"Pets" - Which of these statements do you agree with?

[Manzana]

Seems everything I say on this thread is totally misunderstood.

Breeders shouldn't make a profit, but the reality is that they do. I can't imagine that changing without something drastic. If they aren't allowed to charge a penny, rescue centres etc couldn't either.

Of course they could, rescue centers are non profit organisations (which means they do not make a profit out of taking people's money for the animals. THey are normally charities and people that take animals from rescue centers know that their money is not really to "buy" the animal they are taking but to subsidise the food and care of the other animals that remain there...



I don't see anything wrong with expecting people to pay for taking on an animal - at least there is a tiny assurance that the people REALLY want the animal if they are prepared to pay for it, rather than just turn up, get a freebie, no financial commitment to the life taken on, nothing lost if they pass it on again.

Would you then expect adoptive parents to pay for the children they take??

Paying gives absolutely no proof on wanting to look after the animal/child... other measures need to be put in place for these reasons. Here in the UK you cannot take an animal from a rescue centre until you have filled in a questionaire (with questions such as "what will you do with the animal when you go on holiday?" "Do you realise vet bills and food will cost you an average of x per month?" "Are you planning on moving house soon?" etc) As well as this, someone comes to visit your house to check that it is an adequate place for the animal to live (I.e. you cannot "own" a dog without a garden or if the house is empty for more than 4 or 5 hours a day and noone can look after the dog) Some places do other checks, such as ask you if you have owned any pets, then ask you for the previous vet details and then check with the vet if the pet was well looked after, vaccinated...


Expecting the human population to all stop wanting any animals around is a fairly tall order, not gonna happen any time soon is it.


on that basis, just keep eating flesh because people are not going to change just because it is wrong...

I do not expect human population to stop wanting meat (or animals) but I can point out that it is morally wrong to eat meat. It is equally morally wrong to sell a being and even more morally wrong to make profit from it... In the same argument if you buy a being you support this trade and I think this is also morally wrong.

[Zan]

Very well put Manzana

[Blue moon]

Sigh.

I think you're unfairly stretching what I've said.

I think it should be obvious what I was actually meaning, but really I don't have the energy to try and express it in terms that can't be misconstrued as me wanting the worst for animals.

Bye

[RubyDuby]

Closest contact was being bitten on the face by an Alsatian when I was 15
that's terrible!!! no wonder ur not a dog person!

[hazelbunny]

I don't know one vegan who deosn't have animals around them,dogs,cats,hamsters,rats,whatever and find the whole debate kinda odd,equating a loved pet to a circus animal?wtf?:confused:
There's some extremeism at it's most extreme here!http://www.celticminded.com/images/smilies/animlol.gif


Agreed Gogs! Frankly it has upset me that there are vegans who would actively try to make domestic dogs extinct, a worse crime in my opinion than meat-eating!

[RubyDuby]

I get it. I mean, domesticated dogs are not a naturally occuring phenomenon. and we've exploited them to over-population and tortured lives/deaths out of greed.

I don't see how killing them off would right the problem though.

[Roxy]

Agreed. Be kinda like rounding up all the kids in orphanages and giving them leathal injections as well. I mean, afterall, they don't have homes to go to and the earth really is overpopulated isn't it.

[Marrers]

. . . there are vegans who would actively try to make domestic dogs extinct . . .

Actively try? Did I miss something? I don't recall reading that (unless it is buried pages back).

Suggesting that domestic animals are no longer bred and are allowed to die out naturally over time is not actively trying to make them extinct or killing them off.

[EcoTribalVegan]

I don't see how killing them off would right the problem though.

I don't think anyone is advocating KILLING them. Maybe spaying and neutering them so they don't repopulate (and in a sense I suppose "killing them off"). But you can't kill something before it exists so it's not killing at all.

[RubyDuby]

ummm... actually some people are advocating killing them. Shelters kill animals all the time because there is no space/money/time for all of them.

A couple people from peta were arrested for killing shelter animals awhile back.

and this quote:
If I saw a dog dying on the street I would have it be put to sleep. The problem (the pet owner) has already been done. The dog's presumably terrible life can't be undone. But we can change the future. Actually, just by owning pets you promote pet owning to non-pet owners. Getting fewer people to own pets in the first place is the right way to tackle the situation.
from: http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16798
shows evidence of that as well.

Of course we need to spay and neuter. Unfortunately there arent laws for this or to regulate breeding.

[emzy1985]

I think I may have already stated that I don't support breeders etc. My four cats are rescued because I feel I can give them a better home. All are spayed and I wouldn't have it any other way as all four were originally unwanted kittens. I throughly support neutering "companion" animals as a way to reduce a population of animals without a good home. I'm not sure that if the only way to have a "pet" in your life would be to buy it that I would ever have a "pet" as I'm not really sure I believe in keeping them in the first place if the need isn't there. However it is not mine nor the animals faults that they have been over bred for years so until a time when there are not needy cats/dogs/rats etc etc then I will continue to look after them instead of letting them go on the streets, be abused or put down by a shelter.

Did that make sense?

[Manzana]

ummm... actually some people are advocating killing them. Shelters kill animals all the time because there is no space/money/time for all of them.

A couple people from peta were arrested for killing shelter animals awhile back.

and this quote:
If I saw a dog dying on the street I would have it be put to sleep. The problem (the pet owner) has already been done. The dog's presumably terrible life can't be undone. But we can change the future. Actually, just by owning pets you promote pet owning to non-pet owners. Getting fewer people to own pets in the first place is the right way to tackle the situation.
from: http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16798
shows evidence of that as well.



Where is that quote from???
I don't think anyone in this forum has advocated killing animals. Not being in favour of keeping pets means by no means killing them...

I am with Marrers, did I miss any hidden pages on the forum???

[Marrers]

ummm... actually some people are advocating killing them. Shelters kill animals all the time because there is no space/money/time for all of them.

A couple people from peta were arrested for killing shelter animals awhile back.
I thought we were talking about the opinions expressed by VF forum users.
But the things you mention are killing of some animals - not actively making animals extinct or trying to totally 'kill them off' (which I understand to mean kill them all).



and this quote:
If I saw a dog dying on the street I would have it be put to sleep. . . .
from: http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16798 shows evidence of that as well.
I don't think this post shows evidence of wanting to kill any, let alone all animals. This person was talking about finding a dog on the street which is already dying. I realise many of us would make efforts to save the dog if it were possible but it doesn't mean the poster (who lives in Sweden) doesn't care - clearly from other posts they do.

[RubyDuby]

Where is that quote from???
I don't think anyone in this forum has advocated killing animals. Not being in favour of keeping pets means by no means killing them...

I am with Marrers, did I miss any hidden pages on the forum???

the quote is from the link underneath the quote.

[RubyDuby]

But the things you mention are killing of some animals - not actively making animals extinct or trying to totally 'kill them off' (which I understand to mean kill them all).

just so we're on the same page. The animals I'm referring to are 'pets'. We're in the "What is your opinion about keeping pets?" thread.


I thought we were talking about the opinions expressed by VF forum users.

But you mention are killing of some animals - not actively making animals extinct or trying to totally 'kill them off' (which I understand to mean means kill them all).

I don't think this post shows evidence of wanting to kill any, let alone all animals. This person was talking about finding a dog on the street which is already dying. I realise many of us would make efforts to save the dog if it were possible but it doesn't mean the poster (who lives in Sweden) doesn't care - clearly from other posts they do.

I was under the impression that an extreme (often vegan) view was that domestic animals were put here by humans and tortured by humans, therefore the humane thing to do would be to put to sleep the homeless and not own pets, bc that is advocating owning a species that should have never existed. To me, that clearly shows feeling as though the species should no longer exist. (ie killed off... in essence)

In thread where I got that quote, three ideas came from that 1 person.
#1 owning domestic animals shows a need to dominate another species.
#2 owning pets in itself encourages others to own pets, which is bad.
#3 an acceptable way to deal with pets without owners is to put them to sleep.

I'm going to send him a PM to see if he'll stop by here and set the record straight.

[EcoTribalVegan]

ummm... actually some people are advocating killing them. Shelters kill animals all the time because there is no space/money/time for all of them.

A couple people from peta were arrested for killing shelter animals awhile back.

I apologize. I thought you were speaking about people on this forum not welfarist organisations. My bad.

From the looks of it though, the last few posters made this mistake as well.

[EcoTribalVegan]

#1 owning domestic animals shows a need to dominate another species.

And this is why from now on I will never buy an animal like a commodity. I don't think I dominate my animals. In fact they let me know when they want to be fed. I sometimes feel more like their slave lol.


#2 owning pets in itself encourages others to own pets, which is bad.

I may agree with this one, but if it's explained to them you aren't contributing to INCREASING the pet population and just ensuring that animals aren't dying in shelters, then I think they can understand the difference.


#3 an acceptable way to deal with pets without owners is to put them to sleep.

Once again I don't recall anyone from this forum saying this.

And I would really like to know the individual you think did say this because I would like to have a word with them as well.

But all of these assumptions you've made are superceded by an animals desire to live. By claiming these are the guidelines of vegans who don't promote pets but have them you have ignored that animals are capable of the DESIRE to maintain their own life. Even if it's deplorable (but then they shouldn't be in that situation and these are the animals I would be taking in).

[Mahk]

I think a lot of people (and I know I was one of them) have a near-sighted and idyllic/fairy tale view of what goes on in the background in order to feed the world's pet demand. Obviously there are many "good" breeders out there, but as long as dogs and cats are bought and sold as commodities, there will always be some people out there who will treat animals as shown in this video (http://www.animaladvocates.com/videos/backyard-breeding/?showvideo=true&video=1&format=windowsmedia). ( It's not gory, don't be afraid, but it will make you think. Also, the sound level is low, so turn up your volume.)

I'm not making any judgments here, just passing along some info.

[ivandurago]

I imagine when I am done with college and have a home/land with enough room I will adopt dogs from local shelters, and obviously feed them vegan.

I absolutely love cats, however I have heard that they cannot live on a vegan diet alone, and you would either have to purchase some form of animal products in order to fulfill their diet or allow them to hunt at night (which wouldn't bother me, but attempting to bring up a cat vegan, then hope it keeps the instincts to kill... confusing/difficult)

[boatsteem1]

I get it. I mean, domesticated dogs are not a naturally occuring phenomenon. and we've exploited them to over-population and tortured lives/deaths out of greed.

I don't see how killing them off would right the problem though.


Agreed. Be kinda like rounding up all the kids in orphanages and giving them leathal injections as well. I mean, afterall, they don't have homes to go to and the earth really is overpopulated isn't it.

Humans are a naturally occuring species. We may be killing tens of millions of animals each day, destroying the climate, killing each other, and whatnot, but we are naturally occuring. By that I mean that we were created by evolution.

Pets were made by humans. In fact, they are still being made. Every day, dog, cat, horse, rabbit, chinchilla breeders selectively breed their animals to be better suitable to what ever makes humans happy. We have even started experimenting with genetic breeding.

In my view, this is like rape on mother nature. A nasty - global - rape.

Domestic animals were horribly created by humans. Their lives today are only there to make humans fat and happy. Food animals make us fat and pets are for our delightful happiness.

Let the rape continue?

[boatsteem1]

I am going to re-post my quote in its entirety. The question i got was:


Well what about a dog that is laying in the middle of the street dying? would you rescue it then? I know that sounds mean and I am sorry I am not trying to be mean I am just curious. I guess I really mean what do you mean by "rescue"

I answered:


Indirect thinking leads me to ask: what about all the animals that are being slaughtered to provide food for the dog?

Even if the above mentioned only applies to meat eating pets, even vegetarian pets indirectly consume land, water, and resources in order to be fed. Most pet species can't live solely off of grass. This leads more to an environmental argument than a ethical one. Pets consume huge amounts of resources (try counting the number of pets in the world and you'll likely end up with 100+ millions). In most parts of the developed world we have almost no natural environments left, leaving thousands of species endangered due to habitat loss. Not just mammals! Insects, plants and many other invisible species are affected by this. It takes a lot of resources to feed 100+ million pets.

If I saw a dog dying on the street I would have it be put to sleep. The problem (the pet owner) has already been done. The dog's presumably terrible life can't be undone. But we can change the future. Actually, just by owning pets you promote pet owning to non-pet owners. Getting fewer people to own pets in the first place is the right way to tackle the situation.

[boatsteem1]

I don't think this post shows evidence of wanting to kill any, let alone all animals. This person was talking about finding a dog on the street which is already dying. I realise many of us would make efforts to save the dog if it were possible but it doesn't mean the poster (who lives in Sweden) doesn't care - clearly from other posts they do.

As I've shown in the full quote above, my argument for putting a dying dog to sleep was being put in contrast to how many animals will die in order to feed the living dog, should one decide to save it. Indirectly, saving one animal will kill hundreds of others (if it's going to live for a few years).

This indirect thinking is something most people are not capable of.

[RubyDuby]

I apologize. I thought you were speaking about people on this forum not welfarist organisations. My bad.

From the looks of it though, the last few posters made this mistake as well.

I find it amusing that u selectively chose to not quote the part where I did give an example of somebody on this forum. I don't see much point in responding to your other post, since you obviously missed what I was saying, or more likely were arguing for the sake of arguing.
moving on...

thank you for coming by mazatael. I may not agree completely with your views (as I believe in taking care of the the pets who are already alive- and my dogs are vegan), but I do understand what you are saying and appreciate u adding ur 2cents on here, on request. :)

[EcoTribalVegan]

I find it amusing that u selectively chose to not quote the part where I did give an example of somebody on this forum. I don't see much point in responding to your other post, since you obviously missed what I was saying, or more likely were arguing for the sake of arguing.
moving on...

thank you for coming by mazatael. I may not agree completely with your views (as I believe in taking care of the the pets who are already alive- and my dogs are vegan), but I do understand what you are saying and appreciate u adding ur 2cents on here, on request. :)

I find it amusing you took mazateal's quote out of context! The question was phrased that the dog was already dying (presumably painfully) in the streets...:rolleyes:

I was addressing the fact that you were using PeTA to speak for people on this group...Which once again is putting words in many people's mouths...

[RubyDuby]

critical reading would've shown that peta was used as 1 of 3 examples.

as I said 'I am under the impression' and PMed a poster who I believe holds this view in order to get his side, therefore not putting words in his mouth.

I wish there were no reasons for domestic animals to be made extinct, however there are people who do believe that is the right thing to happen. I was stating my opinion on this idea based on this post.
Agreed Gogs! Frankly it has upset me that there are vegans who would actively try to make domestic dogs extinct, a worse crime in my opinion than meat-eating!

To clarify further, Mazatael- What do u believe should be done about dogs who are alive already and not dying? (I did make an assumption that u would have them put down bc of the land/resources/meat they would be consuming in the meantime).