Responding to questions and comments from non-vegans

[Cherii]

Normally is someone says 'But protein comes from meat' or 'But it tastes good' I'd reply with 'Oh, terribly sorry, but I think you've confused me with someone who gives a damn'

Ha ha. (:

[RubyDuby]

protein only comes from meat? wow, i've really been misinformed... :rolleyes:

everything i eat tastes good!

[leedsveg]

To answer the thread question: it depends on exactly what I'm being asked and who is asking it.

leedsveg

[Mahk]

My response to the thread question:

"Because animal cruelty is wrong." Keep it short and simple. This then makes the meat-eating questioner have to jump through many mental hoops trying to prove me wrong which will all ultimately fail.

"But killing them isn't cruel! They want to die!"
[Yeah right. Only humans have a survival instinct. Puh-leez]

"It's not cruel if it is done quickly and without pain."
[Then may I kill you similarly when you turn your head? ;)]

"But other animals do it."
[Other animals also rape, murder, steal, and eat their own young. Should we do those too?]

"But we have to kill animals to make food to eat in order to survive"
[What am I, a ghost?]

"We need animal protein to make muscle."
[World class athlete and "Olympian of the century" Carl Lewis both trained for and participated as a vegan through several Olympics winning a dozen or so gold medals.]

[dryxi]

As far as plants feeling pain- here's a reply I got from "The Vegetarian Way" written by the vegan RD Virginia Messina:

"I don't know if plants feel pain or not, but I do know I need to eat plants to survive, but I don't need to eat animals."

[Mahk]

Plants have been studied for centuries and carefully analyzed. Not a single one has been found that possesses either a necessary brain to process the concept and thought processes known as pain (or love, hate, anger, feelings, or any other type of thought) nor a nervous system to conduct such information from one part of the plant to "a brain". There are a number of scientists that disagree and think that plants do feel pain, however they are the idiot scientists that also believe in astrology, the power of magic crystal pendants, and the Loch Ness monster. Rocks and plants do react, without any thought, to external stimuli but so does a half cup of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) if you pour a half cup of vinegar on it. The baking soda violently protests that it is being manipulated! Try it.

[fiamma]

Note that animals also eat plants.... ;)

[Mahk]

^And some plants eat animals.;) [venus flytrap being a well known one]

[elizabethlouise]

I don't know if this has been asked already or on a different thread, but understand that I can't read everything, haha.

I had my birthday party two days ago on Saturday. I made a vegan shepherd's pie and a vegan cake, and people ate both and loved them, but then people were asking me about being vegan. I gave my normal answer of "I don't support killing or exploiting animals." Then, one of my friends said "Sorry, I know the animal was killed but it's tasty murder." She's a compassionate person, yet she has no compassion for the animals, and that doesn't make sense to me. And she just ate two vegan dishes and told me they were good, so what does the taste have do with it?

Okay, sorry, I was just kind of ranting there. My real question is what do you do when people apologize for eating meat? They know it's bad/wrong or else they wouldn't feel the need to apologize for it. I just don't get how someone can know what's going on and not care, especially when not eating meat is so easy. Just don't buy it.

I read on one site that when someone apologized to a vegan about eating a chicken sandwich, the girl told them, "Don't apologize to me, apologize to the chickens." What other ways are there?

[Ms_Derious]

Okay, sorry, I was just kind of ranting there. My real question is what do you do when people apologize for eating meat? They know it's bad/wrong or else they wouldn't feel the need to apologize for it. I just don't get how someone can know what's going on and not care, especially when not eating meat is so easy. Just don't buy it.

I read on one site that when someone apologized to a vegan about eating a chicken sandwich, the girl told them, "Don't apologize to me, apologize to the chickens." What other ways are there?

Well, I don't think they are apologising because they think its wrong to do, but for any offence it might cause you.

My stock response to this is 'Don't apologise, I know people eat meat/dairy, However, I choose not to. I don't want to ruin both our lunches talking about this now, but I would be happy to talk about it later if you want'

I know enough about why I made this choice to hold up a breif discussion, and if people want detailed information about veganism, I send them off to the internet, where all their questions can be answered. I don't feel I need to memorise facts and figures relating to animal abuse and mortality, my brain is better reserved for other things.

[kriz]

My response to the thread question:

"Because animal cruelty is wrong." Keep it short and simple. This then makes the meat-eating questioner have to jump through many mental hoops trying to prove me wrong which will all ultimately fail.



Also, "I FEEL it's wrong" can prevent further arguing. How can anyone justifiably attack your feelings. The environmental, health, and weight-loss arguments can get you stuck for hours, and it usually only makes you frustrated instead of enlighten the the other side. Number tossing and statistics rarely makes anyone go vegan, anyway. The emotional aspect does however.

[kriz]

Note that animals also eat plants.... ;)

An an omni is a double whammy then eating both veggies AND plants.:rolleyes: Even a better reason to go vegan if you are overly concerned about plant suffering.

[Mahk]

Also, "I FEEL it's wrong" can prevent further arguing. How can anyone justifiably attack your feelings.

I've never met anyone who claims "Animal cruelty is right" so I don't think the "I feel" part is necessary. It is a nearly universally accepted fact that animal cruelty is wrong, the only slight uphill battle is convincing your opponent that "killing them" is an example.

Them: "But what if it is really, really quick, Mahk?"
Mahk: [picks up heavy club like object] "Good point. Turn around for a second."

:) just kidding!

[kriz]

it is a nearly universally accepted fact that animal cruelty is wrong, the only slight uphill battle is convincing your opponent that "killing them" is an example.

Them: "but what if it is really, really quick, mahk?"
mahk: [picks up heavy club like object] "good point. Turn around for a second."

:) just kidding!

lol!!!

[hanseidavid]

I hate the prevalent attitude amongst vegans that anyone who doesn't agree with them is 'stupid' or 'wrong'. Sure, I have strong beliefs about veganism (and other things) but I don't get worked up every time someone asks me about them or makes a joke. Even as a vegan, asking other vegans about their motivations often puts them on the defensive and they come out with counter-productive nonsense like "why should I not be?". I understand that you might not always have time to explain your motivations to people but I don't see the point in being aggressive/passive-aggressive/over-dramatic about it.
Warming people to veganism should be an underlying result of talking about your motivations. Getting touchy about it will not do that and is, thus, worse than doing nothing.
Personally, if asked about why I am vegan I give a brief list of the main reasons why I chose this lifestyle. If someone jokes with me (as most of it is - not 'harrassing' or 'bullying') then I either ignore it, brush it off or, more likely, joke back. I've never had anyone make a genuine attempt to convince me to change my lifestyle, although people have presented plenty of counter-arguments both serious and non-serious. I don't see any problem in having a humorous debate about veganism (although I'm sure some losers will claim that this is trivialising the issue).

[sandra]

Lately, I'm seeing that your approach is the best way to go HansieDavid!

[squigaletta]

wow hansie, i wish i could have articulated myself liek that. I can't so I will settle for 'ditto'

[leedsveg]

It is a nearly universally accepted fact that animal cruelty is wrong, the only slight uphill battle is convincing your opponent that "killing them" is an example.


I don't want to disagree with you Mahk but my personal experience is that most people are only bothered about animal cruelty when certain animals are involved eg companion animals, circus animals, whales, dolphins etc. When it comes to 'animals for food', people either know about the cruelty and ignore it, or just plain don't want to know. Millions, probably billions of animals are mistreated (and killed) throughout the world every day so where are all these people who think that animal cruelty is wrong? When asked, people may say that cruelty is wrong, but when it comes to the crunch, people unfortunately 'vote' with their stomachs.:(

leedsveg

[Prawnil]

I don't see the point in being aggressive/passive-aggressive/over-dramatic about it.
I'm sure some losers will claim that this is trivialising the issueDoes not compute.

[hanseidavid]

haha!

[leedsveg]

I hate the prevalent attitude amongst vegans that anyone who doesn't agree with them is 'stupid' or 'wrong'.

For me, veganism is an ethical system based on compassion, in which both animals and people matter. Others may not agree saying that I am wrong and, for instance, that animals don't matter. In that instance, I would say that I don't agree with them and they are wrong. It's nothing that I can prove, it's just my belief. We can't both be right.:confused:

leedsveg

[hanseidavid]

I definitely didn't mean to suggest that I don't disagree with people who have opposing beliefs and I am happy to debate it with them. I was more adressing a lot of the posts I saw reading through this thread saying "people are so ignorant/stupid" etc. I think there is a difference between thinking someone is wrong and dismissing their beliefs because you don't agree with them - which I think a lot of vegans tend to do.

[Mahk]

I don't want to disagree with you Mahk but my personal experience is that most people are only bothered about animal cruelty when certain animals are involved eg companion animals, circus animals, whales, dolphins etc. When it comes to 'animals for food', people either know about the cruelty and ignore it, or just plain don't want to know.

I suspect you are over thinking it and applying your veganic wisdom and perspective to the question which you shouldn't, lv, in trying to think how they think.

Ask the next run of the mill omni you encounter, one who doesn't know you yourself are a vegan (and where this is leading): "Do you oppose animal cruelty?" I assure you they will say "Yes, I oppose it." and there will be no "except of course for cows, pigs, chicken and fish which I eat" clause unless you bring it up. [This is analogous to asking, "Do you oppose murder?" The universal reply will be "Yes, I oppose murder" even though they probably do have exceptions to that such as self defense against attacking Nazis/ terrorists.

Then, as an immediate follow up, ask them, "Including animal cruelty against your neighbor's cats, dogs, horses and cows?" If I'm correct their response will be "Yes, of course" if you are correct they will say, "Well not cows, killing them for food is an acceptable form of cruelty like killing attacking Nazis is."

From how I see it, in a nut shell, people aren't apt to say, "Yes, I commit acts of cruelty everyday and feel no shame about it" and will instead rationalize something that you and I know full well is cruelty as not being so; they will instead deny it being cruelty based on some lame argument. IMO.

[Shrapnel]

Well, something that annoys me is when omni friends say try to be accepting and play moral high ground and say they don't mind me eating plants, but just ask not to be bothered or judged for eating meat. The last time was by someone who is otherwise a genuinely open minded and caring person, but she just didn't get veganism. The problem is that she saw her meat eating as simply a choice of what to eat, when it's more than that. It's participating in violence. It would be akin to a rapist saying, you can have sex with whoever you want to, and I all I ask is you don't judge me for who I choose to have sex with. The whole thing of judging meat eating is that meat eating is not a choice that is without consequences, and omnis often don't acknowledge it (to avoid the whole guilt factor).

[leedsveg]

I suspect you are over thinking it and applying your veganic wisdom and perspective to the question which you shouldn't, lv, in trying to think how they think.


Hi Mahk

I think we are talking about the difference between animal cruelty ie the actual cruelty that goes on in the real world and 'animal cruelty' ie the cruelty admitted to by omnis. We, as vegans, see the difference. Omnis don't [want to].

leedsveg:)