Vaccinations

[Nivvie]

We have had our child vaccinated, as like Tails, I've seen what happens when you don't.
Also, working with learning disabilities, I have also seen people who were perfectly normal until they had vaccinations as children, and suffered severe reactions. It did scare me and make me question vaccinations a lot, but I saw more children who'd suffered from the diseases, and ended up with permanent disabilities, than I saw children who'd had reactions. You'd be amazed how many of the people in group homes had meningitis, measles, etc as children, and it left them permanently brain damaged.

I myself am well and truly pumped full of vaccinations, I even had the multi-injection abdominal rabies jab years and years ago.
Nowadays my immune status is checked regularly as my job exposes me to all sorts of diseases.
NHS hospitals won't employ you without immune status, but I once knew an agency HCA who caught hepatitis A, and it's just not worth it.

The problem is, if everyone stops vaccinating their children you will see a return of such things a polio, and we have already seen the return of TB.
There was a case of Diptheria a while back, which was luckily caught in time. It used to be a HUGE killer of children, and all but disappeared. We really don't want it back.

The problem is you can't go back.
Once the child, or you, has the disease, it's too late to vaccinate, and the drugs used to try and save you or your child, will again be non-vegan and animal tested.

This to me is similar to the plane crash argument, would you eat meat is it was a survival situation.
Sometimes the plane crash is illness and the meat is drugs. If you'd rather die than use an animal tested drug, that's up to you, but I don't see the gain. No animals will be saved.

[Dome]

It is good to consider what a vaccination actually is. A vaccination is a minor infection with a pathogen in order to induce the body to create antibodies to fight it. Infect the organism in order to cure it.

This is just another backward-thinking therapy of allopathy, as in taking serotonin-reuptake inhibitors like Zoloft or Prozac in order to prevent the brain from reabsorbing serotonin, the body's natural tranquilizer, in an effort to improve mood. That's their logic.

But if one eats foods high in tryptophan, the brain will naturally produce more serotonin. That is why tryptophan is now a controlled substance. Vegans can beat that by eating plenty of bananas and raw sunflower seeds, which are high in tryptophan. Or you can find 5-HTP, a naturally derived substance from a plant, and get the same effects. But I digress.

Much better to use a preventative medicine: Good diet, good supplements, plenty of exercise, fresh air, sunshine, and rest. Good hydration is important too.

Fresh garlic is an excellent antibiotic and tonic. I have used colloidal silver and seen good results. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration has classified it as a drug, so I cannot out-and-out recommend it. That would be practicing medicine without a license, ya see. Big pharma executives hate colloidal silver and health supplements. Hence CODEX ALIMENTARIUS which threatens the health rights of everyone.

[sugarmouse]

i haea been vaccinated with things when i was young and had no say-as i got older and when i went to colleege i didnt get anyof the jabs reccomended- the 'hippy'in me does not agree with it, although to be perfectly honest i know very little about vaccinations and what risks i am taking by not having them.obviously it isnt natural...but then we do not live in an ideal world.i feel i am just not very sensible when it comes to things like this!
i dont have kids and wont..i guess this is a moral dliemma for those who do.i think if i did, imay get them done. i would want to protect them in the best way i could, and when they were old enough, it would be their own choice.but as i said i am totally uneducated in this area!

[kokopelli]

Although I am totally against vivisection and animal products in medication as a vegan, I would have to have my children (if I had any!!) vaccinated. Knowing what I know I would not take the risk putting my ethics before safety of children, its just not worth the risk.

Those who have never had their child vaccinated and come through it without a scratch are dammed lucky.

I just wish there was an alternative. :(


Well I looked into the whole vaccination issue very carefully before deciding what to do. I read a very informative book called 'The Role of Medicine' by Dr Thomas McKeown (unfortunately it seems to be out of print now). It's a study of infectious diseases over time, and it demonstrates that rates of all the diseases for which vaccinations are available were falling fast before the vaccinations were even introduced, mainly due to increased awareness and hygienic measures, such as plumbing, diet and clean water supply. It seems that plumbers have safeguarded the health of the nation at least as much as doctors.

I checked in Martindale's Pharmacopeia and found that at the time my eldest child was supposed to be immunised, ALL the polio cases in this country (which were in single figures at that time) were actually caused by the vaccine itself.

If I had ever thought that vaccinations were absolutely necessary to protect my children's health, I would definitely have had them vaccinated. Now they're old enough to decide for themselves.

Actually, to me the whole notion of deliberately introducing disease organisms into babies' systems seems dodgy, although I can see how they probably help in the short term in situations where overcrowding, insanitary conditions and inadequate diet leave children vulnerable. Surely in the long term, it's better to eliminate the conditions in which diseases thrive, to ensure the overall health of the population?

[Nivvie]

Actually, to me the whole notion of deliberately introducing disease organisms into babies' systems seems dodgy, although I can see how they probably help in the short term in situations where overcrowding, insanitary conditions and inadequate diet leave children vulnerable. Surely in the long term, it's better to eliminate the conditions in which diseases thrive, to ensure the overall health of the population?


But that's how we acquire our immuntiy to everything. The body needs a taste of something, even if means, like in the case of many chicken pox situations, having the illness itself.

One thing I do agree with is giving it to babies, I think they are a little young, and although reactions are incredibly rare, I don't see any real harm now there is a limited number of these diseases to vaccinating after one year of age. The un-vaccinated children I have seen die, have always been bigger, toddlers and up.

The bigger issue with vaccinations is the fact that the more diseases we beat, the more appear or mutate. We will never be disease free, no matter how clean and healthy the world is. Nature needs a culling method, so really, is there any point?
Of course there is to a limit, and people will always want to prevent the prevenable, but the fact is no matter how healthy and safe you think you are, you're not. There'll always be something new, and for a good long while, incurable, lurking in the pipeline.

The conditions which cause many diseases in the western world aren't really realted to conditions we can change anymore.
I've seen a child die due to a barbed wire cut. She had tetanus, and died in her sleep, so no one was there to see the muscle spasms, and her parents just thought she had flu. I've seen countless children die of meningits, and again, the TB that's resurfacing, a lot of it has been communicated.

I wish we didn't have to vaccinate, I wish it wasn't an issue, but these days in my new capacity, day in day out I deal with the corpses of the diseased, and when it was preventable or treatable, it's sickening, especially the children.

[kokopelli]

I guess it's an issue everyone has to decide on for themselves. It isn't easy.

Anyway, I found "The Role of Medicine' on US Amazon, here's a quote from a review by Malcolm Fraser:


... luckily I took and kept lots of notes. This is an excellent book, and with the data then available to him, McKeown makes a clear and compelling case. Replying to Julie Masis' point, one example did illustrate a before-and-after scenario. In whooping cough the death-rate declined from over 1400 per million children in the 1860's to less than 100 in 1950/51 when immunization became available. On the accompanying graph in the book, there was even a slight rise in the death-rate during the winter of 1950-51, after which the graph resumed its previous trend. The introduction of vaccination did not even speed up the decline in the disease.
In measles, the death-rate per million children had already declined from its peaks of over 1200 in the 1860's and around 1890, to virtually nil in 1970, before immunization was introduced.

If paying consumers are making informed choices, then there is no problem. If medical, educational and social behaviors are being determined by "myths and dreams" it may help to look at facts.

I have not seen a better book on this subject since its publication 25 years ago, nor adequate refutation of its central thesis. If further data exist to modify McKeown's views, let's hope an equally clear and succinct writer presents it for us.

[NorVegan]

I am partly vaccinated, I had the vaccination they has putted in my when I was a child, but not all the teen and adult vaccinations. But I am not sure what I have, and what I don’t have, and that irritates me a bit.

I know I don’t have the second MMR (measles/mumps/rubella), but I had the one when I was a child.

The scary thing about not be immune fore the rubella is that if a woman gets rubella when she is pregnant, it might effect the child.

Rubella is as far as I know not dangerous fore the adult, and I see no reason fore boys/men to get that shot. But if I ever has a daughter, I will try to get her infected whit rubella, instead of getting the shot. If that is not possible, maybe the rubella shot will be considered.

Mumps is as far as I know not dangerous fore a young boy ore a girl/woman at any age, but can make a boy that have reached puberty sterile. So I can’t see the reason fore a girl to have this shot? But fore a boy, maybe, if it is impossible to get him immune more naturally.

Measles is the only disease in the MMR I can understand to put in a child, no matter gender. But I am not sure what we will chose when (or if) that time comes.

So to try to conclude here:

I don’t think I want a future child to be fully vaccinated, but I am a bit unsure about the measles, so I hope that it is possible to get only the measles shot, and not the whole MMR in one shot. I think that is one of the reasons fore that the many problems connected to the vaccination, it is tree shots in one, and makes a huge shock fore the small body. To give a 15 months old child the whole MMR in their body at once is NOT an option I would accept. But on the other hand, you have one other shot (DTP-polio-Hib) that is 5 diseases in one, that shot is given when the child is 3 - 5 AND 11/12 months. So 3 huge shots in the first year. I am not sure how OK that is either. But I haven’t heard so much about serious problems about that vaccination compared to the MMR?

[Dome]

But that's how we acquire our immunity to everything. . .

Isn't that just the theory behind it, though?

Nivvie, with great respect for your professional experience, I will say, vaccines may do what they are intended to do in most instances, but surely there must be a better way, because they have the potential to and do in some cases cause the diseases they were given to prevent. This M.D. says so, anyway.
http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/causing_illness.htm

There are links at the bottom left of this web page article to other articles about the ill effects of vaccination.

[Nivvie]

It's a known fact that for the body to build an immunity it has to learn to make the correct antibodies it has to 'meet' the pathogen.

I agree vaccinations aren't nice, and yes, they can give you disease, but that's a different issue.
For example, the flu vaccine is a big culprit for this, but that's due to the level of health before the jab. All the cases I've known of people getting flu from the jab involves people who shouldn't have been given it anyway. Even a killed pathogen can cause a disease if the immune system is not strong enough to treat it properly.

My wish for vaccines is that the health of the patent is checked properly first, that they are not given to tiny babies, and that there is more post-jab monitoring.
For example, some health visitors ask parents to wait with their children in the waiting room for half an hour after the jabs, as if there is likely to be a serious, brain damaging injury, the child will cry non stop. Most babies cry at first, but it subsides after ten minutes of so. If a baby is still upset past the half hour, they are transfered to hospital, and usually there is nothing wrong, but if there is, the damage can be limited. These precaustions should be universal.

I don't like jabs or anything that's unnatural and seems unnecessary, but like I said, preventable child death is very upsetting.
When I was a baby there was a big whooping cough scare, and it was the one disease my mother decided against, and unsurprisingly, there was then a big rise in whooping cough and many children, including myself, had whooping cough, and many died.
The fact remains million and millions of children and adults are vaccinated every day, and the percentage of those that have reactions is tiny. There is always going to be a risk in medicine, a chance of dying on the operating table, of having an adverse effect to any medication. It's only natural that that risk is in vaccinations as well.

If there was a bettter, proven way to mass-irradicate disease from the world, I'd be the first in line.

[Dome]

. . . If there was a bettter, proven way to mass-irradicate disease from the world, I'd be the first in line.

Thanks Nivvie. We'll just hope something better comes along.

[kokopelli]

When I was a baby there was a big whooping cough scare, and it was the one disease my mother decided against, and unsurprisingly, there was then a big rise in whooping cough and many children, including myself, had whooping cough, and many died.

If there was a bettter, proven way to mass-irradicate disease from the world, I'd be the first in line.

The question remains, though, is it true to say that vaccinations are what caused the decline in deaths from infectious diseases?

According to the research by Thomas McKeown, which I quoted above, the death rates had ALREADY fallen dramatically before the introduction of vaccines, due to hygienic measures.

Possibly the children who experience severe adverse effects from the vaccines are the same ones who would have succumbed to the disease naturally, maybe because of pre-existing general ill-health.

My personal opinion is that the best way to eradicate disease is to eradicate the causes of disease, such as poverty, bad housing, poor diet, contaminated drinking water, ignorance, war etc. But maybe vaccination is the best the state can do right now. After all, war, industrial food and pharmaceutical production are 'good' for the economy, due to the perverted way GNP is calculated.

I live in a dairy farming area, where TB outbreaks amongst their herds are a constant worry for farmers. But if you saw the crowded, unsanitary conditions the physically over-stressed cows live in, you'd understand why. To a large extent, the same scenario holds true for people, which is why infectious diseases claim most victims in war-time situations such as refugee camps. Vaccination is a poor substitute for peace, fairness and hygiene.

[Nivvie]

The question remains, though, is it true to say that vaccinations are what caused the decline in deaths from infectious diseases?

According to the research by Thomas McKeown, which I quoted above, the death rates had ALREADY fallen dramatically before the introduction of vaccines, due to hygienic measures.



But that's the thing, whooping cough had all but disappeared, but with the lack of vaccination, soon started up again.

My other hope is that many of these diseases will go the way of small pox, the first vaccinated disease. It was a HUGE global killer, and now is so rare it's not necessary to vaccinate against it anymore. At the time of Edward Jenner's discovery, one in three Londoners died of smallpox. Now the only reason to keep stocks is due to the fear of biological weapons

If we could just get sufficient 'clear' generations behind us, vaccination won't be necessary.

But still SARS, MRSA, bird flu....it's never gonna end.
It seems the only way to safely protect yourself from disease is to live disconnected from people. Nomadic Siberian Reindeer herders never catch anything.

[kokopelli]

But that's the thing, whooping cough had all but disappeared, but with the lack of vaccination, soon started up again.

My other hope is that many of these diseases will go the way of small pox, the first vaccinated disease. It was a HUGE global killer, and now is so rare it's not necessary to vaccinate against it anymore. At the time of Edward Jenner's discovery, one in three Londoners died of smallpox. Now the only reason to keep stocks is due to the fear of biological weapons

If we could just get sufficient 'clear' generations behind us, vaccination won't be necessary.

But still SARS, MRSA, bird flu....it's never gonna end.
It seems the only way to safely protect yourself from disease is to live disconnected from people. Nomadic Siberian Reindeer herders never catch anything.

But what about this statistic:

'In whooping cough the death-rate declined from over 1400 per million children in the 1860's to less than 100 in 1950/51 when immunization became available.'

...which was due to better living conditions. All those diseases you mention are proliferating due to lack of hygiene, and ultimately hygienic measures and education are the best way to prevent the spread of diseases, circumventing the necessity for invasive procedures.

Obviously it wouldn't be feasible or desirable for everyone to live disconnected lives, but there must be a happy medium between isolation and overcrowding.

[Nivvie]

But the worry will always be communication.
We have people arriving daily in the coutry and most cases of TB have been due to immigrants. The same goes with many of the cases of 'dead' diseases seen.
Although the chances are small, and it would be ideal for the world to be a clean, free place to live without overcrowding, it's just that, an ideal.

I truly hope it happens one day, for everyone's sake, but then, as always, the superbugs rise above.

I honestly think the whole world of medicine needs a MAJOR overhaul, and I could write pages on what's wrong today, but I'll just bore everyone.

[tails4wagging]

believe me you only to have to see one very young baby with whooping cough on a life support machine and you would have your child vaccinated. The baby still tries to cough and has to be sedated. Not a easy thing to see. because children are not vaccinated against it they can give it to the very young vulnerable babies.

[kokopelli]

Nivvie, I agree about the world of medicine needing a major overhaul, and it's great to know there are people like you working on the inside.

Tails, my kids got through childhood OK, if they ever did catch an infectious disease, I would certainly ensure they were kept away from vulnerable people. They also understand this issue very well, because we've had relatives with compromised immunity.

But don't you think it's interesting that whooping cough declined so markedly before vaccination was introduced? It does imply that vaccination is not the major factor in disease control in this instance. It also makes me wonder to what extent the efficacy of the vaccination programme has been hyped by government. Also, how do you know whether a child who contracts a severe case of whooping cough, would not also be one of the unlucky ones who react badly to the vaccine?

I agree the 'ideal world' is only an ideal, but it's an ideal worth working towards, and ultimately the best way to deal with disease generation and spread.

[tails4wagging]

I agree with what you are saying there, I had whooping cough as a child so bad I turned blue each time I coughed .

I have never nursed a child though who had, had the vaccine against any childhood disease then contracted a disease.

[Dome]

Has anyone read this? I used to have the hard copy of this book "Murder by Injection" and I let someone borrow it and never got it back.

http://www.whale.to/b/mullins2.html

[Stormypagan]

Hi :0)


Tetnus is carried in the stomachs of horses so yes not such a huge threat anymore unless you are not a veganic gardener and use horse manure on your roses etc..

My son is a life time vegan and never had a single vaccination. He is a happy, healthy, intelligent 6 and half year old (but hey I am biased <grin>) Luckly in this country they still don't insist on vaccinations for children that do go to mainstream schools :0) lets keep it that way!!

A great publication that you can subscribe to for the latest on vaccinations is the The Informed Parent (http://www.informedparent.co.uk/) I used this as part of my research when looking into it all when Lewis was born. I am 20 weeks pregnant now and again up dating myself with the latest on vaccinations, I still feel very strongly about not putting my next children through the vaccination program not only fpr animal rights reasons but health too. It might be harder now that I have left the South of England and moved to rural Cumbria coz it's farming country, as beautiful as it is, and we are the only vegans I know in the village hehehe!! But we are strong on our views and as a vegan for 17 yrs myself I have loads of experience hehehe!!

Love and light
Xxxx Stormy xxxX

[Dome]

"Nobody, anywhere or any time and under any circumstances has the right or power in this country to immunize you or your children against your will and conviction. If they attempt to do so, you can legally charge them with 'assault with a deadly weapon' and have the full resources of our laws here [USA]."

Read more here:
http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/legally_avoid_shots.htm

[kokopelli]

Hi :0)


Tetnus is carried in the stomachs of horses so yes not such a huge threat anymore unless you are not a veganic gardener and use horse manure on your roses etc..

Hi Stormypagan :)

One thing I'd really like to know, which I haven't found any information about so far, is whether tetanus is also carried by any other animals, eg cows, sheep, dogs etc, or whether it's only horses.

Have you ever read anything about this?

Also, there are some homeopathic treatments for the diseases for which allopathic medicine uses vaccinations. When my eldest child was very young, there was a whooping cough scare and I gave him the homeopathic pertussin.

Cumbria sounds beautiful, but despite being so rural, I'm sure you'll still be able to insist on your vegan rights. I lived in southern England also, before moving to Wales, and I experienced much more pressure over my decision not to vaccinate my children there, than I have done since moving. In fact, I found the health service to be very much more authoritarian there than it is here, although that might be because it waas quite a long time ago, so things have probably changed everywhere in the meantime.

Although I believe it's the case that GP practices have target percentages for vaccination coverage which they have to reach to obtain part of their funding, so that might partly explain the pressure they tend to put on parents who choose not to have their kids vaccinated.

[kokopelli]

"Nobody, anywhere or any time and under any circumstances has the right or power in this country to immunize you or your children against your will and conviction. If they attempt to do so, you can legally charge them with 'assault with a deadly weapon' and have the full resources of our laws here [USA]."

Read more here:
http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines/legally_avoid_shots.htm

Have you heard about the recent research and development in the US of a vaccine against drug abuse? This has apparently reached quite an advanced stage and the authorities are considering the possibility of making it compulsory for entry into the US public schoolng system.
:eek:

[kokopelli]

I just found this, which says that tetanus bacteria CAN actually infect faeces of other animals and humans.

http://www.talkmedical.com/diseases-disorders/954/Tetanus

Also apparently people have contracted tetanus following surgery, ear infection, through ulcers and various other unlikely routes.

[harpy]

Wikipedia writers believe tetanus can be picked up from the excreta of animals other than horses:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetanus

but I have been told before that soil is the most likely source of infection.

[Nivvie]

We once had a kid who picked it up after incessantly sucking on a ring.....on his finger, then in his mouth, and so on....the little dummy.