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Ymber
Dec 10th, 2007, 08:26 PM
look up Penn & Teller's Bullsh*t, the episode about PETA. I don't have time to find the link right now, but if you can, watch it. Saving animals is great, but PETA is not all suns and rainbows and flowers. You need to see this.

jontw
Dec 10th, 2007, 09:03 PM
Hi Ymber, what's the case they make against PETA? What are the points they made that struck you most strongly and inspired you to post on this?

Poison Ivy
Dec 10th, 2007, 09:38 PM
In the member area there's a PETA subforum (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=85) with lots of Peta related threads already:)

horselesspaul
Dec 11th, 2007, 12:35 PM
Penn and Teller are utter c0cks.
Did you see the one about vegans?

BlackCats
Dec 11th, 2007, 01:16 PM
Penn and Teller are utter c0cks.
Did you see the one about vegans?

I agree.
I didn't see it but my omni guy friend told me about it and it really annoyed me.

Healthy
Dec 11th, 2007, 06:05 PM
I didn't watch the episode, but I agree Peta isn't all that. I did some volunteer work at the PETA house back in the 1990s.

I don't want to badmouth because I'm hoping that they are getting better all the time, but, yeah, I can tell a few non-vegan stories about them.

EcoTribalVegan
Dec 11th, 2007, 06:50 PM
I've been saying all along that PeTA in no way represents vegan beliefs. I like some of their campaigns, but ultimately their goals stop short of freeing animals and fall into the category of making their lives "better" before they are killed in horrible ways. And they are a company anyway. If true abolition were to occur they would be out of business and they know this. So I'm sure they never want true liberation of animals to occur.

Ymber
Dec 11th, 2007, 08:07 PM
I have not seen their episode on vegans, but I do appreciate their look at PETA. I, of course, hope that they are getting better. But for now, the facts presented in the episode are striking. They have killed over 70% of the animals they have "rescued." Last year, they refused to release their tax documents, among others, which would incriminate them in more deaths. Animals are precious, but at PETA, they kill the majority of the ones they take in, with one woman claiming that sometimes killing them was best for them. Also, another woman uses insulin, as she is diabetic, which was derived from animal testing and contains some animal products. She simply says that her life is too important and she needs it to fight for the animals, even though they are completely against animal testing. I know Penn & Teller are controversial and loud-mouthed, but they do bring up great points in many of their episodes. I don't mean to offend any PETA supporters, and there are plenty of people who work for them and support them that do great things for animals. It just bothers me that so many people have no idea that they have done so many bad things. Thanks for all your feedback!

Fuhzy
Dec 11th, 2007, 09:19 PM
1. They have killed over 70% of the animals they have "rescued." Last year, they refused to release their tax documents, among others, which would incriminate them in more deaths. Animals are precious, but at PETA, they kill the majority of the ones they take in, with one woman claiming that sometimes killing them was best for them.

2. Also, another woman uses insulin, as she is diabetic, which was derived from animal testing and contains some animal products. She simply says that her life is too important and she needs it to fight for the animals, even though they are completely against animal testing.
(I added in some numbers to your quote)

1. This is true, and it is currently a heated debate in the AR movement. There is an extreme overcrowding of cats/dogs, and deciding what to do with them is a difficult choice. PETA's view is that they are better off being put to sleep humanely than having to live on the streets, starving and fighting. Others believe that killing for any reason is wrong. Really it comes down to the person, I can't blame either side.

2. There are many veg*ns, members of PETA, members of the AR movement, etc. that take this viewpoint. While it is a speciesist viewpoint, some believe that human life is greater than animal life. Personally I tend to agree with this idealogy, although there are plenty of people who don't.

So really PETA is just taking a certain stance on issues that some agree with, and others don't. And where you draw your own moral boundaries determines how much you agree with them IMO...

VenomousX
Dec 11th, 2007, 09:42 PM
I've heard that Peta only kills animals because they get the "worst of the worst" I'm not one to usually believe myspace bulletins but this is a section from one I've gotten: (quote) "And as for PeTA euthanizing most of the animals they receive, it is true. Know why? Because they're not a shelter. They get the worst of the worst, mutilated, disfigured, and aggressive animals that don't deserve any more pain from a world that has shown them hatred. My best friend interns at PeTA twice a year, and she sees it first-hand. She states that if these animals weren't euthanized, they would slowly die a painful death, or be taken to shelters where they would be euthanized anyway. PeTA just gets the bad publicity for doing what any compassionate person would do, because they are the most outspoken."

----

Can anyone confirm if that's true or not? I don't support peta for a variety of other reasons, but I don't believe in false accusations either. It's kinda of hard to know what to believe x.x Here's what Peta has to say about the issue.. (But they're the ones being accused so I don't know if I should trust what they say either >.>)


"We at PETA do not regard euthanasia as a solution to overpopulation but rather as a tragic necessity given the present crisis. We know from our experience with helping homeless animals that there is such a thing as a fate worse than death. We have seen animals suffering from injury and disease with no veterinary care, corpses of animals who have been left to starve, and the remains of cats who have been used as bait in dog-fighting rings. Every winter, we see dogs shivering and trying to curl themselves into the tiniest balls to keep warm; every summer, we see them with their tongues dragging, panting in a desperate effort to lower their body temperatures, suffering from excessive heat and insufficient water supplies.

Our Community Animal Project (CAP) rescues homeless animals from environmental dangers, as well as from cruel humans. They crawl through sewers, poke through junkyards, climb trees, and dodge traffic in order to reach animals in danger. During floods and storms, they are out saving lives at all hours. They also rescue animal companions from abusive homes, often encountering resistance from obstructive landlords and angry “guardians” as they try to coax terrified, abandoned, and neglected animals to safety. Our agents travel to the worst neighborhoods to deliver food, doghouses, and bedding to pit bulls who have never known a kind word or touch, dogs who assuming that CAP members, like all the other humans they have known, have come to do them harm greet them with snapping jaws in defense of the tiny patches of muddy earth that they call home.

We push to have animal abusers prosecuted and their animal victims removed from their custody, but sometimes the best we can do is administer the only true solution to the overpopulation crisis: spaying and neutering as many animals as we can so as to prevent future litters of vulnerable, unwanted animals. Sterilization is the best way to lessen animal suffering and we know this because we have seen what happens to the offspring of intact animal companions.

PETA takes in the animals nobody wants feral cat colonies descended from abandoned, unaltered cat companions, now wild and often infected with deadly, ravaging diseases like feline AIDS and leukemia; stray dogs so disfigured by mange that they are almost no longer recognizable as canines; litters of parvo-infected puppies, plagued with diarrhea and vomiting, literally dehydrating to death; and backyard dogs who have known only chains, beatings, and neglect and have gone mad because of it.

Some of the animals we take in are lost companions with loving families who miss them; we are always happy to return such animals to their homes. We have also managed to catch and return some highly elusive animals other agencies had given up on. While some of the healthy, adoptable homeless animals we rescue are fostered in homes (often our own) or taken directly to local shelters to await adoption, the reality is that thousands of animals are euthanized every day across America for lack of good homes. To learn more, visit http://www.HelpingAnimals.com/f-nc.asp and http://www.HelpingAnimals.com/i-nobirth.html.

Even in shelters, healthy and adoptable animals don’t always fare well, since most lack the resources to accommodate all the animals they receive. The “middle-aged” shepherd mix who literally climbs the walls trying to escape the presence of humans doesn’t stand a chance of adoption and will simply mark time cowering in a cage until a peaceful death is finally and mercifully administered. As for very sick or feral animals, PETA believes that it is more humane to euthanize them immediately after evaluation than to subject them to the trauma of further transport and caging before their inevitable death in the shelter.

PETA staff members who are certified to euthanize provide relief to animals who have suffered extensive injuries or illness. To cite a local instance, when a power-line transformer explosion burned a flock of starlings, PETA was the only agency to come to the birds’ aid. It took hours for our staff members to capture the 58 birds whose feathers and eyelids had been burned away and whose bones had been curled by the flames. Despite obvious and excruciating pain, these animals were struggling to fly. If our euthanasia technicians had not been ready to end these starlings’ misery, the injured birds would have suffered horribly for days before finally succumbing to a painful death.

When all an animal has to look forward to is suffering followed by an agonizing death, we believe that euthanasia is the most humane option. We have certified euthanasia technicians on staff and are prepared to come to animals’ aid when nobody else is willing to end their pain.

We also provide free euthanasia services for locals who have sick, injured, or geriatric animals but can’t afford to take them to a veterinarian. One local family turned to us for help for its cat, who had crawled back home after being mauled by a pack of dogs. This family lacked both money for vet care and transportation. We were able to help by giving the cat a peaceful release from pain.

There is hope for abused, neglected, and homeless animals, and it lies in prevention. We must persuade people to spay and neuter their animal companions to stop the cycle of abuse. We must convince governments to accept responsibility instead of turning a blind eye to a problem that results in unimaginable animal suffering (not to mention taxpayer expense). PETA works very hard to inform the public about proper care for animal companions?including the need to spay and neuter?through pamphlets, billboards, letters to the editor, ads, articles, and humane education in schools. We spay and neuter animals of low-income families and the elderly poor for no charge whatsoever?we pay for every shot, surgery, blood and fecal sample, and medication. Our SNIP-mobile (Spay and Neuter Immediately, Please) has performed more than 30,000 [as of 3/2006] spay and neuter surgeries and continues to sterilize between 500 and 600 animals each month. I urge you to learn more about our SNIP clinic by visiting http://www.HelpingAnimals.com/i-nobirth-snip.html.

We try very hard to do our part. But others must do their part as well. Animal lovers everywhere must work to help animals in their communities. When strays show up on our doorsteps, we mustn’t assume that they have homes or that “someone else” will take care of them. We must be that “someone else” and take these homeless animals to shelters or, if we possibly can, see to their medical needs, have them sterilized and vaccinated, and foster them until loving, permanent homes can be found for them.

Likewise, be attentive to your animal neighbors. If an animal who lives nearby has litter after litter of babies, offer to have her spayed. Write to your town councilperson and urge him or her to raise licensing fees for unaltered animals. Alert authorities if you witness an animal being abused or neglected. Boycott pet shops that sell puppies and kittens; adopt strays or shelter animals instead.

PETA can provide information, advice, educational materials, and assistance to anyone who is interested in helping animals. "

Klytemnest
Dec 12th, 2007, 06:26 PM
Ymber;395747]I have not seen their episode on vegans, but I do appreciate their look at PETA. I, of course, hope that they are getting better. But for now, the facts presented in the episode are striking. They have killed over 70% of the animals they have "rescued." Last year, they refused to release their tax documents, among others, which would incriminate them in more deaths. Animals are precious, but at PETA, they kill the majority of the ones they take in, with one woman claiming that sometimes killing them was best for them. Also, another woman uses insulin, as she is diabetic, which was derived from animal testing and contains some animal products. She simply says that her life is too important and she needs it to fight for the animals, even though they are completely against animal testing.

So what would be your solution? That she just die?

I consider myself vegan, but my position is that I am against us deliberately causing UNNECESSARY suffering. In this case, the insulin was necessary for this woman's survival. Yes, it sucks that there are animal products in it, but I think it would suck just as much or more if this woman died. It's a no-win situation for the vegan.



I know Penn & Teller are controversial and loud-mouthed, but they do bring up great points in many of their episodes.

They bring THEIR point of view. It is biased. They present their bias and then, in a half-hour program, aim to justify it with a lot of sarcasm, abuse and ridicule. It can be very entertaining, but let's not act as if this were a deep, thought-provoking show that reveals great Truths. It's "Bullshit."

Oh, and what was their argument that veganism is crazy? Some dude they found, who I guess is famous, going up to a cow, grabbing it and saying, straight to the camera, "This is.... fooooood." That's an argument?

The first time I became a little annoyed with them was when they did their show on recycling. Then they did a show on gun control. And then they did a show on global warming... I have stopped watching the show because it finally dawned on me that they present a very, very slanted position without anything to balance it. It is basically a show for people to see other people get ridiculed and absued. It satisfies our need to see others put down so we can feel better about ourselves.

See, not all atheists agree on everything.

EcoTribalVegan
Dec 12th, 2007, 06:31 PM
They bring THEIR point of view. It is biased. They present their bias and then, in a half-hour program, aim to justify it with a lot of sarcasm, abuse and ridicule. It can be very entertaining, but let's not act as if this were a deep, thought-provoking show that reveals great Truths. It's "Bullshit."

The first time I became a little annoyed with them was when they did their show on recycling. Then they did a show on gun control. And then they did a show on global warming... I have stopped watching the show because it finally dawned on me that they present a very, very slanted position without anything to balance it. It is basically a show for people to see other people get ridiculed and absued. It satisfies our need to see others put down so we can feel better about ourselves.

This is the very reason I stopped watching South Park too. It's like they just make fun of everyone and don't contribute anything productive.

Klytemnest
Dec 12th, 2007, 06:49 PM
This is the very reason I stopped watching South Park too. It's like they just make fun of everyone and don't contribute anything productive.

Right. It's entertainment. In a twisted way, it's our way of going to Colliseum and watching people get torn to shreds. It's fun.

I mean, I liked South Park when they were making fun of the Mormons, but when they went after Eric Roberts and Richard Dawkins, I realized that their presentation of Mormonism is as "fair and balanced" as Fox News!

So, that was that for me. I mean, sarcasm, cynicism and just plain ridicule all play an important part in our social interaction, but there needs to be fairness. Without fairness, it's just a form of propaganda. And having grown up in Bulgaria, having communist propaganda shoved down my throat, I have very little tolerance for it.

missbettie
Dec 12th, 2007, 06:51 PM
honestly there are very few shows that contribute anything productive. South Park is just a form of entertainment, nothing else. Its not meant to teach you anything and its not meant to persuade anyone to change their viewpoints. I agree they just make fun of everything, but honestly thats what sells.

Mahk
Dec 14th, 2007, 03:09 AM
I'm not a PETA supporter on many levels but I thought I'd pass along their latest attack on the Olsen Twins. Watch this video (http://www.peta2.com/Trollsens/video.asp) to see and also check out the "dress up" section.

Bizarre.

edit: I think this a new low for PETA. Imagine if the situation were reversed: Let's say vegan actress Alicia Silverstone gets a threat letter from the Milk industry stating,"Start drinking milk again, like you did for the first 22 years of your life, or we will design a website that advocates boycotting your movies, calls you a trashy, hairy, troll, and has an interactive "dress up" section where people can pretend to snap your brittle, osteoporosis stricken bones by placing their computer cursor over a cartoon caricature of your emaciated, anemic body.

[Note that I personally don't agree with the lack of milk causing osteoporosis part, but this is the view of the milk industry and probably 99% of the average omni population. It was the best analogy I could come up with for the bloody garment "dress up" section of that PETA site I linked to.]

Attacking corporations with their strong arm tactics is one thing, but to go after these 21 year old young women (who have had recent battles with emotional/drug/eating disorder matters) on a personal level is not cool. I'm not an Olsen twins fan, by the way, I'm indifferent to them, but I find PETA's aggressive attack on them to be in poor judgment.

It saddens me to think that 99% of the world thinks PETAism is veganism. There should be a T-shirt that reads "PETA SUX, AND I SAY THAT AS A PROUD VEGAN!" I sometimes think their antics do as much harm to our cause as good.

missbettie
Dec 14th, 2007, 05:56 PM
good point Mahk, not to mention the fact that as much as I love Dita Von Teese, she wear's fur in some of her modeling and she was actually in an ad for peta....kinda strange....

Fuhzy
Dec 15th, 2007, 07:18 AM
I think this a new low for PETA.

Attacking corporations with their strong arm tactics is one thing, but to go after these 21 year old young women (who have had recent battles with emotional/drug/eating disorder matters) on a personal level is not cool. I'm not an Olsen twins fan, by the way, I'm indifferent to them, but I find PETA's aggressive attack on them to be in poor judgment.

It saddens me to think that 99% of the world thinks PETAism is veganism. There should be a T-shirt that reads "PETA SUX, AND I SAY THAT AS A PROUD VEGAN!" I sometimes think their antics do as much harm to our cause as good.

Agreed.

Ymber
Dec 17th, 2007, 12:42 AM
honestly there are very few shows that contribute anything productive. South Park is just a form of entertainment, nothing else. Its not meant to teach you anything and its not meant to persuade anyone to change their viewpoints. I agree they just make fun of everything, but honestly thats what sells.


Penn & Teller's Bullshit is very opinionated, but they say true things. They aren't lying about it. Please don't compare it to South Park. That's just wrong. I love South Park, but Bullshit is completely different. Cartman saying lick my balls you stupid jew is not the same as Penn & Teller investigating PETA.

Ymber
Dec 17th, 2007, 12:45 AM
So what would be your solution? That she just die?

I consider myself vegan, but my position is that I am against us deliberately causing UNNECESSARY suffering. In this case, the insulin was necessary for this woman's survival. Yes, it sucks that there are animal products in it, but I think it would suck just as much or more if this woman died. It's a no-win situation for the vegan.




They bring THEIR point of view. It is biased. They present their bias and then, in a half-hour program, aim to justify it with a lot of sarcasm, abuse and ridicule. It can be very entertaining, but let's not act as if this were a deep, thought-provoking show that reveals great Truths. It's "Bullshit."

Oh, and what was their argument that veganism is crazy? Some dude they found, who I guess is famous, going up to a cow, grabbing it and saying, straight to the camera, "This is.... fooooood." That's an argument?

The first time I became a little annoyed with them was when they did their show on recycling. Then they did a show on gun control. And then they did a show on global warming... I have stopped watching the show because it finally dawned on me that they present a very, very slanted position without anything to balance it. It is basically a show for people to see other people get ridiculed and absued. It satisfies our need to see others put down so we can feel better about ourselves.

See, not all atheists agree on everything.


My point with the insulin was not that she should die. It was that she did not support animal testing at all. But without it, people with diabetes would die. It's going back to the root of her ideals, not saying she should stop using something that already is available that had to do with animal testing. Anyways, I'm not criticizing your response, I just want to let you know that my point was not that she should die, but that she should not have such a strong stance against something that has saved her life.

John
Dec 17th, 2007, 02:50 AM
Penn Jillette is a right-wing (libertarian) windbag.

And no one seems to think about the cows, chickens, fish, lambs, etc. that go into pet feed when we talk about how cruel it is to euthanize unwanted pets.

missbettie
Dec 17th, 2007, 06:34 PM
Penn & Teller's Bullshit is very opinionated, but they say true things. They aren't lying about it. Please don't compare it to South Park. That's just wrong. I love South Park, but Bullshit is completely different. Cartman saying lick my balls you stupid jew is not the same as Penn & Teller investigating PETA.

I wasn't comparing anything to south park i was just making a statement about it because someone before me was making a coment about south park, sorry for taking your precious thread further off topic. :rolleyes:

dreama
Dec 17th, 2007, 08:14 PM
my point was not that she should die, but that she should not have such a strong stance against something that has saved her life.

I totally disagree with this. Medical progress has happened DESPITE animal testing. Not because of. So you can take life saving drugs AND be totally against medical research using animals.

VenomousX
Dec 17th, 2007, 08:46 PM
I agree with dreama (http://veganforum.com/forums/member.php?u=956), you're saying animal testing has saved her life which simply isn't true. If animals did not exist we would find other ways to treat illnesses. The fact is LAW requires all new medicines be tested on animals, so until that changes those of us that need medication are going to APPEAR like hypocrites. Most of us are fighting behind the scenes to abolish animal testing however.

Ymber
Dec 19th, 2007, 04:26 PM
haha good point. I guess it's just hard when we use animal products in so many things to just start over at the beginning. I mean, we can't. We as humans have reversed nature, domesticating animals and making petfood, rather than having them in the wild hunting. And hey, I have 3 cats and a fish and I'm not ashamed of it. It's just scary how we've changed the earth, not to sound like a total hippie. Anyone interested in some interesting stuff who has time and enjoys reading should read "Ishmael" and "The Story of B" by Daniel Quinn (I think that's the name). I read them last semester in a philosophy class (which I hated) but those two books were the best part. They're simple and obvious, but so interesting. They make you think. Tens of thousands of years ago, we were all hunter-gatherers. Now, every time we invent something to make our lives easier, it seems to make it more complicated. The movie "The Gods Must be Crazy" is an old 70s movie but is funny and has a lot of these concepts in it. I'm so long-winded lol sorry, but anyways my point is that we've changed the earth so much, and now there's 7 billion of us here and it's insanity.

Klytemnest
Dec 19th, 2007, 06:28 PM
Penn & Teller's Bullshit is very opinionated, but they say true things. They aren't lying about it.

Hold on. They present a very slanted view. It is not fair or balanced. It is a view that suits their agenda. Yes, they often present fats, empirically verified facts. But they do not present ALL facts. They are entertainers. They are not journalists. Their job is to create a funny show. And so instead of presenting a fair and balanced view, they take the opponents of their agenda and they ridicule them.

They did a show on environmentalists. So they went to an Earth Day rally. They interviewed some young lady who was just clueless and a tree-hugger who thought that trees wept (that's what sap is, don't you know). And so that was the "true things" they said about environmentalists. They neglected to show that there are millions of us who are not quite as air-headed. That's what I mean. It's a slanted view. They are not interested in balance. They may not lie, but they misrepresent.

They did a show on recycling, gun control, and PeTA. Like I said earlier, their argument against PeTA was to get some Country Western cowboy singer grab the head of some hapless animal, look straight into the camera and say "This is fooooood!"

They are very entertaining, but come on, let's not fool ourselves into thinking that they reveal hidden truths to the world. They entertain. Thos eof us who are looking for actual truth will have to work a little harder than just sit in front of the TV and listen to Penn & watch Teller. We'll all have to do our own homework.