"Pets" - Which of these statements do you agree with?

[Mahk]

However I don't think getting rid of cats would necessarily save many cows, in the short to medium term anyway, because the cows aren't being killed specifically to feed the cats.(

That can be a slippery slope though. Leather isn't their primary product either but certainly you wouldn't suggest it is OK for us to wear leather, right?


cue mahk...only bc mahk likes to expose all sides of an argument.
please take no offense!
:p Finally, someone who gets me. :)

I don't know anything about gov. subsidizing; not my field. All I know is that not a single part of the cow goes to waste:
- "good meat" becomes human consumable steak
- "spent" dairy cows become hamburger
- organs for cat/dog food etc
- fetus become suede and rennet for cheese
- offspring become veal
- hide becomes leather
- stomachs are sold at my local Asian food super market
- bones/hooves/tendons/ligaments get boiled to extract gelatin used in some brands of guacamole here in the US
- bones are then turned into bone chip as a fertilizer and or filtering compound
- some bones (although not US or EU) are put in kilns and baked to a char to make bone char for filtering sugar, water, Vaseline (which would otherwise be brown) and as a common dye for certain inks and paints.

Edit to add: left over fat goes to the hidden "rendering industry" which turns it to purified tallow to make soap used to wash dishes at many "vegan" restaurants, vehicle tires, and many chemicals to make American bread.:D

Edit to add some more: oops, I think I missed my cue and was supposed to bring up a contrary opinion. Oh well I'll leave my post anyways. OK how about this: Maybe we should kill off all animal life on Earth, including humans, and that way there would be no more "suffering". [joke]

[harpy]

Leather isn't their primary product either but certainly you wouldn't suggest it is OK for us to wear leather, right?

No, but there are are acceptable alternatives to leather whereas it's debatable whether there are acceptable alternatives to meat-based catfood (and boy, have we debated it :) )

I agree with you that there is somewhat of a parallel though, which is why I wrote the second paragraph about pet food subsidising the meat industry.

[gogs67]

I'm not really sure what your response had to do with the point I was making. Maybe you didn't mean to quote me or maybe there is a misunderstanding on one of our parts.

My point was in regards to decisions we have to make in life. Actual things that we have the power over doing... I wasn't talking about which boxes were clicked on the poll.
I was just pointing out that the majority of the folk that have replied over these 16 pages agreed with your way of thinking!;)

[cobweb]

i find this discussion to be bordering on insanity, frankly! :amazed_ani:

(a small point, Mahk, there are plenty of vegan detergents available for vegan restaurants, etc!)


to me the whole issue with 'pets' is the 'fettered friend' thing, the assumption by humans that we have any rights atall over animals. However, clearly humans have been keeping captive/domesticated animals for a long time, and, also clearly, there is a huge problem with 'discarded pets' :mad:.

I have known vegans get shirty with me in the past for working in sanctuaries (as apparently this makes me a kind of cog in the pet 'ownership' wheel, rehoming abandoned animals). Whilst i think it's great to have lofty ideals, as others have said, this is Real Life. In Real Life there are thousands of companion animals roaming the streets, being euthanased, being abused, waiting in animal shelters, and more on waiting lists to go into shelters. These animals need help now. They don't need to wait until we decide whether it may be hypocritical for us to feed and keep them :rollseyes_ani:.

I won't go looking for any more 'pets' but if an animal turns to me for help then i will personally do whatever i can. As usual it's humans that are the problem and it's meat eating humans who are the hypocrits for eating one sort of animal whilst keeping another sort as a 'pet'.

As has also been said, it is possible to feed many 'pets' vegan diets, but for those that need meaty food, well imo it's a compromise, and it's a facility that comes about as an aside to the mass murder of animals for human 'food'.

[Mahk]

(a small point, Mahk, there are plenty of vegan detergents available for vegan restaurants, etc!)
True they exist, and I use them myself, but I find here in the states that only half of them use vegan labeled soap (I'm speaking of what I find in their restrooms actually. I don't know for sure what the kitchen uses). Admittedly my sample size is extremely small though.

Interestingly one of them that had vegan branded soap had a fish aquarium in the main restaurant! :eek: Are there such things as rescued fish? I kind of doubt it.

[RubyDuby]

I was just pointing out that the majority of the folk that have replied over these 16 pages agreed with your way of thinking!;)
well, i still think my response was perfectly relevent and resonable in its context right here on page 16. ;)

[Manzana]

Interestingly one of them that had vegan branded soap had a fish aquarium in the main restaurant! :eek: Are there such things as rescued fish? I kind of doubt it.

Hi Mahk, I have rescued fish in my house. A friend of mine did not want to keep them any longer and I have adopted them... I am not sure about the ethical implications of this but they seem fairly happy and I got them a pretty big tank so they hopefully live in better now conditions than they were living in before i adopted them!

[harpy]

If you Google there seem to be a few individuals and organisations in the UK that do fish rescue e.g.

http://www.animalloversunite.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=35697&sid=b17a0c927e79dc80cd0f444d0ddec955

[gogs67]

well, i still think my response was perfectly relevent and resonable in its context right here on page 16. ;)
As do I.

[BlackCats]

I have known vegans get shirty with me in the past for working in sanctuaries (as apparently this makes me a kind of cog in the pet 'ownership' wheel, rehoming abandoned animals). Whilst i think it's great to have lofty ideals, as others have said, this is Real Life. In Real Life there are thousands of companion animals roaming the streets, being euthanased, being abused, waiting in animal shelters, and more on waiting lists to go into shelters. These animals need help now. They don't need to wait until we decide whether it may be hypocritical for us to feed and keep them :rollseyes_ani:.


Yes exactly CW.:)

(I also hate when people use the word euthanised to describe killing pets as I associate that word with putting something out of it's misery from having bad physical health and some pets that are put down are perfectly healthy. I'm not referring to you saying it CW I used the word earlier in this thread myself, just in general when people use it. It's like using the word culling, there is a detachment about what the act really is *rambles*.:rolleyes:)

[cobweb]

i agree, actually, BC, 'euthanasia' is just a poncey word for killing someone.

[leedsveg]

BlackCats

I am a vegan and have never had a companion animal and never wanted one. (By the same token I would never have wanted to own a human slave either.) When you say " ...I think people have a duty to take care of the animals", which "people" are you talking about?

[gogs67]

BlackCats

I am a vegan and have never had a companion animal and never wanted one. (By the same token I would never have wanted to own a human slave either.) When you say " ...I think people have a duty to take care of the animals", which "people" are you talking about?
I think she was talking about ALL people!
But, just the same as it's your duty to defend your country if under attack, take care of the elderly or pay taxes, it's up to the individual whether you actually do these things or not!!

[BlackCats]

BlackCats I am a vegan and have never had a companion animal and never wanted one. (By the same token I would never have wanted to own a human slave either.) When you say " ...I think people have a duty to take care of the animals", which "people" are you talking about?

I would be talking about me! I'm a person. :D I know other vegans don't share my views as is obvious from this discussion but I personally feel guilt for the millions of animals languishing in shelters when I am willing and able to give them a home. I don't have to be vegan either, that's my choice. You don't have to keep a companion animal if you don't want to obviously that's your choice. I can't tell from your comment whether or not you are against vegans keeping rescue animals.

(Btw I have had tons of human slaves too, they're great, you should get one.:rolleyes:)

[fiamma]

I can't tell from your comment whether or not you are against vegans keeping rescue animals.

Perhaps I'm reading between the lines too much but it seems pretty obvious to me ;) Are all your cats rescues, BlackCats? I think it's wonderful if so, wonderful either way actually. I have nothing against keeping companion animals, much less so if they're rescues.

I bought my (hunting) dog from a breeder - should I feel guilty about that? He's such a sweetheart and when I think of him in the hands of a hunter it breaks my heart.

[BlackCats]

Perhaps I'm reading between the lines too much but it seems pretty obvious to me ;) Are all your cats rescues, BlackCats? I think it's wonderful if so, wonderful either way actually. I have nothing against keeping companion animals, much less so if they're rescues.


(Probably it is obvious Fiamma.:D Two of my cats were strays but the others were bought from my non-vegan days. I will rescue more though if/when I can convince my husband.:smile:)

I think I should stay away from this thread just like I try to stay away from the abortion and religion threads. The debate ends up being very circular.:rolleyes:

[sandra]

BlackCats

I am a vegan and have never had a companion animal and never wanted one. (By the same token I would never have wanted to own a human slave either.) When you say " ...I think people have a duty to take care of the animals", which "people" are you talking about?


Hi Leedsveg, what would you do if a cat or dog approached you on the street and you knew it had no food or shelter? Would you walk on and leave it to whatever fate had in store or would you give it that food and shelter?
Sometimes life isn't as simple as we would like it to be. I look after 11 cats who were previously homeless...........most of them came to me by their own free will. I didn't go looking for them but because I have a love of all life I couldn't turn them away when they needed help. :)

[leedsveg]

Hi Sandra, what would you do if a tramp approached you on the street and you knew he/she had no food or shelter? Would you walk on and leave him/her to whatever fate had in store or would you give him/her that food and shelter?
I suspect a cute and cuddly animal would stand more chance of getting help/attention than would a tramp.Sometimes life isn't as simple as we would like it to be...

[snivelingchild]

....umm.....who wouldn't give him food? I try and get every homeless person I see food, and usually, if they know where a shelter is, and know how much (usually around here it's like $4-$7 a night) I'll give them the cash for that night if I have it. I have, on occasion, even gone to an ATM to give people cash (only a couple circumstances, I don't go around throwing money away).

However, I think domesticated animals are more like children. I would hope no one would pass up a homeless or lost child on the street without getting them to authorities that will help them find their/a home. It's the same with finding a cat and bringing them to a no kill shelter.

[missbettie]

Hi Sandra, what would you do if a tramp approached you on the street and you knew he/she had no food or shelter? Would you walk on and leave him/her to whatever fate had in store or would you give him/her that food and shelter?
I suspect a cute and cuddly animal would stand more chance of getting help/attention than would a tramp.Sometimes life isn't as simple as we would like it to be...


for the most part i believe that people put themselves in a situation to be homeless, by making wrong decisions. NOT in all cases however, but there are many many options in most areas for them, like shelters...and at human shelters they don't kill you...whereas animals never choose to be homeless or without food, and the shelters they get stuck in, for the most part do kill them. the only options domesticated animals have is to be adopted.

[sandra]

Hi Sandra, what would you do if a tramp approached you on the street and you knew he/she had no food or shelter? Would you walk on and leave him/her to whatever fate had in store or would you give him/her that food and shelter?
I suspect a cute and cuddly animal would stand more chance of getting help/attention than would a tramp.Sometimes life isn't as simple as we would like it to be...


Hi Leedsveg,

I could be wrong but do I detect a little hint of sarcasm in your post?

To answer your 'question' I would try to help a homeless person as much as I could but just as Snivelingchild and MissBettie have said it is not exactly the same thing is it? :)
Human adults are in a slightly different category from helpless animals who are usually at the mercy of sometimes cruel humans.

Having said that, if it was the done thing and orphaned children roamed the streets I'd probably bring them home to live with me too............that however would be against the law!:p
So, you see it comes down to compassion and common sense!
To me, not to help an animal in distress would be un-vegan................and you still haven't answered my questions Leedsveg! :)

[cobweb]

Leedsveg that is a silly thing to say!

Humans can (usually) find a way to communicate quite clearly with other humans and have many rights that non-humans do not enjoy.

[leedsveg]

Hi Sandra
I wasn't intending to be sarcastic, just posting the problem from a different perspective. When I talked of a cute/cuddly animal standing more chance of getting help/attention than a tramp, I meant help/attention from the great mass of the public, not from you in particular because obviously I don't know you. My apologies for a lack of clarity.
I still stand by my general statement, although I may be wrong and all over the country, on the spur of the moment, more people are taking in homeless tramps than dogs and cats.

Hi cobweb. Sorry to sound a bit thick but I'm not sure I follow what you are saying in response to what I posted?

As vegans, we choose to do the least harm and the most good but how we carry out these tenets might be slightly different for each of us.

Peace & compassion.

[cobweb]

what i mean is this - how can you compare a 'tramp' with a stray 'pet'?.

The 'tramp' has basic human rights, is probably capable of communicating directly with other humans (e.g, "Please, I need help"), and probably has a basic understanding of danger.

On the other hand, a 'cute and cuddly' cat (for example) that has been abandoned and has no food, shelter, etc, is unable to ask directly for help and is at the mercy of every human that he/she meets - and has no recognisable means of assistance (cats can't walk into feline homeless shelters, DSS offices, that kind of thing).

As a side note, i have know a few tramps in my life, all lived that way by choice, one was actually a millionaire.

[gogs67]

I still stand by my general statement, although I may be wrong and all over the country, on the spur of the moment, more people are taking in homeless tramps than dogs and cats.

.
I know from my work with Shelter that there is certainly a far wider support network and help for homeless people than there is for stray animals in the UK hence my predisposition to take a stray animal into my home rather than a stray human!
Although both deserving cases i would say the animals tend to be overlooked far more!