Responding to questions and comments from non-vegans

[aubergine]

What do you all think would be the right approach for telling that woman that I am not ashamed of being a vegan, even if it entails being a “demanding customer”?

I'd remind her she won't be so smug when she's diagnosed with coronary heart disease.

I'd also tell her manager why I was going to use another shop in future.

[meggymaggoo]

I'd also tell her manager why I was going to use another shop in future.

Yup, me too.

In fact I'd put it in a letter to the store manager (or owner).

:-)

[Agatha]

I keep having coversations that go a bit like this:
"would you like chocolate/coffee/piece of cake...?"
"no thanks, I don't have dairy"
"is that an allergy"
"no. I'm vegan"
"really? so what can you eat?"
"well... everything... that hasn't been sorced from animals"
"no cheese or milk?"
"nope."
"what about fish?"

WTF?!!!! why the hell would I eat fish? i will never understand the logic to this question but I get asked nearly everytime I start explaining to someone I am vegan. WHY? proof that eating meat rots your brain?

[absentmindedfan]

WHY? proof that eating meat rots your brain?

Yup :D

[jaclyn99]

i love the.... so you dont eat fish? no! is it alive? does it move of its own will, does it have a nervous system, a sense of hierarchy and awareness? yes. then i DONT eat it.

they also happen to be one of my favourite things

funny questions. funny answers.

[forthebirds]

I like to say "I did some research on my own about what goes on to create "meat" and animal products these days and concluded that I can't support those industries. It's amazing what the public doesn't know."

That tends to lead to the question "What don't we know?" And then I'm happy to educate them. ;)

[fiamma]

:D Good one FTB. I'm gonna try that :)

[Orange-powered]

see comment below! something went worng there....

[Orange-powered]

i love the.... so you dont eat fish? no! is it alive? does it move of its own will, does it have a nervous system, a sense of hierarchy and awareness? yes. then i DONT eat it.

yea I just responded about the fish question in another thread, and how maybe it has to do with pescatarians who call themselves vegetarians? but I still dont see why people might think that when you say you dont it ANY animal porducts, it really is stupid.

This is just ranting now but it does get on my nerves how even people who stop eating meat for the sake of cruelty still think fish is ok. I know its being judgemental and some of my friends are pescatarians, but I just don't understand it unless its transitionary, then I don't get it.

[Rogue]

i'm not sure if this has already been said, but i don't reeeaally feel like going through 13 pages of posts...
when people ask me why i am vegan i simply say: "well, i don't believe animals are meant to be used for our own nutrition. Why do you eat meat?" and usually they go all crazy looking and say: "because it tastes good" so i just kind of snob them off saying: "that's selfish of you"
hehe they get pretty shot down and start thinking to themselves haha

[Agatha]

yeah sometimes when people ask why i don't eat meat I ask them why they do and they act like its 'normal' and i have no right to ask them such a ridiculous question! grrrrrr

[Justin]

I used to eat fish, I actually used to eat all animals- like a lot of us, I imagine. What little I know of veganism does sometime make me think we suffer a little from groupspeak and our debates are often quite self-sealing. I may be wrong in my ideas and my worldview is probably flawed, in many respects.

I've also not read through the entire thread but I know a lot of very decent people who eat meat, they have a different understanding to me. I don't think this will invoke Godwin's Law, but Hitler was a vegetarian and it's said that the Buddha's last meal was pork. Morality is not limited to dietary choice.

I think that what I'm doing with veganism is right and in balance with nature and I'd really like others to join me in this. I don't push it, or even raise the subject and I'm not a salesman for veganism. But I do feel I am able to encourage people to at least try the water and I can accomplish this by being patient, listening and seeing that they too have a point of view and gently highlighting the discomforts they may feel with their diet while encouraging what I see as a new way.

I'm sorry if this sounds arrogant or rude, it's not my intention and I haven't read the thread so I probably don't really know what I am talking about. I just feel that we get up on our high horses a bit. When some one asks me why- I think yeah! If I take the time and show them respect, this person may get it.

[fiamma]

I know a lot of very decent people who eat meat

Hi Justin,
I too am very much in favour of trying to understand others' points of view. I live in a world surrounded by people who eat meat and although their actions sadden me I cannot stop caring about them as people. Your remark is thought-provoking, as you seem to be equating their decency with the actions they carry out. I am not denying these people are decent. But you, as a vegan, surely cannot say the same about their actions.

[Justin]

It's not my place to comment on the inherent virtues in the actions of others. I feel that, for me at least, it's best not to judge- like a lot of us, I'm just here trying to get by and I'm neither evil nor good- just overly self focused.

I feel that if I have compassion for all living creatures and I am willing to understand that some of them do eat each other, why am I not able to extend this understanding to humans? It seems unlikely I'll see a vegan world in my lifetime. I want to make things better, for all of us and in this, a little diplomacy and understanding goes a long way.

[fiamma]

It's not a case of judging, it's simply a case of deciding in your own mind how you feel about the actions of others. My boyfriend lives with me and he eats meat, and I certainly do not judge or condemn him. I wish he wouldn't eat meat! but I don't pass sentence. I just live my life the way I see fit. I do feel it's important not to judge, but also to take your own stance and be an advocate for it. And that means telling people "I think eating meat is wrong." It's not the same as saying "I think you are wrong for eating meat." That's my viewpoint anyway. I state my viewpoint, but without condemning the actions of others.
It is true, too, that other living beings eat each other. But they do this out of necessity. We have no need to eat meat. And there is no need for factory farming. That's what makes meat eating so abhorrent in this day and age.

[tilly]

By the way, Hitler Wasn't a vegetarian.

[sugarmouse]

lol!! Tilly is right though,Hitler was not a vegetarian. The widespread 'knowledge' that he was comes from the fact that if you repeat something often enough to the right folk,it somehow becomes 'the truth'.
I have to get along with people who eat meat.I think i tell myself they are misinformed or ignorant,rather than nasty..maybe just to cushion my existence alongside them!.but of course this is maybenot the case with some.

[Orange-powered]

looking back on it my post probably sounds really narrow minded about pescatarians and I'm not actually against them as people or anything as some of my best friends eat fish but no meat.I also do agree that we should try to understand other people's points of view, even if they eat meat etc and most of my friends actually do eat meat. And yes I grew up eating meat and fish too.

I think I was just thinking about it from an ethical perpective with the pescatarians that I know who think eating meat is cruel but eating fish isn't and how I find it difficult to understand. Also I may have just been having a bad day and decided to take it out on the pescatarians which was unfair of me.

[aubergine]

Also I may have just been having a bad day and decided to take it out on the pescatarians which was unfair of me

It's still a diversion from Veganism, and I find vegetarians and pescatarians are usually really rude and defensive because they feel they have made sufficient change to help animals. Animals still die though, and eating fish eggs, dairy etc is still unhealthy.

I wouldn't feel so bad about it if I were you.

[Russ]

Pescatarian is still a step in the right direction. I was pescatarian for the first month before I realised that I couldn't logically maintain the position (like I realised with vegetarianism a few years later). I think maybe pescatarians / vegetarians are more open to ideas of veganism? Certainly more than most omnivores.

[mango]

Veganism is just one aspect of life, albeit a very important one from my point of view, and in a way quite an easy thing to do compared to some other ethical things. It's relatively easy to make rational ethical decisions about how you live. Much more difficult are the things that are not rational, like how we affect other people emotionally. I became vegan in a very short time, and in the ten years since then I have still not managed to get to the stage of development where I always have a positive effect on people in my interactions - just an example.

How - or whether - I talk about veganism depends on how someone asks me about it. If they look shocked and insulted when I say I'm vegan (or that I don't have a job - lord save us!) - you know the look some people give you as if you've just said you want to eat their children (or asked them the time, in London) - then I'll probably never speak to them again. But I love a robust argument, and if someone challenges me in that spirit I am very happy to engage with them, not pulling any punches. On the other hand, if a quiet type of person just doesn't understand and hasn't really thought about it before, I'll be gentle. It's just impossible to relate to people without a certain awareness of moral relativism - anyway, how many vegans do I know with whom I agree about absolutely everything, or probably even anything fundamental? None.

[Mikey]

I have from time to time, been asked *why* i'm vegan; not so long ago, someone asked me that in another sort of 'forum' online.....and my reply is always the same; i answer with 'for health and ethical reasons'. It's the truth, and if they don't want to know, they shouldn't be asking me; i say it in a very innocuous, matter-of-fact manner.....even so, i was 'jumped on' a little while ago when i answered with that, for 'lecturing' everyone present, when i hadn't even *begun* to do any such thing! :( sheesh; then one woman asked me 'how can a man be vegan'.....something i'm usually never asked in person, by anyone who's ever *seen* me.....as an athletic ballet dancer! :rolleyes:

[Russ]

then one woman asked me 'how can a man be vegan'

Wow ... just wow. I don't know how I'd react to that if it happened to me. Why and how is it some people have such a narrow/skewed perception of gender roles and, while we're at it, reality as a whole ..

The other day I was asked, "well, the thing is ... why are animals here, if they're not meant to be eaten? That's why God placed them here, for us to eat."
I kept my answer simple; "I don't believe in God. I'm an atheist. I believe in science."
The antagonist in question continued to argue that I must believe in some kind of purpose in the universe. Whether or not there is a purpose, I don't follow the argument to its conclusion that humanity is therefore the epicentre of all existence and is free to abuse every resource available. I mean, similar arguments have been used to justify slavery, rape, gay-bashing ...

[RachelJune]

I had a discussion with my dad recently re meat/dairy consumption and health. I also pointed him in the direction of the White Lies Report and China Study, which (as he likes to look into things) he actually read. Whilst he is not in any way anti-vegan, he does make the following points in his argument and I'm afraid I am at a loss to respond to some of them. Can anyone suggest how they would tackle this?


I have serious problems with the idea of giving up dairy foods, especially when I have loved them for so long. Even so, your article was unsettling, or would have been had it not been for the Vegan stand of the writer. He did make a serious impact with his information on the Chinese survey and the incicenece of lactose intolerence combined with disease world wise.

Then again he fails to consider why Afro Caribbeans suffer from sickle cell aenemia, or Indians so eaily develop rickets here, or other diseases linked to Vitamin D.

I would for instance have liked to have seen some data on the difference between well off indians and those who cannot afford to chose their diet. At the same time the world study completely omits the Mongolians who live entirely on animal products. If your writer has indeed studied World races for so many years the example of this people can hardly have escaped him.
Then again what about Polynesians who eat lots of fish and fruit, or that Japanese who do not fry food in fat and eat raw fish?

Nor does he discuss the possible toxicity to the human body of over indulging in certain vegetables eg, bread.

In short, he is studying abuse of one type of food and deliberatly neglecting to do a comparative study on the food he recommends. Had he done so, this would have been a powerful document indeed.

There is no doubt that the use of animal product is being abused and that the industry engages in some seriously immoral acts to provide cheaper or more desirable food.

What is badly needed is an open handed study of the health of some who combine adequate vegetable diet with occasional meat in diet. As often happens, the good doctor misrepresents the progress of human history prior to agriculture. Our ancestors are dnetally and organically equipped as we are (with incisors etc), as Chimpanzees, and these last will take meat at
every opportunity, even engaging in cannibalism. There is no way of establishing that prehistoric humans were vegitarian and indeed the creation of weapons early on suggests a culture of hunting was more normal, indeed necessary to human survival. The hunt/kill instinct remains strong in humans and can only be supressed by intense cultural aversion indoctrination.

There is no argument that Vegans remain healthier, but since this is not the natural way of eating they do and have to keep a firm eye on diet.

Be sure on one thing though. I do believe too much milk and dairy product is eaten in Europe, BUT I also think far, far too much sugar is consumed. and that is a vegetable, if you see what I mean.

[absentmindedfan]

There is no argument that Vegans remain healthier, but since this is not the natural way of eating they do and have to keep a firm eye on diet.



This is because we cannot browse and eat the vast variety of foods that our ancestors would have. Yes, meat is high in calories and as such for an animal concerned with survival is desirable, ehnce chimps etc eating it as often as they can. However the only health problems vegans who eat a varied low-fat healthy diet (e.g very similar to that of our hunter/gatherer ancestors minus the meat) can encounter are B12 deficiency and Vit D issues. Vitamin D is an issue as we now live a lot further North than our (initially African-dwelling) ancestors and as such don't get enough sun. B12 is an issue because our world is so 'sterilised'.

Modern times have lead to the potential health problems and modern times can solve them; going out in the sun for 15 mins a day or wating fortified food or SAD lamps for VitD issues, and fortified foods/supplements for B12.

We cannot prove what 'the natural way of eating' actually is; food rots down and as such archaology has little to tell us. We simply don't know how much/how little meat our ancestors ate but the scientific studies show me that a healthy vegan diet far exceeds even a meat/dairy moderation diet so that's what I'm sticking to.

Perhaps moderation is OK, but seeing as Colin Campbell shows that just one dose of animal protein actually switches cancerous cells into growth, it doesn't sit easy with me.

In terms of the health and environmental impact of meat/dairy consumption, consider this.

A tennis court is on fire. Do you a) throw a small amount of petrol on it once a week and see what happens or b) throw water over it and stop the flames? Moderation is the former, complete removal the latter.