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DancingWillow
Jun 10th, 2007, 05:00 AM
facts for argumentative and defensive omni's:

http://www.vegsource.com/how_to_win.htm

Wishes
Jun 13th, 2007, 04:27 AM
Those are all great points. The problem is, many meat eaters do not want to listen to it and will become hostile. I had someone of a board related to a movie inform me if I was so worried about my impact on the earth I should just kill myself.

The best part is, this board stated it was ultra friendly and welcoming but not one moderator made a comment or removed the post. I left the board without responding to the post. I wouldn't waste my time.

Odinsfury
Jun 13th, 2007, 04:59 AM
At the risk of sounding cliche, the best way to win an argument with a meat-eater is to avoid it in the first place. Instead of practicing winning these types of arguments, I've thought of more ways to avoid being drawn into them in the first place. Most people have been eating meat for so long that they don't believe it is wrong and think it's an eccentric idea when they find out that you don't.

Korn
Jun 13th, 2007, 08:48 AM
While there may be no reason to try to 'win' an argument with a meat eater, most of us meet them all the time, and I don't see a reason to try not to communicate with them.

But we don't need to justify being vegans - we simply avoid doing things we feel aren't right, because we think it's better for the animals (that's obvious), for the environment (nobody suggested that eating animals or support is better for the environment anyway), and for ourselves (what can be better than living as close to the way you want to live as possible)?

There's nothing more to justify than if you're on a bicycle ride, see a cat, and make a turn not to collide with it. Nobody would ask why we did NOT harm the cat, they would understand that we just followed our instinct.

If there's anyone who need to justify what they do, it's people who do stuff that harm others when they don't need to. We simply try our best to avoid that, and if someone finds this provoking, they have a problem, not us. :)

Sgable84
Dec 11th, 2010, 09:44 PM
I just litterly had a fight with my dad as he walked into the living room as I was watching a documentary about the Sea Shepard. He stated how the whalers were assholes for killing a whale for food. I of course mentioned "whats the difference between a whale and a cow? They both feel pain" And then it started. It was very frustrating. I even whipped out my copy of "vegan freak".
It was very horrible...it just ended in yelling and both of us walking away.

Now, I can be prepared for next time :)

Clueless Git
Dec 12th, 2010, 12:46 PM
I just litterly had a fight with my dad as he walked into the living room as I was watching a documentary about the Sea Shepard. He stated how the whalers were assholes for killing a whale for food. I of course mentioned "whats the difference between a whale and a cow? They both feel pain" And then it started. It was very frustrating. I even whipped out my copy of "vegan freak".
It was very horrible...it just ended in yelling and both of us walking away.

Now, I can be prepared for next time :)
May I chip in a tip?

You kinda got the knife in with the opening one liner there Sgable and my guess is that you saw that in your dads eyes and went straight in for the kill?

Using the analogies that "you have to pick your battles carefuly in order to win a war" and t'one about "never corner a wounded animal" ...

That was probably a 'one-hit battle win' for you there. A definite wound, as it were?

May have been a bit of a mistake to wade straight into a freshly battle wounded daddy in the hopes of an immediate win of the war ..



For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill.
Sun Tzu

Glen Lambert
Dec 12th, 2010, 06:04 PM
Q. Why are you a Vegan?

A. Because there is no real reason not to be.

Job done and move on.

Sgable84
Dec 13th, 2010, 07:29 PM
May I chip in a tip?

You kinda got the knife in with the opening one liner there Sgable and my guess is that you saw that in your dads eyes and went straight in for the kill?

Using the analogies that "you have to pick your battles carefuly in order to win a war" and t'one about "never corner a wounded animal" ...

That was probably a 'one-hit battle win' for you there. A definite wound, as it were?

May have been a bit of a mistake to wade straight into a freshly battle wounded daddy in the hopes of an immediate win of the war ..

Yeah, you are right to some degree. But my dad is also the old fashioned 63 year old who thinks that cell phones and ipods are stupid to have and that no one should be using them, so he "always right"
I for sure could have gone about it a different way.

mini_mi
Dec 14th, 2010, 12:56 AM
Yeah, you are right to some degree. But my dad is also the old fashioned 63 year old who thinks that cell phones and ipods are stupid to have and that no one should be using them, so he "always right"
I for sure could have gone about it a different way.
When it comes to family members, for the sake of peace in the home, i usually just explain why I do what I do and leave it at that. if the person asks for more information (is recpetive to the vegan ideals), I will provide it in a non-confrontational way. Been my experience you can't force anyone to your way of thinking in any area. You can only plant the seed for future thought on their part.

Clueless Git
Dec 20th, 2010, 10:33 AM
Yeah, you are right to some degree. But my dad is also the old fashioned 63 year old who thinks that cell phones and ipods are stupid to have and that no one should be using them, so he "always right"
I for sure could have gone about it a different way.
For what it's worth ...

At 63 it is much harder to confront that something you have believed to have been perfectly OK for a whole lifetime is, in fact, perfectly NOT ok Sgable.

Sometimes when my mum and dad kick off (they are in their 80's now) I kinda see them more as victims of the meat industry (particularly of its lies, half truths and fear instilling tactics) than as perpetrators of it.

I kinda figure that mebbe that when people are really old that they are kinda like 'obligate carnivores'. The habit energies of a long lifetime are so strong ... so much harder to embrace radical change as we enter old age ...

As the estimable LV said (loosely) "if compassion isn't there than neither is veganism in any meaningfull form".

Personally I agree with that (aspects of 'idiot compassion' aside) and am going to be giving much thought as to waht is the most compassionate way to explain veganism to people of 'senior' age.

harpy
Dec 20th, 2010, 12:40 PM
Hmm, my mother stopped eating meat in her late 60s, shortly after I went lacto-veg (i.e. about 20 years ago). However I don't think she did really think it was OK before that but she hadn't got around to doing anything about it for various reasons. So there are probably a range of different attitudes among older people, same as any other demographic group.

Sgable did say his/her dad was oldfashioned :) Even so, as he is anti-whaling you may find he comes round to your point of view a bit more now that you have pointed out the similarity. I would just give it a bit of time to sink in.

pat sommer
Jan 5th, 2011, 08:46 AM
a little humor can make a point without the pain: next time dad comes out with sympathies toward an animal...

"careful Dad, if you keep going in that direction, you'll be vegan!"

treehugga
Aug 2nd, 2011, 06:19 AM
Recently I stated that my son had a zoo excursion and I would struggle supervising the children as I really don't like the zoo. A number of people replied really negatively stating things like ''what about the breeding programs'', ''how the hell do you tell if an animal is miserable or not'', ''they have plenty of room and are well looked after'' & ''it avoids extinction''. I replied that last time I went many of the animals were in tiny cages and I felt it was cruel to have them in conditions where they can't fly, run, or swim. I feel sad that people don't get my right to my opinion. I don't lecture other people on theirs.

CoolCat
Aug 2nd, 2011, 10:41 AM
^ People are dumb buying into the breeding programs and extinction thing. How many species that were extinct in nature have been successfully reintroduced by the zoo's? With the few hunderds or thousands of individuals of a species in captivity you most likely won't save them and even if you do you would have a weak gene pool. And why do they need to perform tricks for their keep like the dolphins, orca's and seals?



And what the hell are meerkats doing in the zoo's everywhere:

Conservation Status

No species of mongoose is known to be threatened or endangered (The Living Desert Zoo & Gardens).
Meerkats are also known as Suricates or slender-tailed mongooses.


Other Comments

The Honolulu Zoo houses only male meerkats. This is to ensure no possibility of an escaped group to establish a breeding population. If this were to occur, they could seriously damage the natural ecosystem (Honolulu Zoo, 2001).



Zoo's just want the cute species that are being hyped in the media so they could draw in more visitors.


/end rant

treehugga
Aug 2nd, 2011, 11:39 AM
I know Coolcat. So nice to hear from someone who thinks so too :)

JennyB85
Dec 17th, 2011, 05:45 AM
I've some what have converted my mom, although I do catch her doing non-vegan acts... it's better than nothing I guess. Other family/friend meat-eaters I can't seem to get through. I guess I'll just have to stick it out until they are having to pop pills for all their health issues. Then I can be like "who has none of these problems because they are vegan???" yeah that's right..."winnnnning!".

I've found that if a meat eater is truly stuck in their ways then there is no winning the argument with them. There are people out there who truly do not give a damn. :mad:

airalien
Dec 30th, 2011, 09:12 AM
One of the things, I found, non-vegans ask for, in debates, is a source. All these facts are great, and I completely believe them, but is there a reliable source they come from that a non-vegan couldn't refute by simply showing a different study?

I can find studies in favour of a vegan diet but there are also studies against; so what can we really argue as fact?

Korn
Dec 30th, 2011, 11:48 AM
I can find studies in favour of a vegan diet but there are also studies against; so what can we really argue as fact?
Since there's no such thing as a (as in 'one') vegan diet, one can't argue against 'a vegan diet'. A vegan diet may consist of sugar and junkfood, which of course isn't healthy. I haven't seen any studies against a vegan diet', but none 'pro' a vegan diet either, because - again, there isn't one vegan diet. But there are many studies and articles discussing side effects of eating animal products. (Some of them are listed here: Animal products: health risks (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?139-ANIMAL-PRODUCTS-HEALTH-RISKS)).

If scintific studies can confirm that consuming animal products in 'normal' amounts most likely will cause health problems at some point, we have a health argument against using aninal products (in normal amounts) right there.

But of course, if there would be no way to live on a vegan diet without health problems either, we wouldn't have an health argument pro living on a healthy, varied vegan diet either. Luckily, there are people who have spent a lot of time comparing studies of various kinds of vegan - and animal based - diets. The most know is ADA - the world's largest organization of food and health profesionals. (They'll change name to 'Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics' very soon).

Here's what they say (my emphasis):


It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases.

Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients.*

An evidence-based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs.

* This part is IMHO not very well written. If a vegetarian/vegan diet can meet the requirements for all these nutrients, both in some ancient, organic past paradise and today, supplements wouldn't be needed. IMO they should emphasize that we don't live in such a world anymore, and that if one doesn't take B12 supplements, both vegans, lacto-vegetarians (and billions of meat eaters) will have either low B12 levels or become B12 deficient. Eating vegan/vegetarian has many benefits, but eaters usually have higher B12 levels than vegans and lacto-vegetarians. Too much B12 isn't good either (and is asssoicated with certain serious health problems) (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?169-B12-overdose-megadose), but that doesn't mean that low B12 is good.


With some Googling you'll find their full report - a long, detailed pdf with many refrences to relevant studies.



The main misunderstandings - among nonvegans - seem to be that...
1) humans can't get enough protein or B12 without eating animals (animals which only eat plants)
2) if a vegan is found to be ill or lacking in certain nutrients, it's because he is a vegan, but if a non-vegan becomes ill or lack certain nutrients, it's not because of his diet, he's just ill or need some vitamins.
They often ignore deficiencies in one or more nutrients is the rule, not the exception among non-vegans.


The main misunderstanding among some vegans seem to be that...
a) B12 doesn't come from animals (but from bacteria), and we can IMO with almost 100% certainty know that B12 would be freely available in a 'natural', non-sterilized world with only organic food, healthy soil, fresh/local food, non-chlorinated water etc. (<--- correct)
b) We never need to take (B12 or other) supplements, and that the talk about need to take B12 for vegans is only propaganda from anti-vegan activists. (<--- wrong)

Vegans may get deficienies as well, and B12 is the nutrient to pay most attention to. It doesn't help us that nonvegans generally are deficient in many nutrients (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?24-Nutrient-deficiencies-more-common-in-meat-eaters-than-in-vegans), or have B12 deficiencies (9%) - or low B12 levels (39%).


So... in short, it's not possible to compare 'a' vegan diet with 'a' non-vegan diet. One can live on either and may a long life without any serious health problems. This is probably easier or a vegan, or for one with a very low intake of animal products: all the problems associated with a normal consumption of meat, eggs and dairy (cancer, diabetes, heart disease etc) suggests that animal products in anything but small amounts represents a health risk. An animal free diet is healthy, as long as one eats well - and take supplements when/if needed.

If one doesn't eat enough, doesn't eat healthy and varied food, or ignore the need for supplements when they are needed, NO eating 'plans' are healthy.

Mymblesdaughter
Dec 30th, 2011, 04:30 PM
Airalien have you read The China Study it's well worth a read. It gives you lots of information and scientific facts about why a vegan diet is the best diet for health.

Ed
Mar 21st, 2012, 09:54 AM
Meat eaters are meat eaters cause they don't think the same.
And unless they find out for themselves they will never know. I was a meat eater and most of us were. I bet the majority of us became vegans because we came to a realisation, or an epiphany, not because someone told us, whether it was you saw a movie, or all of a sudden were repulsed by animal products, or you saw animals being slaughtered.
It wasn't cause a vegan rambled off quotes or statistics or nutrition information.
Don't get angry at meat eaters, if they had the same thought process as us they wouldn't do it. But they don't, and you cant change them, they must change themselves.
I don't bother to try change them....

and what do i say when they give me grief, well I'm lucky cause I'm 6'3 and work out, so i just say, "well I'm still physically superior to you" and "I've got enough strength to pin you down, and *expletive* you"... haha, only to other guys though, I'm not actually serious.

JennyOt
Apr 3rd, 2012, 05:14 PM
My brother in law came out with an infuriating argument.
He said by not eating meat I am reducing the number of animals being born, and who am I to decide whether an animal should be born or not?
My response of who are you to decide it should die for your food, provoked him to say, but at least they get to be alive for a while... who am I to decide they shouldnt be born at all.
ARGH!!! So frustrating!
Its just such a stupid thing to say.

Glory
Apr 3rd, 2012, 05:40 PM
He does realize that the meat industry decides how many animals are born by slaughtering and selling those animals right?

Kat_90
Apr 4th, 2012, 04:34 PM
After being vegan for 1 week, my friend told me she was reducing it to 4 days a week, as she realised the meat industry provides thousands of humans with jobs they would not have otherwise, and she wouldn't be where she was if her grandfather was not a butcher. She was putting 'human welfare' above 'animal welfare' in a very superior and annoying way. I struggled to think of a response on the spot, which probably just confirmed her view even more. FRUSTRATING. What would everyone else say to this?

JennyOt
Apr 4th, 2012, 04:54 PM
It sounds to me like she is making excuses to justify her eating meat.

Kat_90
Apr 4th, 2012, 05:23 PM
True, but infuriating! As if I'm doing a bad thing by putting animals first! Pfft..