Responding to questions and comments from non-vegans

[adam antichrist]

Yeah well I don't blame you tails. I had a similar problem last year on a university forum. Bloody biotech students!!!

[veganful]

I must say that this is one of the best vegan or forums I have come to. I have read many in my time and this is the best one by far. But I guess there's still time for some one to get on my bad side. Just kidding every one.

Happy veggie hunting,
Ileana

[kriz]

just to let you know I have logged of from that forum, sick of being attacked !!

Hope you left them with a few links to chew on, tails.
:eek: And you never know who else is observing and may catch on to it! :)

[tails4wagging]

Well I have just told them that before I log off, that I have never met so much vitriolic attacks on someone before and that as an AR campaigner and vegan I thought that these were the most compassionate lot who would go an extra mile to safe an animal without falling out with each other.
Also that they spat out so much venom to a lady (who I defended) who was trying her best to save dogs lives.

[Shisha Fiend]

As for his phobia of supplements, it's ridiculous. For example, it's recommended that every menstruating woman take iron tablets, whether vegan or not. It's not necessarily a sign of ill health or poor diet.

I meant to add: under his logic, women obviously aren't designed to menstruate, because otherwise it wouldn't drain them of iron. :rolleyes: By menstruating they are obviously denying their biological design.

[veganful]

I think you are brave for standing up to them like that. I once went on a vegan forum and said a couple of things that a couple of people didn't agree with. I know what its like to be at the end of that venom so awsome that you stood up for that woman.
I don't think besides what you've done and said, that there's more that can be said or done. They have their minds made up.

[Billy]

Back to the OP: Tails, I totally agree with you with regards to "meat" etc, but.... Being on both vegan and non-vegan forums (one rescue site that I won't mention here), I know that a great deal depends on how you say things. People on rescue/animal welfare (as opposed to 'rights') sites, still live in a world where it is perfectly acceptable to eat other animals. The idea of talking about eating animals - leave alone buying dead animals for their beloved pets to eat, which they see as a completely natural thing - being offensive is totally alien to them. And I think that if you, as a vegan and AR campaigner, want to frequent these forums you have to keep that in mind. There is absolutely no point in going off on one about 'murdering animals', because they won't see where you're coming from. All that happens is that they feel offended in turn, and voila, the slanging match has started.
I've posted several times on mentioned site that I give my dogs a home cooked, vegan diet, something that has even been questioned on this site! The first time I got responses with funny smilies, and PM's from 'concerned' dog owners, who advised me this that and the other, without which my dogs would surely die.
I've kept cool and very polite, not getting into a "you're the one to talk, look at the corpses YOU are feeding your dogs!" type of discussion. It just doesn't lead nowhere! Now, a few times and explanations later, when people post questions about homecooked or vegetarian dog food, there regularly is a reply that says "ask Billy, she cooks for her dogs", and I've had several enquiries from people about how to go about it (to which I always reply that I am by no means qualified to give any dietary or other advice about dogs). Some of the people on the forum have also met my dogs and have been able to see that they are healthy and happy.
Effective communication is an art in itself, and one that I've not mastered by any stretch of the imagination. I just wish though, that activists for whatever good cause would give a thought to how their message is going to be received, rather than stopping at what they want to shout out. What do you want to achieve with your message and how are you gonna go about it? People are very unlikely to listen and consider your argument if they feel insulted, patronised, or met in an aggressive way. They are also unlikely to listen to someone who is terribly longwinded and with that I've just shot myself in the foot once again - 'short but sweet' isn't my strongest point!
So I'll shut it now, see ya!

[veganful]

WOW,

Well said. That's what I wanted to say by "the most you can do is tell them your side". I myself have been known to get exasperated and just give up on some one badgering me bout my lifestyle choice. My friends don't call me stubborn for nothing. They all love me but they know that I don't back down easily. :-D

Ileana

[Geoff]

Out of pure interest, what do you guys think of the F*ck for Forest (http://www.fuckforforest.com/) campaing? *WARNING*Adult content and nudity*WARNING*

I suspect that it's just another porn site. They say that all profits go to support endangered nature but don't give any detail.
I can visualise a couple of greasy porn kings saying: "Hey, let's scew the greenies" :)

[tails4wagging]

Billy, I had to defend myself only because some member came on graphic about picking up either lamb, beef or pork from a local butcher and she explains that it is 'chop' and its mine and the meat is still warm.

I asked her not to be so graphic as it upsets non meat eaters.

Well that started it, I got so attacked with such vitriolic words it was unbelieveable!!!.

I mentioned that folks should log onto such websites as VIVA, peta and compassion in world farming and see for themselves.
Well the next thing was this particular websmaster said anyone mentioning peta again would be banned as it is a terrorist organisation!!!! :confused:

How can I ignore that!!??. So I defended them and ar.

I have now logged off as I said but my friend has logged on and continuing the debate!!

[Geoff]

Out of pure interest, what do you guys think of the F*ck for Forest (http://www.fuckforforest.com/) campaing?

BTW - This site is based in Norway/Sweden and I'm wondering if it could be Korn's way of financing the Vegan Forum! :)

[puffin]

Billy, I had to defend myself only because some member came on graphic about picking up either lamb, beef or pork from a local butcher and she explains that it is 'chop' and its mine and the meat is still warm.

My husband told me yesterday that a driver that comes into his work said "I want to get a house with some land so i can breed my own sheep to eat. They are easy to kill, all you have to do is hit them hard enough on the head then they are dead. I can get it in the oven before it goes cold" Sounds like a lovely bloke :mad:

[kriz]

Next thing he'll hit his wife in the head! :mad: We all know that people who commit violence against animals could easily "cross over" and do the same to humans. :eek:

[kriz]

BTW - This site is based in Norway/Sweden and I'm wondering if it could be Korn's way of financing the Vegan Forum! :)
:D :D :D

[Billy]

My husband told me yesterday that a driver that comes into his work said "I want to get a house with some land so i can breed my own sheep to eat. They are easy to kill, all you have to do is hit them hard enough on the head then they are dead. I can get it in the oven before it goes cold" Sounds like a lovely bloke :mad:

Not much difference between humans and sheep then! Wouldn't want to encourage him to go round London or NYC with a mallet tho. You never know if he doesn't take it up seriously! :confused:

Tails: talk like that grosses me out too, but that's why I don't reply to such threads but instead start my own about how much Kiera loves carrots! Rather than mouthing off to people who I know will never be convinced of my beliefs, I talk to the other people about the positive effects of veganism etc. The effect so far is at least that some people on this dog site know about veganism, about giving dogs a vegan and homecooked diet, and that I can rationalise and - kind of - know what I'm talking about. I'm not saying that I've got it all right, I'm just saying what I've observed. And if this web master doesn't want PETA mentioned on their site, well that is their right I guess, just like talking about using animal products isn't appreciated on this site. I'm not saying it's right (about the PETA stuff), but that is 'netiquette' for ya.

[tails4wagging]

I did start a thread there saying there was over 250,000 vegans in the Uk and I thought that was impressive.

Reply from one guy said I can be a vegan as long as I can have fillet steak with it!!.

No you cant win thats why I logged off!!

[greenworlds]

[geobua quote]We also must take into account that one could not pick and choose fuits and vegetables from around the globe back when we evolved this way. We didn't cultivate soy. We couldn't get pumpkin seeds for protein. We couldn't down handfulls of flax. We had what was around us, which was admittedly sparse in winters, and we had animals. We got our Omega-3 fatty acids from elk and deer that grazed, not from some wünder-plant that popped up through the snow and sprouted opaque pills.[geobua quote]

He said it! So it is understandable that some people had to resort to hunting animals to survive as they were nowhere near the worth of plant type foods as most of us are these days. Why can he move to the present times and look around him ..we have moved on since then.

[bluegirl]

When I get the 'eating meat is natural' line, I ussually just ask people "So you go out and hunt with your 'canines' and 'claws'? Or I say, 'How 'natural' is it to raise more meat than we need, keep animals in tiny cages, and kill them off when they are too young to reproduce?'

[DoveInGreyClothing]

Agreed bluegirl. Factory farming is the most evil and unnatural system. Humans ARE natural omnivores, but we can- and this is the point- survive fine without meat. So therefore to kill id unnecessary, and cruel.
Aloso we are not natural predators of most domestic animals, most indigenous communities,ie aborigines (sp?) eat insects!

[Seaside]

Posted by DoveInGreyClothing:

Aloso we are not natural predators of most domestic animals, most indigenous communities,ie aborigines (sp?) eat insects!

Exactly, DoveInGreyClothing! When people claim humans are omnivorous rather than herbivorous or fruitarian, I say "Yeah, we are definitely suited to catching and eating slugs, leeches, grubs, earthworms, maggots, and anything else that can't run faster than we can! :eek:

[greenworlds]

Posted by DoveInGreyClothing:


[Quote Seaside] Exactly, DoveInGreyClothing! When people claim humans are omnivorous rather than herbivorous or fruitarian, I say "Yeah, we are definitely suited to catching and eating slugs, leeches, grubs, earthworms, maggots, and anything else that can't run faster than we can! :eek:

[Quote greenworlds] I say to ppl who say we are omnivores..we are but we don't have to be, we are only because we choose to be, like a canibal is a canibal, but he are she doesn't have to be! if a human is eating a herbivorous or fruitarian diet then that is what they are, we choose to be what we want in these matters. Nature may have made us to be adaptable to eating animals, but as you say we could eat worms slugs insects etc..we could eat wood if we choose or stones ,sand etc if we wanted to.

[Mozbee]

Yikes Stu, if your fellow chattee is reallee the ultimate predator in Geobau's pressence I'd feel like a snail waiting to be squished!!!:D

But, after consulting others from the 'vegan proffesion' (:)) I will have to diagnose Geobau as suffering from an extreme case of Nurtured Speciesism please inform the formentioned person sensitively (not);)

[Realfood Mary]

I am the ultimate preditory omnivore that nature has created.

Once our household had stopped laughing at the ultimate predatory wan... sorry omnivore and I thought I should just point out that if he is a natural predator, why doesn't he behave like every other predator on the planet, and use his sharp teeth, talons etc, and bring down his prey like nature intended - naked and unarmed.

Sorry if someone has already posted this idea - I just read the initial post. After that I was laughing too hard to get much further for a while.

By the way, nutritionists suggest that we snack more, like other primates do. It helps keep blood sugars etc down and helps to combat diabetes. And where does he get this stuff on gorillas from? Plonker!

Good luck arguing with the unrepentant meat head anyway. You won't convert him, but you may help some of the others.

[Pilaf]

Have you ever considered just not arguing with people and setting a good example instead? You can't realistically expect to convert people to veganism by arguing with them. It's a slow, natural evolution of human culture which will take at least five more generations to take solid root. We'd might as well accept that and just do what we can in our short lifetimes, by refusing to eat or use animal products ourselves and getting involved with pro-vegan organizations. It's best to just raise awareness through fellowship and strict adherence to one's own lifestyle.

[Realfood Mary]

I have to disagree with that. When I was a kid I used to argue with the veggies I knew, and they really "gave it to me." Served me right, I was a brat. (I know, I know! A vegan campaigner used to be an obnoxious and objectionable meat head. I am so ashamed...)

Then when I was a fish eater the adult veggies that I knew were too "polite" to call me on the fact that fish are animals too. It took a seven year old to do the right thing and shame me into going properly veggie, then vegan. (Actually I thank my son for that, even before he was born, but I'll tell you all that later!) Thank goodness I say for people who do argue. It is not just one meat eating buffoon who is reading the argument, but others on the same forum. Who knows, this back and forth might (in fact probably will) plant the seed for someone to go vegan or veggie.

I agree that it will take generations - maybe 200 years. But we only have short lives, and as you say Pilaf, we should do what we can with them. Arguing for the rights of other animals not to be eaten and abused for their milk eggs etc is as good a use of our limited lives as possible.

Not everyone has it in them to argue. Some people will campaign differently, but I wouldn't criticise someone for raising awareness. Seems like a good opportunity to me.