around] adult refugee. I know numbers vary, as do sizes, but unless one is capable of browsing 5 or 6 kilos of fruit and veg each day [let alone obtaining it], then 'supplementation' [also known as 'eating something' to many people] can prevent problems too.

Roxy
Feb 14th, 2007, 02:16 AM
Watch this, and maybe you will understand.

http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/mcdougall_igf1.htm

I remember you explaining to me about soy protein isolate in another thread, but I wanted to thank you very much for posting this link. I watched the video and wow!! :eek: It really hit home.

aubergine
Feb 14th, 2007, 01:45 PM
Conditions good for cells should be good conditions for growth and repair aswell then?

...

the World Health Organisation recomends 60 grammes of protein per day, for a sedentary [not moving around] adult refugee. I know numbers vary, as do sizes, but unless one is capable of browsing 5 or 6 kilos of fruit and veg each day [let alone obtaining it], then 'supplementation' [also known as 'eating something' to many people] can prevent problems too.

Growth in this context isn't something that is desirable for adults though. The IGF-1 causes processes that are desirable (to a point) in juveniles.

Protein recommendations are much higher than they could be. The China Study puts forward a very good case for the healthiest cultures being the lowest consumers of protein. They seem to get enough.

The exception to this scenario is 'bulking' which can be achieved with other plant proteins such as pea, hemp or beans other than soy. Those other sources don't have the same affect on the production of IGF-1 which means you can bulk up without promoting cancer growth.

sophia
Feb 14th, 2007, 04:43 PM
Like I say again. Everything in moderation. This is starting to annoy me. All these studies and stuff. Blah blah blah :mad:

whalespace
Feb 14th, 2007, 10:14 PM
Like I say again. Everything in moderation. This is starting to annoy me. All these studies and stuff. Blah blah blah :mad:

Moderation... suits me.


Growth in this context isn't something that is desirable for adults though. The IGF-1 causes processes that are desirable (to a point) in juveniles.



Agreed, that in the context of diagnosed cancer, I would want to do all I could to nail the abberant dividers.
Just now [and see my ignorance of the specific metabolic pathways involved] I am happy for my hair, nails, and skin to keep growing, and for my body to produce copious amounts of healthy red blood, mucous, enzymes, hormones, leucocytes and other immunity boosting cells and products....thick, fast and healthy enough.

More specifically regarding soy protein isolate, surely if it was PURELY protein then there would be no problems, so maybe we can look forward to the problematic substances being removed by FURTHER PROCESSING . "Natural" is not [I]always best.

Fifty9
Feb 14th, 2007, 11:14 PM
Vegetables and fruit are certainly high on my list of things to eat but the World Health Organisation recomends 60 grammes of protein per day, for a sedentary [not moving around] adult refugee. I know numbers vary, as do sizes, but unless one is capable of browsing 5 or 6 kilos of fruit and veg each day [let alone obtaining it], then 'supplementation' [also known as 'eating something' to many people] can prevent problems too.

It seems you are not aware of the amount of protein that plant foods contain. As vegans, we should all know this if for nothing else but to explain it to curious omni's.

Potatoes are 10-11% protein; pasta is 14%, corn is 12%, broccoli is 45%, oatmeal is 15%, beans are 26%, oranges are 6%, etc.

The WHO has recommended (since 1974) that 5% of calories come from protein. This figure is actually double the minimum requirement of 2.5% for a healthy diet. If you ate all of your calories from plant foods, (such as the ones I mentioned above), you would consume protein in excess of the recommended amount.

Like I said, there is plenty of protein in plants. It is impossible to design a protein deficient diet based on plants, regardless of what the rocket scientists in the gyms keep telling you. Elephants don't seem to have a problem getting enough protein. Does nobody else find it odd that our food would be deficient in the nutrients necessary to sustain life? If it were, how did we make it this far? Think about it.

Fifty9
Feb 14th, 2007, 11:23 PM
Moderation... suits me.



Agreed, that in the context of diagnosed cancer, I would want to do all I could to nail the abberant dividers.
Just now [and see my ignorance of the specific metabolic pathways involved] I am happy for my hair, nails, and skin to keep growing, and for my body to produce copious amounts of healthy red blood, mucous, enzymes, hormones, leucocytes and other immunity boosting cells and products....thick, fast and healthy enough.

More specifically regarding soy protein isolate, surely if it was PURELY protein then there would be no problems, so maybe we can look forward to the problematic substances being removed by FURTHER PROCESSING . "Natural" is not [I]always best.

You do realize that many of the diseases we see and suffer from today, are a result of excess, not deficiency. Too much protein has its own problems, especially when taken out of its natural form with no fiber to slow absorption.

eve
Feb 15th, 2007, 12:13 AM
Like I say again. Everything in moderation. This is starting to annoy me. All these studies and stuff. Blah blah blah :mad:
"Everything in moderation" is what my neighbours say as an excuse for eating some meat, fish or dairy. I usually ask them if they would want to eat in moderation food that contains arsenic, or drink in moderation food that is complete crap. That phrase is so stupid.

Fifty9
Feb 15th, 2007, 02:06 AM
How do people define moderation? A little bit with every meal? A little bit once a year? What do you define "a little bit"? A spoonful, 1/4 of the plate, etc.

For some people, moderation could work as long as they understand how rarely they should consume such foods, and if they are able to go back to a healthy diet until that special day comes around again.

The problem with moderation as I see it is that I don't think most people have these moderate personalities. Further, it's been shown lots of times that people's taste preferences change according to what they eat. If you eat lots of salty foods, you will prefer and choose salty foods for yourself. Were you to change to foods that are naturally lower in sodium, those salty foods you use to eat will suddenly become unpalatable. The same goes for fatty foods and such. Making exceptions for bad foods may never allow you to fully adapt the taste preferences for healthy foods.

Also, for people with low will power it may be better to have a set of guidelines to follow. Allowing yourself a little bit of fish can suddenly become daily tuna for lunch and nightly fish filet for dinner. Then who's to say that you can't have some chicken the next time you're out? After all you are already eating fish every day, and they are both white meats. Next thing you know, moderate suddenly becomes your weekly cheese-steak sandwich or Fast-food binge. If you think this is unlikely, consider how many diets people fail at every year.

Perhaps some people can handle a little moderation, but I just think that most cannot.

absentmindedfan
Feb 15th, 2007, 11:02 AM
I totally agree. Have you read Neal Barnard's 'Breaking the Food Seduction'? He talks about alot of what you've mentioned.

aubergine
Feb 15th, 2007, 12:40 PM
What about getting Cancer in moderation? No thanks.

Cancer takes many years to grow. Increasingly the earliest stages start in childhood. The tumours are usually the last stage once the cancer has taken over a part of the body, and that's the point at which it shows up.

We know more about cancer than doctors will normally admit to. It's machanisms are no mystery and haven't been for decades.

whalespace
Feb 15th, 2007, 10:30 PM
It seems you are not aware of the amount of protein that plant foods contain. As vegans, we should all know this if for nothing else but to explain it to curious omni's.

Potatoes are 10-11% protein; pasta is 14%, corn is 12%, broccoli is 45%, oatmeal is 15%, beans are 26%, oranges are 6%, etc.


It might seem that way until you consider that I might be basing my percentages on mass [weight] and not on calories.


Like I said, there is plenty of protein in plants. It is impossible to design a protein deficient diet based on plants, regardless of what the rocket scientists in the gyms keep telling you. Elephants don't seem to have a problem getting enough protein. Does nobody else find it odd that our food would be deficient in the nutrients necessary to sustain life? If it were, how did we make it this far? Think about it.

I reckon a lot of elephants have a devil of a hard time getting enough protein, and spend most of their waking lives grinding cellulose into something that their gut microbes can work on.... but I know what you are getting at.
Some days I wonder how we have made it this far , but most days now I wonder how we are going to get out of this mess. I promise I will think about it.


You do realize that many of the diseases we see and suffer from today, are a result of excess, not deficiency. Too much protein has its own problems, especially when taken out of its natural form with no fiber to slow absorption.

Sorry Bud, I have had refugees on the brain for a few years now, along with people who lack what they need to help each other get along with the others. I know that people who have unbalanced diets and have access to better nutrition will benefit from assistance too, but essential service provision is not necessarily improved by pampering demons.



Like I say again. Everything in moderation. This is starting to annoy me. All these studies and stuff. Blah blah blah :mad:

Some people can choose, some people must mix and match the trash just to stay out of the fight. Freedom in an imperfect but honest world might rinse the pants of slaves to selective views. I do not ignore well reasoned research.... but I often read the yard before I read the menu.

treehugga
Feb 16th, 2007, 08:28 AM
I think it's often the refining process using all sorts of nasties that causes problems. What was once a healthy food can become contaminated rot.

I do lots of weights and gym work and find I feel weak if I don't consume enough protein type foods and get shakey.

I eat nuts and seeds every day and grind them and add them to smoothies. A healthy way to get my protein without stressing over whether or not it may give me cancer.