Responding to questions and comments from non-vegans

[Mahk]

LV, it is your contention that omnis will admit to cruelty. My contention is that they will not, they will rationalize the things they do as being acceptable but they in no way will label their practices as "cruelty".


the cruelty admitted to by omnis

There's no such thing (in their book). IMO.

"Omni, do you commit animal cruelty or hire others to do it for you?"

There's absolutely no way you will get a "Yes I do." response, I assure you. Try it.

[hanseidavid]

Well, something that annoys me is when omni friends say try to be accepting and play moral high ground and say they don't mind me eating plants, but just ask not to be bothered or judged for eating meat. The last time was by someone who is otherwise a genuinely open minded and caring person, but she just didn't get veganism. The problem is that she saw her meat eating as simply a choice of what to eat, when it's more than that. It's participating in violence. It would be akin to a rapist saying, you can have sex with whoever you want to, and I all I ask is you don't judge me for who I choose to have sex with. The whole thing of judging meat eating is that meat eating is not a choice that is without consequences, and omnis often don't acknowledge it (to avoid the whole guilt factor).

Do you harass your omni friends about eating meat?

[Shrapnel]

Do you harass your omni friends about eating meat?

Not actively, but I'm not comfortable around meat or people eating meat, and I do state my views when asked about them (though I try to put it as gently as possible), and that in itself can be taken as a challenge. If I believe that eating meat is wrong (and I do, because it contributes to cruelty), then it follows that people who eat meat are doing something wrong in my eyes, and that can bother them.

[sandra]

I find that people who eat meat are always on the 'defensive', I never 'harass' them, they seem to feel harrassed just by being in the presence of a vegan.
I think that in itself is very telling! ;)

[hanseidavid]

Have any of your friends ever turned veg/vegan because of you?

(not only addressed toshrapnel - it would be interesting to hear about this)

A few girls have turned vegetarian 'because of me' but I'm not sure how much was because of my arguments and how much was wanting to impress me. I know that one still is vegetarian though.
My current girlfriend was vegan for a while with me but she has went back to being vegetarian, which sucks.

I just made a topic about dating non-vegans here: http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=597491#post597491 which couold end up pretty interesting, I think!

[sandra]

My son and daughter became vegan after me. My sister and her son became vegetarian and another sister and her husband eat a more vegetarian diet too. Also my husband is vegetarian.........he's really 99% vegan (if there's such a thing) because of me! :)


p.s. I think we already have a thread about dating non-vegans! :)

[hanseidavid]

That's really great!

[sandra]

:)

[Zorillo]

I guess I turned my therapist vegan and one person was on about being vegetarian and another was trying being vegan

[Zorillo]

I find that people who eat meat are always on the 'defensive', I never 'harass' them, they seem to feel harrassed just by being in the presence of a vegan.
I think that in itself is very telling! ;)

If you harass them then they might think "For God's sake" and be more bugged by you so less easily influenced, but if you are nice and smile they may feel more uncomfortable and guilty.

[Zero]

I usually just respond like this:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/K-WuAVFhsWM&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/K-WuAVFhsWM&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

:D

[sandra]

If you harass them then they might think "For God's sake" and be more bugged by you so less easily influenced, but if you are nice and smile they may feel more uncomfortable and guilty.


I agree! :)

p.s. I can't see your video clip Zero! :(

There's a lot of video clips posted on the forum that I can't seem to be able to see........there's just a square with a little 'x' in the corner! :confused:

[leedsveg]

LV, it is your contention that omnis will admit to cruelty. My contention is that they will not, they will rationalize the things they do as being acceptable but they in no way will label their practices as "cruelty".
There's no such thing (in their book). IMO.

"Omni, do you commit animal cruelty or hire others to do it for you?"

There's absolutely no way you will get a "Yes I do." response, I assure you. Try it.

Omnis may make some vague statements about animal cruelty but at the end of the day, I suspect the vast majority really don't give a toss despite what you said ie "It is a nearly universally accepted fact that animal cruelty is wrong". That's why the cruelty continues.

leedsveg

[fiamma]

The other day I got "Vegetarianism? That's just stupid."

I do voluntary work with this guy - if the subject comes up again I'm just gonna say that if we're to get on we just don't talk about food :rolleyes:

[BlackCats]

The other day I got "Vegetarianism? That's just stupid."

Well he convinced me, that's the best argument I have ever heard.:p

[Buddha Belly]

I had a good discussion with someone at work the other night. He did respect the idea of veganism but could not accept that animal lifes could be seen as important than human lifes.
He was able to listen to my arguments and not get too irate and we both accepted we would not convert the other as yet and to carry on with work.

I try to respond genuine interest, with honest and non-offensive answers. I can not be arsed to respond to stupid questions as it is a waste of my time and demeans me to get involved.
I hate holier than though vegans who try to make most people feel small or evil for eating meat, that is one guarenteed way to get someone to not listen to any rational points.

[puca]

I won't discuss veganism whilst eating. I know where to pick my battles usually... I think more people than would admit, start from a defensive position as they already feel guilt for consuming animals.

Hence attack is a poor way to go.

I never really get nasty with people, I cannot stand aggressive vegan campaigners, aggressive anything. It just gives everyone else a bad name and undermines a cause. It frightens people and fear is a very poor education tool. People should do things from love, not fear. Veganism is a lifestyle, not a religion, in my view at least.

People who do ask stupid questions, I turn it around and tease them playfully. Make a bit of a joke, be laid back about it.

More recently I have chosen more carefully who I associate with anyway. Some people will not accept and leave others alone for some lifestyle aspects and energy is better invested having fun.


ETA: But I cam empathise on a level why some people get aggressive. Empathise, not excuse. At the end of the day, a lot of it comes from the pain we feel, seeing our animal friends suffer. Maybe some people too, get very defensive from the way they were treated in the past.

[LaceytheCrazy]

^^Agreed, it can get very frustrating, especially when one is usually surrounded by people with differing viewpoints. I find myself, (working at a VERY vegan-unfriendly bakery cafe), confronted almost daily about my eating habits. Not even neccessarily by my coworkers, which doesnt bother me, it's the customers that can be problematic. They often ask for my opinion on what to order, and of course I ALWAYS suggest the one item on the menu capable of being vegan (I take the cheese off) because its the only one I've eaten!! (And its yummy.)

My point is that immediatly after I give my opinion the other girl behind the counter often feels the need to tell the customers that Im biased cause I'm vegan, and I tend to get barraged by the usual "What?? YOU dont eat MEAT???? type responses. V. frustrating. The only thing that keeps me from dishing out snippy replies is knowing that to do so would be detrimental to the vegan movement. And, um, my boss would get mad at me.

[DavidT]

Have you tried saying (in response to a customer asking for a recommendation), "Do you eat meat?"

If they query your question, a devilish thing to say would be something like, "Well, I don't, so I'm biased!"

If they say simply say yes, then, "Well, my friend here recommends..." :D

[LaceytheCrazy]

Ha! That is devilish, indeed!! I've taken to just overlooking the whole "I recommend..." thing altogether and just gritting my teeth and saying "Well, the following sandwiches are our most popular..." It sucks to recommend food chock full of meat and cheese to people, but if that's what they're looking for...

[DavidT]

Very diplomatic! Tough, though. Working in a printers, I deal with stuff every day that I don't fundamentally go along with: election material grates on me; things for gun clubs and hunts; anything religious. I'm currently typesetting a form for dairy inspectors, groan.

Overall, it's hypocritical of me to do this stuff, in much the same way as you, LtC, working in a place serving meat. We're hog-tied (!) by our desperate need to fund our vegan lifestyles. 8))

The rest of the staff know how I feel about objectionable (to me) material but I still detest having to do it. What to do?

[Ms_Derious]

I have recently moved towards a slightly more strong position on the whole advocacy and microactivism thing. I often wear a little 'Vegan' belt buckle, and go out of my way to point out if a menu has a lot of vegan things, or is missing them. I also talk to people in coffee shops, supermarkets etc about my choice, what it means, how it works and what I have to do for it.

As long as you go in with an angle of 'Hey, here's an interesting thing' rather than 'You are a bad person for eating meat/dairy, and here is why' most people take it fairly well, and the people who are aggressive/antagonistic about it, well, really there weren't going to go vegan were they?

I find its good to start off with an brief explanation that your choice of diet is inarguably better for the environment, that you can not morally justify being involved in the dairy/meat industry and add if you like that you feel the diet is as healthy, if not more healthy than an omni one.

People often argue with the last point... and quite often the one about cruelty... the whole 'happy meat' crud. The first bit though, you really can't try to argue that its more efficient to grow crops to feed to animals which you then eat... well, not without resorting to very poor reason!


Have any of your friends ever turned veg/vegan because of you?


My husband turned vegetarian about 3-4 months after we started dating. I never made it an issue that I was veggie at the time. He came to the conclusion he wanted to be a veggie after trying to explain to a co-worker what my reasons were.

He is almost 100% vegan now, also because he's listened to my gentle advocacy and seen that it's not really that hard.

Other than that, It think I had a big hand in my Mum giving up red meat and chicken. I hope one day she'll give up this silly idea she has that she needs fish for the Omega oils.

[pilgrim]

I'm fortunate enough to work at a place that is very understanding and accepting of the vegan lifestyle, the Public Library. A good number of my coworkers are either vegan or vegetarian, and even most of those who aren't are very understanding and educated on the topic. If ever anyone brings food in to be shared they are quick to ask whether coworkers are vegan or vegetarian, and then try their best to accomodate. In fact, most people don't even have to ask me, they just assume that I am vegan (I suppose we vegans are easy to spot).

The only real conflict I've ever had regarding my veganism at work was when one of my bosses asked me to kill a centipede. When I refused and she asked why I said, "Because I don't believe in killing things." She then responded with, "But you're a boy!" She then killed the bug and purposely threw it away in the garbage can closest to me. Needless to say I was offended for a variety of reasons (her intolerance of my veganism and assumption that it lessened my masculinity, and of course the fact that she indeed killed the centipede). But perhaps the thing that offended me most was that I don't believe she had any idea that she had offended me at all.

Other than that though, the Public Library is very tolerant and understanding of the vegan lifestyle. I would definitely recommend it to any vegans who are tired of feeling harassed in the work place, or who simply want to live out their ideals more fully.

[Festered]

Pilgrim that would have made me cry :(

[DavidT]

pilgrim: I've always found public libraries (and the staff) in both England and Ireland way more tolerant of diverse viewpoints than many other institutions. Why would that be?