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love,lee
Feb 6th, 2008, 04:55 AM
I'm slightly new here- finally decided to give up milk and eggs for lent, followed by other, 'hidden' animal byproducts once I have the hang of the first. Is this the ideal way to go, or should I give it all up cold turkey ? I've been a vegetarian for most of my life, I ate chicken until I was eight, then gave it up. I'm now fifteen, so meat is absolutely no issue to me.

I have had a recurring mental question though. It involves a small scenario that requires a bit of explination so stay with me... I have a friend who owns a small farm, with hens and such running around freely and happily. He asked me a few days ago why I would give up all eggs, when he would gladly sell me some actual freerange eggs, none of that meat industry blasphemy. When I told him that the philosophy of veganism was that animals do not exist for our uses, and to not accept food that comes from them. He asked me "Well... if a monkey made you a sandwich, would you eat it?" I thought that was funny and replied that i would, in fact eat it, if it did not contain any animal products, but it made me think...

How is eating the monkey's sandwich any more ethical than a free-range chicken's egg? If anything it's less ethical- the monkey might want that sandwich for later, while the chicken has no use for its unfertalized egg.

Sorry for my strange question, just wanted some input.

x

Shells
Feb 6th, 2008, 05:24 AM
Did the monkey wash his hands first?

love,lee
Feb 6th, 2008, 05:26 AM
Did the monkey wash his hands first?

oh ! of course ! it was a very clean monkey and he definitely did not spit in your sandwich.

sandra
Feb 6th, 2008, 05:50 AM
If the monkey made me the sandwich because he/she wanted to do something nice for me then I would eat it. If later the monkey was then hungry I would give him/her food to eat.............simple! :)
Just to add that the point here is 'free will'...........the chicken has no control over you taking it's eggs and will continue to lay more eggs to compensate for the ones it has lost.

love,lee
Feb 6th, 2008, 06:11 AM
well the chicken would lay the egg whether I took it or not.:p she has no more control over her menstruation as i do

VenomousX
Feb 6th, 2008, 07:10 AM
Lol interesting question. The point is the monkey is handing you a sandwich and the chicken is not giving you her egg, it's just there and you take it. You took something which wasn't yours, so it's stealing.

Personally I've read about vegans that keep chickens as pets and they mix the unfertilized eggs in with their chicken's feed, providing them with a ton of extra nutrients. I thought it was kind of gross at first but after letting it sink in for a while it's actually a really clever and ethical solution to the problem.

Korn
Feb 6th, 2008, 07:44 AM
I wouldn't mind eating a sandwich made by a monkey (if it was clean), but I would oppose both training a monkey to make sandwiches and any commercial use of monkeys.


well the chicken would lay the egg whether I took it or not. By eating her eggs, she will start to produce more eggs than she otherwise would have done... this is the main dilemma behind the egg production: by removing the eggs, humans, and not hens control how many eggs they shall produce, to the degree than it's considered 'normal' that hens are bleeding due to their abnormal high production of eggs.

Vegans and eggs (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1370)

Here's something I recently read about free range eggs (I'll post the link later):


A growing number of people are looking to "free-range" as an alternative to factory farm eggs. Eggs (and poultry) may be labeled as "free-range" if they have USDA-certified access to the outdoors. No other criteria, such as environmental quality, size of the outside area, number of birds, or space per bird, are included in this term. Typically, free-range hens are debeaked at the hatchery, have only 1 to 2 square feet of floor space per bird, and -- if the hens can go outside -- must compete with many other hens for access to a small exit from the shed, leading to a muddy strip saturated with droppings. Although chickens can live up to 12 years, free-range hens are hauled to slaughter the same as battery-caged hens, after a year or two. Free-range male chicks are trashed at birth, just as they are in factory farms. Although free-range conditions may be an improvement over factory-farm conditions, they are by no means free of cruelty

sandra
Feb 6th, 2008, 08:09 AM
well the chicken would lay the egg whether I took it or not.:p she has no more control over her menstruation as i do

Yes, the more you take the eggs away...........the more the chicken feels the need to lay more to replace those lost, so you are causing unnecessary stress and work for the chicken.

Anyway, why would you want to eat a hen's period? :)

Ruby Rose
Feb 6th, 2008, 10:43 AM
Ask you friend what happens to the 50% of the chicks hatched that are male. There is no 'happy free-range' scenario - it's all about killing, whether it's in a factory farm or not.

horselesspaul
Feb 6th, 2008, 12:15 PM
If it were freely given by a monkey who had not been trained to do it then I would share it with the monkey, possibly offering said monkey a glug or two of my London Pride afterwards. We might then go on to a light banana dessert..

Campbell
Feb 6th, 2008, 01:01 PM
This is without doubt the weirdest question I have ever come across on this forum... I like it!

Of course I would eat it... not the monkey, that is, but the sandwich, yes ;)

MillieAnne
Feb 6th, 2008, 03:25 PM
I love how obscure this question is. :-)

harpy
Feb 6th, 2008, 03:34 PM
I'm slightly new here- finally decided to give up milk and eggs for lent, followed by other, 'hidden' animal byproducts once I have the hang of the first. Is this the ideal way to go, or should I give it all up cold turkey ?

I did it gradually too, but some people do it overnight - I think you're best placed to know what will work for you. It might help your family to accept it if it's a more gradual process, if that's an issue.


He asked me a few days ago why I would give up all eggs, when he would gladly sell me some actual freerange eggs, none of that meat industry blasphemy. When I told him that the philosophy of veganism was that animals do not exist for our uses, and to not accept food that comes from them. He asked me "Well... if a monkey made you a sandwich, would you eat it?"

I think the operative word is "you" in "made YOU a sandwich". If the monkey intended the sandwich for you it would be rude not to eat it :D but of course if it intended it for itself it would be rude to eat it. Eating a hen's eggs is more like eating the sandwich the monkey made for itself, because the hen didn't lay the egg for a human to eat.

absentmindedfan
Feb 6th, 2008, 03:54 PM
Hmm, it depends. Would the sandwich be cut into squares or triangles?

veganlinda
Feb 6th, 2008, 04:12 PM
Would the sandwich be one suitable for a vegan?

harpy
Feb 6th, 2008, 04:15 PM
Hmm, it depends. Would the sandwich be cut into squares or triangles?

:D Shut up and eat your crusts, AMF!

absentmindedfan
Feb 6th, 2008, 04:43 PM
:D Shut up and eat your crusts, AMF!

Already have, hence the curly hair :D

sandra
Feb 6th, 2008, 05:31 PM
I think the operative word is "you" in "made YOU a sandwich". If the monkey intended the sandwich for you it would be rude not to eat it :D but of course if it intended it for itself it would be rude to eat it. Eating a hen's eggs is more like eating the sandwich the monkey made for itself, because the hen didn't lay the egg for a human to eat.


You have put it so perfectly harpy! :)
I've been thinking all day about this question and the way you have answered it was exactly what I was thinking but couldn't put into words! :)

harpy
Feb 6th, 2008, 05:41 PM
Gosh, thanks, Sandra :o :)

I suppose children do get encouraged to think of cows "giving" milk etc and so it's not surprising when adults think about it in that way, even though as we know it's really a question of taking rather than giving. But I can just about imagine a primate deciding to share food with a human, as I think they sometimes do share it with one another.

sandra
Feb 6th, 2008, 05:56 PM
Yes, it would have to be done out of free will, not because the monkey had been trained to do it.
I found myself out shopping for groceries today with hubby, mulling this question over in my mind (as you do)...............at first it seems like a ridiculous question but then when you really think about it, it takes on so many other connotations.
I think in the end it really does come down to free will..............if another being does something for you because they WANT to that is ok..........if they do it because they HAVE to, that is something entirely different.

pavotrouge
Feb 6th, 2008, 06:26 PM
hi love, lee :) welcome to the forum.

I think your friend simply has seen Steven the Vegan on youtube and now thinks he's witty because of that.

I don't see how questions like that- totally unlogical and senseless ones- help anybody.

The correct question, IMHO would be: How the hell would a monkey do that?

What if little cats from space made you a sandwich? Or the flying spaghetti monster?!

- About going vegan, my opinion is: try it cold turkey for two weeks. My veganism started when a friend suggested to try eat only vegan things for one week. I never looked back.

love,lee
Feb 7th, 2008, 12:31 AM
i see what you mean
like... since an animal can not give you his or her permission to have the milk or eggs or meat and bones, we should all assume that she doesn't want us to have it.
so many people take it for granted that an animal cannot speak.

RubyDuby
Feb 7th, 2008, 01:07 AM
If another species came along, who could not understand our intellect, and decided to use us for their benefit, would it be okay as long as they didn't believe they were harming us?

The monkey would have had to been trained (as others said) in order to know what a sandwich was or how to make one.

I know what you mean about questions like this causing u to stop and be speechless. I'm terrible on the spot! Everybody is trying to justify what they believe the right thing to be. The internet is great that we can see all the different reasoning behind different views and decide for ourselves what we believe is right.

Osity
Feb 7th, 2008, 02:11 AM
The monkey GAVE you the sandwich. You TOOK the egg. It's pretty obvious to me. Hope this helps.


www.rethinkhumanity.com (http://www.rethinkhumanity.com/)
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VelvetDragon
Feb 7th, 2008, 03:16 AM
Ha ha ha! This is a great -- and very weird -- question.

So, we've established the monkey is clean, free, and was not trained to do so.

Well, I eat sandwiches made by other, uglier primates, so why not? ;)

Of course, this question is an absolutely arbitrary one and it's not going to happen. :P