Vaccinations

[Mahk]

^:D LOL!

Epilepsy? Oh that's an easy one. Get 6-9 hours of sleep and do daily meditation and it will go away. You have to heal yourself from within. :rolleyes: ["Health Tips" bullet points #3 and #4 from the guru. (http://www.healthranger.org/healthtips.html)]

If of course for some odd reason that suggestion seems to fail, don't blame Mr Health Ranger. He didn't make a mistake; you simply weren't trying hard enough, you see.



"Sorry, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, little Timmy died from pneumonia because [B]you weren't waving the magic wand like I showed you. Please be more careful next time."

:p

[snivelingchild]

That's an insult to voodoo and its practitioners.

[Quantum Mechanic]

^:D LOL!

Epilepsy? Oh that's an easy one. Get 6-9 hours of sleep and do daily meditation and it will go away. You have to heal yourself from within. :rolleyes: ["Health Tips" bullet points #3 and #4 from the guru. (http://www.healthranger.org/healthtips.html)]

If of course for some odd reason that suggestion seems to fail, don't blame Mr Health Ranger. He didn't make a mistake; you simply weren't trying hard enough, you see.



"Sorry, Mr. and Mrs. Smith, little Timmy died from pneumonia because [B]you weren't waving the magic wand like I showed you. Please be more careful next time."

:p

Especially not easy when you have some kind of sleep disorder, and no matter how much sleep hygiene you follow (no coffee or alcohol and very rarely tea), exercise, bright light in the morning and low light in evening, set "bed time" and "wake time", etc., you keep falling asleep a few hours later each "day" until you cycle throughout the whole week. (Though still getting a good 8+ hours a "day"!) Darn, guess I'm just not thinking positive enough! :rolleyes:

[Haniska]

I went through the "Don't trust medicine." phase myself.
An aspiring raw vegan and naturalist I figured all humans were perfect and we only had to follow the rules for optimal health.
I still believe that we have to follow the rules. A person cannot expect to have optimal health when they are not getting enough vitamins, minerals, exercise, sleep, etc required for life.
That is that.
And putting aside for a moment that it is hard to live an optimal lifestyle, people are born with deformities. I watch what I eat and make sure to eat small meals throughout the day to keep my sugar level. This helps my attention span. I go to bed at 10pm and get up at 6am. This helps.
The benefits are hard to measure as that is the baseline, but actively doing these things benefits my attention span about 7% as much as taking medicine.

Aside: I have a lot of respect for surgeons, I mean, seriously, who else can replace broken parts?

[tizer]

There is no need for mockery, Mahk. Diet and exercise do play an important part in the maintenance of good health. However for a specific illness, such as epilepsy, one needs to find the underlying cause of the dis-ease and choose the therapy that one intuitively feels will cure the problem. No doubt, Quantum Mechanic, you are being treated by conventional medicine and it has obviously not helped you.

Those who scoff and point to unsuccessful cases or of people who have died following their choice of alternative care rather than conventional medical treatment fail to place a similar burden on conventional medical to explain those who fail to heal and the thousands who die each year under conventional medical care and those given up as incurable by medical practitioners, some of whom recover after seeking alternative treatment.

Several years ago a friend of ours was diagnosed with cancer. I suggested to her husband that she seek an alternative route rather than the usual chemo-radiotherapy route. The oncologist scoffed at the suggestion, “you’re joking of course blah, blah, blah …” about 18 months after making that remark we attended the lady’s funeral.

We have another friend who was diagnosed with breast cancer over a year ago. I likewise suggested to her to try an alternative route to chemo-radio. She did not entertain this idea putting her faith instead in conventional medicine. When she was last seen about 3 months ago, judging from the way she appeared, it is unlikely that she will be around by next Christmas.

My cousin is a doctor (General Physician). His wife died of cancer about 2 years after she was first diagnosed with the disease. I can quote many more cases of people I knew who died or failed to be cured by conventional medicine

My wife is a nurse and she has first-hand experience of death and dying. She knows all too well that there are no cures for dread diseases, only palliative care!

Mahk, you have not challenged my example of people who live quite successfully without modern medicine. What have you say about them?

Here is an extract from the Mormons (a.k.a. Latter-day Saints) on the subject of Cancer Prevention:
“Science has also looked specifically at Latter-day Saints to see if our health practices influence our chances of getting cancer. The results are encouraging.
When looking at Latter-day Saints living in Utah, one study found a 24 percent lower rate of developing cancer. Looking at just smoking-related cancers, the study found a 50 percent lower incidence in men and a 60 percent lower incidence in women compared to the US rate.
A University of California Los Angeles (UCLA) study of Latter-day Saint high priests in California found they were about 50 percent less likely to die from cancer and 70 percent less likely to die of tobacco-related cancers than the general population.
Life expectancy for Latter-day Saint males living in Utah is 7.3 years longer than their non-LDS counterparts. Female Latter-day Saints appear to live longer too—an average of 5.8 years”.

[Mahk]

Mahk, you have not challenged my example of people who live quite successfully without modern medicine. What have you say about them?
This thread is about vaccinations, if you want to talk about how you don't understand why individual stories about a FOAF (http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/skeptic/anecdotal.html), anecdotal evidence, urban legends, and hearsay are all pretty much worthless, aren't permissible in a court of law, and are routinely shunned by scientists, then start another thread.

I'm still waiting, tizer, for you to name any expert collective body such as

A) any country
B) any major news organization
C) any medical school/college/university
D) any general medical institution
E) or any general public health organization

that opposes vaccinations. Find any yet?

[snivelingchild]

You are closing your mind to arguments about anything related to what you are talking about, (which they are) and expecting someone to argue based on what you think the bottom line is. Furthermore, you have ignored that fact that most people on this thread have said that vaccines shouldn't ALWAYS be taken (that the individual have to weigh the consequences v. risks for themselves, and their INDIVIDUAL case) and continue to assume that anyone who is against the way vaccines are used is against any person of the face of this planet should never ever take a vaccine under any circumstance, or they will die.

[cvC]

My wife is a nurse and she has first-hand experience of death and dying. She knows all too well that there are no cures for dread diseases, only palliative care!


Would you believe that a cure for cancer was invented by a genius called Royal Raymond Rife in the first half of the last century, but was then suppressed? You can read more about it at the link below and from which this is an extract:


In 1934, the University of Southern California appointed a Special Medical Research Committee to bring terminal cancer patients from Pasadena County Hospital to Rife's San Diego Laboratory and clinic for treatment. The team included doctors and pathologists assigned to examine the patients - if still alive - in 90 days.

After the 90 days of treatment, the Committee concluded that 86.5% of the patients had been completely cured. The treatment was then adjusted and the remaining 13.5% of the patients also responded within the next four weeks. The total recovery rate using Rife's technology was 100%.


http://www.rense.com/health/rife.htm

[Quantum Mechanic]

Diet and exercise do play an important part in the maintenance of good health.

Of course, and we have all heard this from our doctors I am sure, in addition to it being common sense for most people.


However for a specific illness, such as epilepsy, one needs to find the underlying cause of the dis-ease and choose the therapy that one intuitively feels will cure the problem.

Rather than select a therapy based on an intuitive feeling, I would rather go based upon evidence-based studies and the recommendations of a doctor (or two) who is familiar with my symptoms/case and any relevant records/info/test results.


No doubt, Quantum Mechanic, you are being treated by conventional medicine and it has obviously not helped you.


One thing is right - yes, I am being treated with what is considered conventional medicine. Wonder why the assumption that it does not work for me? Seems strange, considering that prior to treatment I would have at least one or two tonic clonic seizures a month, and several simple partial and complex partial seizures a week. During treatment, I haven't had a tonic clonic seizure, and only one, occasionally two simple or complex partial seizures in a month (these latter kind don't involve falling down, and often don't involve losing consciousness).

And I'm no fan of the pill-for-every-ill mindset, but when it makes sense to take an effective treatment to allow you to get along in life without seizures getting ever more frequent, or whatever the health problem is, then I drop that resistance and look for the most sensible option. And when it comes to disease prevention, a combination of healthy lifestyle and vaccination falls into that umbrella.

[Mahk]

You are closing your mind to arguments about anything related to what you are talking about.

There has been zero scientific evidence presented, other than blog entries, fake or rinky-dink "news" groups, forum quotes, and anecdotal, unconfirmable stories of "My friend's, cousin's, neighbor's ,wife's, son had a vaccine and then developed a learning disability in later life so we know that vaccines caused that", and the like.


Furthermore, you have ignored that fact that most people on this thread have said that vaccines shouldn't ALWAYS be taken (that the individual have to weigh the consequences v. risks for themselves, and their INDIVIDUAL case) and continue to assume that anyone who is against the way vaccines are used is against any person of the face of this planet should never ever take a vaccine under any circumstance, or they will die.

Incorrect, those "rights" argument just haven't been the focus recently, since only Tizer and I have been active. Vaccine scaremonger sites like NVIC often put on a lot of window dressing implying they are "just about giving people a choice" and throwing around the word "freedom" but when I actually analyze their "factoids" content there is nothing but a lot of pseudo science mumbo jumbo, half truths without citations included, and plain old scaremongering.

There is a huge difference between the government insisting people wear safety belts (a law here where I live at least) vs. insisting that schoolchildren get immunized against measles. If a deluded individual falls prey to the anti vax crusaders' nonsense ["Don't do it! Tony Blair and the US/UK governments are trying to harm you!"] and refuses the jab (shot) they are needlessly endangering my kid's health by sending their non-inoculated kid to my kids' school. The MMR jab, like all vaccines, isn't a 100% guarantee against infection but it improves one's odds tremendously. This is also true of safety belts; you are not guaranteed you won't be harmed in a crash but your odds are improved. Sending my kids to a school full of non-inoculated kids with paranoid and delusional parents who refused the immunization jeopardizes my kids health!:mad: because herd immunity can not be achieved. These delusional parents are analogously increasing the likelihood of car crashes. Yes my kid wearing the safety belt gives me some protection but I'd rather there not be any crashes in the first place!

If people have the right to refuse any vaccine at will, then I get the right to insist they have to home-school their kids and keep their children away from mine. They can jeopardize their own kid's health if they want, but they have no right to jeopardize my family because of their superstitious, unscientific fears.

We've already totally eradicated many diseases, such as small pox, thanks to vaccinations, but because of the poor uptake of the vaccines thanks to the efforts of the scaremongers we can't even achieve herd immunity to some diseases like measles, which is the first step to eradication.

[snivelingchild]

You have the right to refuse others the ability to go to public school?!?! And THEY are being crazy paranoid? Thank GOD the government doesn't think like this. Just so you know, kids don't have to be immunized to go to school.

[Mahk]

You have the right to refuse others the ability to go to public school?!?! And THEY are being crazy paranoid? Thank GOD the government doesn't think like this. Just so you know, kids don't have to be immunized to go to school.

In America, yes they do, Sniv. It varies from state to state, and there are religious and "unusual health condition" exceptions in place, but the government sides with me on this important issue of public health. They are generically called "school laws":

"School immunization laws

Each state has immunization requirements, sometimes called "school laws," that must be met before a child may enter school. These may include vaccination against diphtheria, pertussis (whooping cough), tetanus (lockjaw), Haemophilus influenzae type b, measles, mumps, rubella, polio, and hepatitis B. Some states have added varicella (chicken pox) vaccination to the list of required vaccines. Smallpox vaccination was once required, but the disease has been so successfully eradicated that this vaccination is no longer needed...

These required vaccinations don't just protect the children in a classroom. They protect the teachers, parent volunteers, visiting grandparents, and everyone else who enters the classroom or provides services to the school. The blanket of protection provided by rubella ("German measles") vaccination is especially important for women who are pregnant. Rubella can cause serious effects on the developing fetus, including deafness, blindness, heart disease, brain damage, or other serious problems, including miscarriage. Today's middle-aged adults may remember how common this disease was before the rubella vaccine became available. Rubella was feared for its effects, including ear infection, pneumonia, diarrhea, seizures, brain damage, and death."

from: Center for Disease Control and Prevention (http://www.hhs.gov/nvpo/law.htm)

(part of the US government)

[cvC]

I'm still waiting, tizer, for you to name any expert collective body such as

A) any country
B) any major news organization
C) any medical school/college/university
D) any general medical institution
E) or any general public health organization

that opposes vaccinations. Find any yet?

The link below is to a post in another thread in which you made the following statement and I'm still waiting for you to provide the evidence described and as I requested:


Overwhelming evidence shows that fluoride toothpaste and optimal fluoridation levels in our public drinking water significantly reduces (but does not eliminate) our risk of tooth decay ("dental caries", aka cavities).

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=423820&postcount=79

The following is from an article I remember seeing last year and which is about a case in which the US government does seem to have conceded that there was a link between vaccinations and autism:


After years of insisting there is no evidence to link vaccines with the onset of autism spectrum disorder (ASD), the US government has quietly conceded a vaccine-autism case in the Court of Federal Claims.

The unprecedented concession was filed on November 9, and sealed to protect the plaintiff's identify. It was obtained through individuals unrelated to the case.

The claim, one of 4,900 autism cases currently pending in Federal "Vaccine Court," was conceded by US Assistant Attorney General Peter Keisler and other Justice Department officials, on behalf of the Department of Health and Human Services, the "defendant" in all Vaccine Court cases.

The child's claim against the government -- that mercury-containing vaccines were the cause of her autism -- was supposed to be one of three "test cases" for the thimerosal-autism theory currently under consideration by a three-member panel of Special Masters, the presiding justices in Federal Claims Court.

Keisler wrote that medical personnel at the HHS Division of Vaccine Injury Compensation (DVIC) had reviewed the case and "concluded that compensation is appropriate."

The doctors conceded that the child was healthy and developing normally until her 18-month well-baby visit, when she received vaccinations against nine different diseases all at once (two contained thimerosal).

Days later, the girl began spiraling downward into a cascade of illnesses and setbacks that, within months, presented as symptoms of autism, including: No response to verbal direction; loss of language skills; no eye contact; loss of "relatedness;" insomnia; incessant screaming; arching; and "watching the florescent lights repeatedly during examination.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-kirby/government-concedes-vacci_b_88323.html

[Quantum Mechanic]

I don't have my words too organized (quite early), but this blog responds to that, with this quote in particular of note:


David once again insists that HHS medical personnel “conceded that the “cause” of Hannah’s “autistic encephalopathy” was “vaccine induced fever and immune stimulation that exceeded metabolic reserves.”“
Where?
I asked twice in the comment thread that followed where this HHS document was and if we, the general public, could read for ourselves – and in context – these words. I am not suggesting David is lying at all. However, by his own admission David has been wrong more than once on what were previously firmly held opinions. This is nothing that should be being speculated about. We need to see this document.
Lastly, Gerberding, Offit et al were quite right to use the phrase ‘features of autism’. That is the phrase that both the HHS report and the case study (co-authored Jon Poling) used. Some say it is hair splitting but I don’t believe that saying someone has autism is the same as saying someone has features of autism. I’ve expounded on this before for those interested but suffice it to say I have a similar eye colour to Clive Owen. This doesn’t make me Clive Owen (much to my wife’s disappointment).

http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?cat=80&paged=2

[Prawnil]

Say I was putting together a Moderator's Handbook, and was working on my new fun chapter called "The moments a contributor steps over the boundary past which the thread is doomed for locking.", this

If people have the right to refuse any vaccine at will, then I get the right to insist they have to home-school their kids and keep their children away from mine.
would probably go straight in.
I am personally well enough convinced that vaccination works, but not that the unconvinced ought to face quarantine. Pharma controveries aren't trivial, and give people ample reason to be forgivably, not-irrationally suspicious.

If the school situation this revolves around is not hypothetical, and you have a fair idea of vaccine uptake %, plus the best estimate for Herd-effect threshold %, and that opt-out numbers exceed this, then there's a reason to **** yourself. I'm not convinced that a tirade against the "superstitious", "delusional" anti-vaxers endangering our childrens' lives on the basis of an imaginary school "full" of antivax kids is any less paranoid "scaremongering" (especially if school laws probably preclude these uninoculated kids' numbers being significant in most schools).
Laying on thick the ad hominem nonsense you've warned other posters off previously does nothing for your argument (though I don't, basically, disagree with you).

[Mahk]

The link below is to a post in another thread in which you made the following statement and I'm still waiting for you to provide the evidence described and as I requested:

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=423820&postcount=79
This is a vaccination thread. Post more at the fluoride thread, if you wish, but keep fluoride discussions out of this thread please.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
News flash. This just in:

Scientists now agree that the vast majority of the general population is susceptible to falsely attributing illnesses that they contract to unrelated, coincidental incidents in their lives:

"Last week my biopsy for liver cancer came back and showed I have a growth the doctors think is malignant. Just the week prior to that a different doctor scanned over my chest with a mysterious instrument like probe I am unfamiliar with that I suspect emitted a strange radiation into my chest cavity which most likely induced the cancer in my otherwise healthy body.

Here's a link to a safety organization that shows how radiation exposure induces cancer, as proof:http://www.radar3.com/ [;)]

I am still researching if I have grounds for a class action suit against this dangerous liver cancer inducing doctor because of the use of this dangerous probe he refers to as a "steth-o-scope".

:p

[Mahk]

Laying on thick the ad hominem nonsense you've warned other posters off previously does nothing for your argument (though I don't, basically, disagree with you).
Is there a more polite way to say a group of people, the anti vax crusaders and their sites I monitor, are paranoid/delusional/misguided? I can't think of any but will gladly consider alternative more polite words that have the same meaning.

Would you be equally troubled if I said I thought people who believe in personal demons and gremlins were paranoid/delusional/misguided, or is it OK to talk about them that way but not anti-vax crusaders?

To me they are exactly the same, science doesn't back either group, however only one of those two belief systems threatens my own personal heath and safety and that of my family's and my government agrees with me by the implementation of school laws which I support.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Beware the anti vax crusaders many disguises:

"I’m referring, of course, to the antivaccinationist movement, and the rally was known as the “Green Our Vaccines” rally, led by the celebrity couple Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey and organized and funded by Talk About Curing Autism (TACA), Generation Rescue (upon whose board McCarthy now sits), and a panoply of other groups that promulgate the myth that either vaccines containing mercury in the form of their thimerosal preservative or vaccines themselves cause autism.

“Green Our Vaccines”: Anti-vaccine, not “pro-safe vaccine”

The first thing that becomes apparent to any neutral observer is that the organizers themselves clearly went to great lengths to deny that they are “anti-vaccine.” Indeed, the overall mantra of the march appeared to be “I’m not anti-vaccine; I’m pro-safe vaccine,” a mantra that was to be waved in front of the press during the time before, during, and after the march like a talisman to ward off skeptics. Indeed, a couple of days before the rally David Kirby, chief apologist for the “mercury causes autism” movement, ex-travel writer for the New York Times and author of a book (Evidence of Harm: Mercury in Vaccines and the Autism Epidemic, A Medical Controversy) that arguably did as much to promote the claim that mercury in vaccines causes autism as Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.’s execrable bit of fear-mongering that appeared in Salon.com and Rolling Stone almost exactly three years ago did, tried unconvincingly to argue that he isn’t anti-vaccine. Meanwhile Jenny McCarthy herself has been frequently quoted as saying:

What I really am is “anti-toxins” in the vaccines. I do believe that there is a correlation between vaccinations and autism. I don’t think it’s the sole cause, but I think they’re triggering–it’s triggering–autism in these kids. A really great example is…is, sometimes obesity can trigger diabetes. I do believe that vaccines can trigger autism…It’s so much more than just mercury. That is one ingredient in the recipe of autism…People don’t realize that there is aluminum, ether, antifreeze, still mercury, in the shots.

I’ve referred to this before in the context of the Generation Rescue ad that first introduced the “Green Our Vaccines” slogan to the world. Indeed, I doff my hat to the organizers at this march they’ve framed the issue with such a wonderfully Orwellian slogan that’s brilliant because of how difficult it is for rational scientists to counter. After all, who doesn’t want “safer” vaccines? No one, of course! Not even the the man who is to antivaccinationists the Devil incarnate, vaccine scientist and defender Paul Offit, would say that he doesn’t want safer vaccines, too. Indeed, he’s spent his career trying to do just that: Develop more effective and safer vaccines. Certainly I can’t argue with making vaccines as safe as possible. They happen to be, by any reasonable measure, remarkably safe right now, but there’s always room for improvement. What the press and others at whom this crunchy eco-friendly message of reassurance and seeming reason that fits right in with the current mood of the country is aimed don’t realize is just one thing. After all, if there are indeed all sorts of horrible toxins in vaccines, shouldn’t we get rid of them? It all sounds so measured, so reasonable, and so conservative.

Too bad it’s about as disingenuous as it gets. Like Steve Novella, I have no doubt that Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey mean well, but I agree that it’s not enough to mean well. There’s a famous saying that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. My usually corollary to this saying is that good intentions coupled with misinformation and self-righteousness are the straightest and surest route to hell that I can think of, and among the best examples of this corollary are parents who have been misled by the pseudoscience of the cottage industry of autism quackery that depends on the belief that vaccines cause autism for its profitability. Couple that with the arrogance of ignorance, which Jenny McCarthy exhibits in abundance and which apparently drives her to conclude that attending the University of Google qualifies her to shout down doctors and scientists on Larry King’s show, and you have a truly toxic brew of self-righteously misdirected anger."

Science-Based Medicine (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=139) full article is at the link.

[snivelingchild]

In my state, at least, you can refuse and it doesn't have to be on a religious basis. I assumed there must be a way to refuse in most states.

[cvC]

This is a vaccination thread. Post more at the fluoride thread, if you wish, but keep fluoride discussions out of this thread please.


Your failure to provide something that I'd requested in another thread is relevant to your harangue of another member for not providing something that you'd asked for here, one difference being that he hadn't claimed it to exist in the first place. I have, as I've said, already made the request for you to provide the "overwhelming evidence" you'd claimed for something in the relevant thread.

[Mahk]

^Oh, OK, I guess that makes more sense to me now.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
[Sorry to be slightly off topic for a brief moment folks but cvC seems to want the "overwhelming evidence that Fluoride is safe and effective" claim I made in another thread backed here, so here goes]:

A) Here is a link to a list of 358 references including many scientific studies published in peer reviewed medical and dental journals [no blogs! ;)] of studies which support fluoridation as being a safe, effective, and inexpensive means in the fight against tooth decay: [see pages #58 through #67 of this PDF file (http://www.ada.org/public/topics/fluoride/facts/fluoridation_facts.pdf)]

B) Here (http://www.ada.org/public/topics/fluoride/facts/compendium.asp) is a different list of "National and International Organizations That Recognize the Public Health Benefits of Community Water Fluoridation for Preventing Dental Decay":

Academy of Dentistry International
Academy of General Dentistry
Academy for Sports Dentistry
Alzheimer’s Association
America’s Health Insurance Plans
American Academy of Family Physicians
American Academy of Nurse Practitioners
American Academy of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology
American Academy of Orthopaedic Surgeons
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Academy of Pediatric Dentistry
American Academy of Periodontology
American Academy of Physician Assistants
American Association for Community Dental Programs
American Association for Dental Research
American Association for Health Education
American Association for the Advancement of Science
American Association of Endodontists
American Association of Oral and Maxillofacial Surgeons
American Association of Orthodontists
American Association of Public Health Dentistry
American Association of Women Dentists
American Cancer Society
American College of Dentists
American College of Physicians–American Society
of Internal Medicine
American College of Preventive Medicine
American College of Prosthodontists
American Council on Science and Health
American Dental Assistants Association
American Dental Association
American Dental Education Association
American Dental Hygienists’ Association
American Dietetic Association
American Federation of Labor and Congress
of Industrial Organizations
American Hospital Association
American Legislative Exchange Council
American Medical Association
American Nurses Association
American Osteopathic Association
American Pharmacists Association
American Public Health Association
American School Health Association
American Society for Clinical Nutrition
American Society for Nutritional Sciences
American Student Dental Association
American Water Works Association
Association for Academic Health Centers
Association of American Medical Colleges
Association of Clinicians for the Underserved
Association of Maternal and Child Health Programs
Association of State and Territorial Dental Directors
Association of State and Territorial Health Officials
Association of State and Territorial Public Health
Nutrition Directors
British Fluoridation Society
Canadian Dental Association
Canadian Dental Hygienists Association
Canadian Medical Association
Canadian Nurses Association
Canadian Paediatric Society
Canadian Public Health Association
Child Welfare League of America
Children’s Dental Health Project
Chocolate Manufacturers Association
Consumer Federation of America
Council of State and Territorial Epidemiologists
Delta Dental Plans Association
FDI World Dental Federation
Federation of American Hospitals
Hispanic Dental Association
Indian Dental Association (U.S.A.)
Institute of Medicine
International Association for Dental Research
International Association for Orthodontics
International College of Dentists
March of Dimes Birth Defects Foundation
National Association of Community Health Centers
National Association of County and City Health Officials
National Association of Dental Assistants
National Association of Local Boards of Health
National Association of Social Workers
National Confectioners Association
National Council Against Health Fraud
National Dental Assistants Association
National Dental Association
National Dental Hygienists’ Association
National Down Syndrome Congress
National Down Syndrome Society
National Eating Disorders Association
National Foundation of Dentistry for the Handicapped
National Head Start Association
National Health Law Program
National Healthy Mothers, Healthy Babies Coalition
Oral Health America
Robert Wood Johnson Foundation
Society for Public Health Education
Society of American Indian Dentists
Special Care Dentistry
Academy of Dentistry for Persons with Disabilities
American Association of Hospital Dentists
American Society for Geriatric Dentistry
The Children’s Health Fund
The Dental Health Foundation (of California)
U.S. Department of Defense
U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs
U.S. Public Health Service
Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA)
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC)
National Institute of Dental and Craniofacial Research (NIDCR)
World Federation of Orthodontists
World Health Organization

What I was challenging tizer to find was a similar such orgaization, just one, such as these, that opposes vaccinations. There aren't any because in the world of science, medicine, and public health there is no "debate", no controversay, despite the claims of many anti-vax groups otherwise. That was my point.

[cvC]

Sorry to be slightly off topic for a brief moment folks but cvC seems to want the "overwhelming evidence that Fluoride is safe and effective" claim I made in another thread backed here


No, I have not asked you to back up your claim about fluoride here. What I did do was to refer to your failure to do so in the relevant thread in response to your harangue of another member for not coming up with something that you'd demanded here and which he hadn't claimed to exist in the first place.

Since you have started discussing fluoride here, I'll just quickly provide some evidence from the horse's mouth as it were and this is from an article by a horse breeder who'd moved her stock from a non-fluoridated to a fluoridated area:


The winter of 2003/04 was the first in over 10 that we had snow on the ground all winter. We noticed our outside 100-gallon heated water tank of city water only needed filling every 18 days instead of the usual every day and a half. The horses were eating snow instead of drinking the heated fluoridated water. They knew it was poison. The symptoms in all the horses started leaving.

http://www.slweb.org/ftrcpersonalstories_cathy.html

[snivelingchild]

This shit is dumb.

[Mahk]

Blogs!:eek:

[bradders]

as I've said before I do believe in vaccination but I do think it is an individual's choice. That said there is a point where it is not really a parent's choice in all cases. Just like a parent can't chose not to send their children to school/ provide assessed nationally approved education and courts can force children to have medical procedures deemed in their best interests that parents do not wish their children to have (e.g. blood transfusion and Jehovahs witnesses) . The same an apply to vaccination too. This is to ensure that the best interests of the child are looked after at all times. However I have concerns about issues such as line drawing with respect to both the age at which a child becomes self responsible and the types of vaccines/ surgeries that may be compulsory. Some such as the BCG are incredibly important while others such as the flu jab are less important for most age groups.
Looking at flouridation of water from a vaccination perspective I can see the potential for benefit, however there are many who have adverse reactions to flouride in the water and unlike chlorine it does not readily evaporate over short periods of time. As you cannot pass on tooth decay to others transmission is not an issue so it must be an individual's own choice whether or not they use a flouride based prouct. Adding flourideto the water is therefore not the right way to aid dental health, perhaps spending the money on public dental care, health education, providing oral hygiene products would be a better use of resources.

[kriz]

Aside: I have a lot of respect for surgeons, I mean, seriously, who else can replace broken parts?
Well said Haniska.:thumbsup: