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Korn
Nov 28th, 2004, 11:27 AM
I mean, isnt it a bit ironic, that vegans hanker so much after the long lost taste of pig meat?If people have been living on a diet for many years, or doing anything at all over and over for years, a habit is created. I think fake meat is manufactured as such either for profit or to make it easier for people who still hasn't dropped old habit (or who find it difficult to do so) to drop meat. If someone eats meat for 25 years and decides to drop it, it's no surprise that all old habits don't drop dead overnight...

Artichoke47
Nov 28th, 2004, 03:50 PM
Celtic, there's no such thing as a health vegan. A vegan is a vegan for ethical reasons and possibly/usually environmental.

If someone is avoiding the consumption of animal products for health reasons, they are a strict vegetarian.

Some vegans may say that health was one of the motivating factors.

Artichoke47
Nov 28th, 2004, 03:53 PM
This sounds like an argument an omnivore would make. "(Laughing) Well, if you don't want to eat meat, why do you eat the meat substitutes? (Laughing and looking stupid)"

Hey, if someone wants to eat a "meat substitute," have at it; it's not causing any harm, assuming it's a vegan one. Just because people ate dead animals before "meat substitutes" or items with soy became popular doesn't make the second one similar or as bad as the first. Perhaps if people were more inventful/resourceful, tofu, seitan, and other soy products would have become popular a long time ago.

PinkFluffyCloud
Nov 28th, 2004, 05:17 PM
Artichoke, I totally agree, I hate it when meat-eaters (such as my parents!) use that silly argument, I just also agree that it seems a little sick to make some products not only look and taste like meat, but also name them after meat products, which were originally given misleading names in order to tempt people to eat them blindly.

celtic
Nov 28th, 2004, 05:43 PM
Celtic, there's no such thing as a health vegan. A vegan is a vegan for ethical reasons and possibly/usually environmental.

If someone is avoiding the consumption of animal products for health reasons, they are a strict vegetarian.

Some vegans may say that health was one of the motivating factors.


Hi Artichoke47

I'm afraid your slightly wrong here.

There are many people who are vegans because they want to cut out cholesterol from their diet altogether.

They cannot do this with a solely vegeterian diet as milk and eggs have cholesterol.

As we all know, cholesterol is only found in animal products.

Therefore there are vegans who come to be vegans for health reasons WHEN WE ARE REFERRING TO DIET.

PinkFluffyCloud
Nov 28th, 2004, 05:51 PM
Celtic, Korn and Artichoke mean 'Vegan' as in the definition of one whose Philosophy is not to use any animal/insect products/by products atall.
Some people claim to be Vegan, but in fact only omit animal products from their diet, whilst not embracing the whole concept (i.e still buying Leather/Silk/Wool products, etc.)

Artichoke47
Nov 28th, 2004, 05:52 PM
Vegans don't use any animal products and do it for ethical reasons.

There is no such thing as a vegan diet only; you can have an animal-product-free diet.

Sorry, but I'm not wrong. Thanks.

celtic
Nov 28th, 2004, 06:42 PM
Hi artichoke47

Whether you are right or wrong on definitions is unimportant here. We are knit picking. The point is everyone knows that what we are talking about is people who choose a 'vegan' diet for health reasons. You can call them what you like. But it is a fact they are dietary vegans.

But, hey, havent we left the main road here?

My post was not about definitions; it was about the prevelance of language which compounds animal exploitation.

You said....


Hey, if someone wants to eat a "meat substitute," have at it; it's not causing any harm, assuming it's a vegan one.


...

Well I have to disagree with you artichoke, because if we are not about trying to change the opinions of people that animal exploitation is wrong then I dont know what we are about.

Therefore to label vegan foods as something which resembles a dead animal is to me at least, contradictory.

How many times have we seen vegan products labelled as.....

Vegan....Chicken flavour crisps

Vegan....Chicken nuggets

Vegan....Hot Dogs "Just like the real thing"

Smokey Bacon crisps (suitable for Vegans)

Come on!

Can anybody see the danger here?

If we dont think it is harmful to refer to vegan products as dead animals then philosophically we have to concede that it is okay to

Tell jokes about blacks

or

Tell jokes about dumb blondes


If we dont, then we must think (logically) that sexism and racism, somehow is of more importance than speciesism.

I for one, regard murdering animals for taste and fashion(speciesism), a far more important issue than sexism and racism. Reason being; at least blondes and blacks can fight back.

Artichoke47
Nov 28th, 2004, 06:49 PM
No, they aren't vegans.

Roxy
Nov 28th, 2004, 06:52 PM
So given your explanations celtic; do you feel it is improper to call soy milk, soy "milk"? Or is that too close a relation to dairy milk?

I can see where you are coming from, and agree a little bit, as far as the Vegan Hot Dogs, Vegan Chicken Nuggets, Vegan Chicken Legs go.

However, I personally don't look at tempeh seitan and tofu as "meat substitutes". I consider them completely different products all together.

celtic
Nov 28th, 2004, 07:17 PM
No, they aren't vegans.

Hi artichoke47

I see you are still on that side track somewhere!

Come on back! We have moved on!

:)

celtic
Nov 28th, 2004, 07:22 PM
So given your explanations celtic; do you feel it is improper to call soy milk, soy "milk"? Or is that too close a relation to dairy milk?




Hi Roxy

No. Milk is different and is not only produced by female mammals. Flowers produce milk and there are numerous well known examples which we hear like coconut cacti etc daily.

Milk has various definitions but a common demoninator would be that it is a secretion of some sort.

Thats fine by me.

ConsciousCuisine
Nov 28th, 2004, 07:43 PM
Hi artichoke47. Whether you are right or wrong on definitions is unimportant here. We are knit picking.

Acually, that would be "nit" picking, as in "picking nits" from the hair of a vermin- infested person. :D

PinkFluffyCloud
Nov 28th, 2004, 07:46 PM
Acually, that would be "nit" picking, as in "picking nits" from the hair of a vermin- infested person. :D

But would that be a 'Vegan' pastime, CC?? :D

ConsciousCuisine
Nov 28th, 2004, 07:47 PM
But would that be a 'Vegan' pastime, CC?? :D
HA! I thought the same thing, and hoped someone else would go there :) HA!

PinkFluffyCloud
Nov 28th, 2004, 08:10 PM
HA! I thought the same thing, and hoped someone else whoud go there :) HA!

There you go then! 'Great' minds think alike! :D

Artichoke47
Nov 28th, 2004, 09:24 PM
So what's the point, really? Are you going to write to companies and ask them to change the name of their product?

Mystic
Nov 29th, 2004, 01:29 AM
I agree with Artichoke, in that the word vegan refers to something more meaningful than just diet, however I am repulsed by names like "not bacon", "beef" in blackbean sauce and eggless salad.

I have never tried seitan, but like Roxy, I too consider tempeh to be a product of it's own.

Hasha
Nov 29th, 2004, 02:57 AM
I am repulsed by names like "not bacon", "beef" in blackbean sauce and eggless salad.

I know!! :eek:

In my college dining hall, they sometimes serve things such as "beef" stir-fry. It took me a while before I actually tried the thing, just because I couldn't picture myself eating "beef", even though I knew perfectly well that it wasn't real. Once I tried it, it didn't taste too bad, though. And then we've got this thing called vegan turkey. In the two and a half years that I've been here, I haven't been able to make myself try it. Veg*ns don't eat turkey and turkey isn't vegan! (Besides, the thing looks way too processed to be healthy.) And the vegan cheese-steak? No. I just couldn't.

I really love tofu though. :cool: I've never thought of it as a meat substitute. I have heard it called soy cheese, but I didn't find it repulsive. I guess because at the time that I heard it, I was still lacto-ovo...

celtic
Nov 29th, 2004, 09:32 AM
So what's the point, really? Are you going to write to companies and ask them to change the name of their product?

Well. Many people do lobby companies and their representatives.

Or one could simply refrain from buying that type of product.

celtic
Nov 29th, 2004, 09:34 AM
Acually, that would be "nit" picking, as in "picking nits" from the hair of a vermin- infested person. :D


Hi ConsciousCuisine

I'm glad I saw the smiley at the end of your message there, cause for a moment I though you were.....nit picking.

;)

ConsciousCuisine
Nov 29th, 2004, 02:25 PM
Well, there was no "tongue in cheek" smiley...;)

paradoxsund
Jan 27th, 2005, 12:17 AM
I like tofu (really cooked though- plain makes me sick to my stomach), tempeh, and seitan, and tofurky,and pretty much most things. I make my own seitan and it's yummy, and I like baking tofu marinated. I don't eat to much processed products, but I pretty much like everything.

Evilfluffbunny
Feb 20th, 2005, 03:21 PM
I don't think I've ever met anyone like this, but I keep hearing about vegans and veggies who think it's wrong to eat meat substitutes. I'm just wondering if anyone here feels that way and if so, why? What bothers you about it? Do you feel it hampers the cause of veganism or animal rights in any way?

It's mainly actually meat eaters I've found to have a problem with it and I get sick of being asked "What's the point in eating fake meat, why don't you just eat the real stuff?" One guy even said "I know a great meat substitute - it's called a salad!". Arse. I don't know why people don't get it, I mean, no-one thinks it's strange that I wear obviously fake looking fur, they don't say "Well, if you wear that then you might as well buy a real mink coat.", so why can't they get their heads around the fact that some people enjoy the taste and texture of meat but don't want to eat dead animals? I'd eat fake human burgers or baby steaks if they were tasty, that's the whole point isn't it - they're fake! The more flavours and textures available the better as far as I'm concerned.

BTW, I'm not having a go at anyone who does personally think it's wrong, I'm just genuinely interested to know why.

l337_v3g4n_1
Feb 20th, 2005, 04:21 PM
I tink it's a bit creepy when it gets TOO real :p