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veganpollo
Nov 14th, 2009, 10:53 PM
i ment a dead animal... animals are someones... to wear someone dead... that sounds to me rather sick and preverted...=/

Rocking corpses isn't appealing at all.
Even less appealing would be to put them into my stomach.


If I was in the tundra, and my only option as the hide of a caribou, I might do it... not without a tremendous amount of guilt. Just as a means of survival.

Thankfully, I live in a society and situation where animal products are totally not necessary to my life or survival. (:

DavidT
Nov 16th, 2009, 11:45 AM
Any contribution to less animal suffering is a good act, though.

This is a good line. I like it. It's more-or-less like a thought that I use on everyone but most especially on meat-eaters.

Vangrrl79
Nov 16th, 2009, 06:58 PM
I ahve not thrown out any of the stuff I bought before I became a vegan. I still wear my Aldo shoes. My vegan shoes are not as comfortable, so when I know I will have a lot of standing to do, I wear my Aldos. I still wear my pre-vegan belts. On rare occasions I will even put on my leather jacket. I really don't think my using these items does any harm. The harm was done when I paid for them all. I no longer buy non-vegan products. I recently bought some vegan shaving cream. It's fantastic! I can't wait to shave tomorrow. I like the soaps too. Yes, it can get pricey, but I think it is more important to spare the suffering of innocent animals than to save a few dollars.

I work at a Seventh-Day Adventist University. SDAs are already more receptive to the idea of vegetarianism, so I have been quite open about my veganism. I hope it will do some good.

THANKS! This post set my mind at ease.

I was having some debate with what to do with my pregan things like my fave watch and my beloved Birks.

I agree that the damage was one when I slapped the card down to pay for these things and simply tossing them now only adds more insult to injury.

Once these items wear out that will be it for me, but until then there is no point in creating more waste.

Plus I am not made of money (jst like most of us) and simply can't replace things at whim.

veganpollo
Nov 20th, 2009, 06:36 AM
Wearing leather and representing death and flesh all over your body seems a little on the less-than-vegan side.

I still own two articles of wool, and two pairs of leather boots. I haven't touched them for a year, I just don't know whether to sell them and profit off of animal death or to bury them ritualistically.

To me, wearing leather... even fake leather... is kind of criminal.
It isn't expanding one's horizon to non-cruel options, and it kind of limits others' scope of "what a vegan is."

I wear Ethletic shoes; they look a lot like converse, but they're organic. They cost about the same, too. When people happen to bring them up, I let them know where I get them and why I do. They're fair trade, organic, vegan shoes.

At least one person I know has specifically bought vegan shoes because of it.

To promote cruelty is to promote cruelty.
Similarly, the man who watches a beating and does nothing is as guilty as he who is throwing the punches.

That's only my opinion, but it makes sense to me & that is how I live my life. Your life obviously consists of your own definition of morality, and please don't feel as though I am attacking that. (:
(end disclaimer...)

I hope my posts have given at least one person insight to other perspectives. (:

leedsveg
Nov 20th, 2009, 09:26 AM
Wearing leather and representing death and flesh all over your body seems a little on the less-than-vegan side.

Your life obviously consists of your own definition of morality, and please don't feel as though I am attacking that. (:
(end disclaimer...)
(: [my underlining lv]

Since 'vegan perfection' is probably impossible, unless we cut ourselves off from the world, we all have to make compromises. As the compromises are bound to vary due to a myriad of varying personal circumstances, it's probably best not to engage in any 'I'm more vegan than you because you do xyz and I don't (or vice versa)' competitions.

leedsveg:)

sandra
Nov 20th, 2009, 09:58 AM
To me, wearing leather... even fake leather... is kind of criminal.
It isn't expanding one's horizon to non-cruel options, and it kind of limits others' scope of "what a vegan is"

Hi Veganpollo, I don't wear leather (of course) but I do wear fake stuff. I love to point out to people who think my jacket/boots are leather that indeed they aren't. They then go away in the knowledge that using an animal's skin as clothing is just not necessary.

I think I am 'expanding' OTHERS horizons to non-cruel options by wearing fake leather, plus I am proud to wear a badge saying 'VEGAN' on my jacket too. I love to see the expression on people's faces when they are putting two and two together! :D

veganpollo
Nov 20th, 2009, 02:10 PM
[my underlining lv]

Since 'vegan perfection' is probably impossible, unless we cut ourselves off from the world, we all have to make compromises. As the compromises are bound to vary due to a myriad of varying personal circumstances, it's probably best not to engage in any 'I'm more vegan than you because you do xyz and I don't (or vice versa)' competitions.

leedsveg:)

Chill. I'm being 100% sincere.
Just giving an opinion. It doesn't seem vegan to me, and the question was raised (there are two sides to every coin, now).

In my (humble) opinion, it's just disturbing to see leather. It bugs me and makes my skin crawl, as well as fur.

It doesn't seem vegan to me is the statement I made. That's like vegans who eat honey or ovo-lacto vegetarians. I feel no different about them. Pescitarians often call themselves vegetarians and I'm not going to hop on a soapbox for them because any kind act or gesture toward any being in a sympathetic manner gets at A+ in my book. :D

I don't wear leather. I don't feel it's vegan. Other people have their own definition of that and while I am entitled to respond with my opinion, I am not going to essentially shit all over their beliefs because I disagree. That would actually be hurting my cause of veganism more than helping it.

And I agree: vegan perfection is impossible. Animals will always suffer, as people do. We can only strive for our best and evaluate our motivations. For many it's health. (: Others it's animal liberation. And for some, both. It's all good though. Helping ourselves, animals, and the planet. :thumbsup:

leedsveg
Nov 20th, 2009, 10:11 PM
Hi veganpollo and sandra

I hear what you both say. I went to see my dentist today and lay on the leather* couch while I was having a tooth filled. (*It looked like leather, smelled like leather and I'm sure it was leather.)

Perhaps I could have asked to be treated on a non-leather couch (don't remember ever seeing such a thing there) or I could have taken my custom elsewhere and tried to find a dentist with a non-leather couch.

I did neither but chose to have my treatment on the skin of a dead animal. In other words, I used a (dead) animal. Maybe as well if I'd said something at the time, this would have encouraged the dentist and assistant to think more positively about veganism, but I chose not to because I didn't think they'd understand.

I don't doubt that some vegans would have made the same choice as me, and I don't doubt that others would not have. It does seem that for we vegans, it's very often a case of 'damned if you do' and 'damned if you don't'.

I realise that my little story is not about wearing (faux-)leather, but the principle is the same.

Good wishes for your veganism

leedsveg:)

Tofu Monkey
Nov 21st, 2009, 03:47 AM
As most people have said in this thread, If I have any cosmetics that are non-vegan, I will use them up until they are gone and replace with vegan alternatives. I've never been a fan of leather so I wouldn't have that dilemma.

When it comes to eating meat/dairy out of politeness, this is definitely something I would never do. If I ever go round someone's house for dinner, I would state well in advance that I do not eat meat or dairy. I would feel it more impolite to eat the food and for them to find out at a later date that I was a Vegan. Plus I haven't eaten meat in nearly 7 years and the thought of eating a dead corpse makes me heave so I wouldn't even be able to put any in my mouth before I was being sick.

Luckily I only have this dilemma with my boyfriend's folks and I try avoid going there as much as possible. They're very old fashioned and although they don't criticize my beliefs, they don't really understand the full extent of veganism so they often have to be prompted by my boyfriend about certain foods and the like...

baby_vicuņa
Nov 21st, 2009, 05:15 AM
^ I hear you. I live with my parents, who are quite fond of leather furniture (I'm currently sitting on a couch with leather armrests). Sadly, I'm used to leather. It gets to me every now and then, but for the most part, I ignore it (and obviously don't buy leather products and all that).

But we can only do so much. IMO, it's "to each his own" when it comes to these grey areas in veganism. I gave away all my "pregan" leather and wool, but of course I don't judge those that kept theirs. I have fake leather shoes and a wallet (and I love telling people that they are, in fact, "fake" :)).

I agree with sandra, I think fake leather shows people that you don't need the real stuff. I have a friend that is immediately turned off when she finds out a pair of leather boots are fake. She complemented my ugg-boots one time and asked where I got them. I told her and also that they were fake. She was shocked :D.

sandra
Nov 21st, 2009, 11:01 AM
Thanks Baby Vicuna, I love to see that 'shocked' look on people's faces too when they find out something isn't leather.

In my opinion you cannot compare the wearing of an animal's skin with wearing faux material. As long as there is no substance from an animal in any food or clothes then it it vegan. :)

leedsveg
Nov 21st, 2009, 12:13 PM
As long as there is no substance from an animal in any food or clothes then it it vegan. :)

Hi sandra

Veganism seems to be a very complex business and not surprisingly we as individuals appear to have 'individual definitions' about just what makes each of us 'vegan'.

You would not 'of course' wear leather, but somebody else might decide to use the leather shoes they bought before they went vegan, until they are worn out, when they will then buy non-leather shoes. As Joanne Stepaniak says about this situation in her book Being Vegan '...each vegan must determine her or his own threshold of tolerance and make choices based on individual need and economic circumstances.'

When wine is clarified, animal finings are often used in the process, but these are removed before the wine is bottled. Going by your above definition, you seem to be ok about drinking such wine, but speaking only for myself, I would not feel ok about drinking it.

I'm not having a go at anybody but just trying to point out that if there are say, 50 million vegans in the world, then there are probably 50 million definitions of what a vegan does/doesn't do.

leedsveg:thumbsup:

Arbar
Nov 21st, 2009, 12:54 PM
Well, stupidly, it has only just occured to me thast I'm sitting on a wool carpet (well, 80% wool. I guess that makes it 20% vegan!). I can't replace all the wool carpets in the house unfortunately (not my decision) so I'm having to suck it up. I feel like a hyopocrite, because I'd never wear leather or wool, and yet have a lot of wool in the house :(

sandra
Nov 21st, 2009, 01:43 PM
Hi sandra

When wine is clarified, animal finings are often used in the process, but these are removed before the wine is bottled. Going by your above definition, you seem to be ok about drinking such wine, but speaking only for myself, I would not feel ok about drinking it.

leedsveg:thumbsup:



Hi Leedsveg, you are assuming a little too much about me. ;) I would not and do NOT drink wine that has been fined using animal substances!
Just thought I'd clear that up! :)

cobweb
Nov 21st, 2009, 10:08 PM
but surely when animal finings are used there's a big chance that there will be some contamination of the alcohol so it would theoretically contain 'animal substance' and therefore would not meet Sandra's personal criteria anyway?

Haniska
Nov 22nd, 2009, 12:28 AM
Do you eat vegan hotdogs?

baby_vicuņa
Nov 22nd, 2009, 01:24 AM
I'm not having a go at anybody but just trying to point out that if there are say, 50 million vegans in the world, then there are probably 50 million definitions of what a vegan does/doesn't do.

Good point, I completely agree.


Well, stupidly, it has only just occured to me thast I'm sitting on a wool carpet (well, 80% wool. I guess that makes it 20% vegan!). I can't replace all the wool carpets in the house unfortunately (not my decision) so I'm having to suck it up. I feel like a hyopocrite, because I'd never wear leather or wool, and yet have a lot of wool in the house :(

I know what you mean. Sometimes I completely forget I'm sitting on a leather couch (as I said, my house is full of leather). Or like in the car, I almost never think about the leather on the steering wheel and whatnot :(. There's only so much we can do, no need to feel like a hypocrite :).

shellymi2nv
Nov 22nd, 2009, 04:36 AM
there was a new york times blog yesterday about food requirements of guests:

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/complaint-box-picky-eaters/?scp=2&sq=vegan&st=cse

major obnoxiousness towards vegans, if i may say so.

leedsveg
Nov 22nd, 2009, 08:48 AM
As long as there is no substance from an animal in any food or clothes then it it vegan. :)


Hi Leedsveg, you are assuming a little too much about me. ;) I would not and do NOT drink wine that has been fined using animal substances! Just thought I'd clear that up! :)


but surely when animal finings are used there's a big chance that there will be some contamination of the alcohol so it would theoretically contain 'animal substance' and therefore would not meet Sandra's personal criteria anyway?

Hi sandra & cobweb

I think it was the simplicity of the definition that threw me. Thanks for the clarification, sandra.

Not sure how much contamination is left after finings are removed (if any) but if we, as vegans, are going to totally avoid all food and drink possibly contaminated by 'the microscopic', then life is going to get pretty difficult. Of course animal ingredients mean animal exploitation but animal exploitation does not necessarily involve animal ingredients.

Best wishes

leedsveg:)

cobweb
Nov 22nd, 2009, 09:35 AM
^ i basically agree with what you say leedsveg, but i've looked at the wines in co-op that are labelled vegetarian, vegan, or not, and in the 'not' category they actually list on the label *ingredients* containing various disgusting animal bits and bobs :(.

to me its coming back to doing what you can - i'll buy synthetic shoes even if i'm not totally sure of the glue used, for instance, because i simply can't financially manage to buy from vegan only outlets :undecided:. I suppose if i'm doing that i may aswell eat 'contaminated' food, or drink un-vegan wine (if i still drank wine ;)) - but just on a personal level that would feel different because that's bits of other people's bodies going into my body.

i s'pose veganism will always have to be quite an individual thing really.

leedsveg
Nov 22nd, 2009, 09:55 AM
major obnoxiousness towards vegans, if i may say so.

Hi shelly

I read the blog thinking that vegans had come in for special condemnation, but not so.:question:

I have 100% sympathy for the blogger if she's tried in the past to accommodate the disparate dietary requirements of her guests and if it now seems to have got too difficult for her to carry on as before, I'm not surprised. We have no more right to demand 'vegan food' when we go to an omni's house than they have the right to demand a bacon sandwich when they come to ours.:eek:

(As an aside, I remember travelling to Israel in 1972, with two English girls I'd met at a youth hostel in Cyprus. The boat landed in Haifa and being hungry, we went to the nearest cafe for a meal. After eating salad with chopped liver, we asked for coffees and along they came, all black. My companions requested a little milk and were amazed when the owner said that because of the laws of kashrut, they would have to wait eight hours before he could oblige them. The girls knew that bacon wasn't kosher, but they'd never heard of the proscription on mixing meat and milk dishes at the same meal. I tried describing what laws I could remember from Leviticus, but it all just didn't make any sense to them.)

leedsveg:D

leedsveg
Nov 22nd, 2009, 10:11 AM
i s'pose veganism will always have to be quite an individual thing really.

Hi cobweb

I'm sure that the vegetables I eat are not veganically grown so there must be microscopic bits of animal going into my body. Having said that, I'm not about to make a dodgy rationalisation and think 'If I'm ok with that, may as well eat a pork chop....':eek:

As vegan individuals, we do our best and if our best is not good enough for others, b****cks sez I!:D

leedsveg:thumbsup:

[off now for my Sunday run; you'd think I'd know better at my age-63]

cobweb
Nov 22nd, 2009, 11:16 AM
Hi cobweb

I'm sure that the vegetables I eat are not veganically grown so there must be microscopic bits of animal going into my body. Having said that, I'm not about to make a dodgy rationalisation and think 'If I'm ok with that, may as well eat a pork chop....':eek:

As vegan individuals, we do our best and if our best is not good enough for others, b****cks sez I!:D

leedsveg:thumbsup:

[off now for my Sunday run; you'd think I'd know better at my age-63]


that's kind of my point, yes
i suppose having seen on the wine labels 'contains xyz' i'd avoid it
i wash my veg so i hope i'm washing off any icky stuff, but if it had a label on it saying 'contains gelatine' (for instance) i wouldn't buy it.
that's probably faulty logic, its turning a blind eye to other things like non-vegan glue on shoes, but like you say, we all do the best we can :)

enjoy your run and don't overdo it ;)

sandra
Nov 22nd, 2009, 12:05 PM
As vegan individuals, we do our best and if our best is not good enough for others, b****cks sez I!:D

leedsveg:thumbsup:

[off now for my Sunday run; you'd think I'd know better at my age-63]

I agree Leedsveg, we can all only do our best in this unvegan world. :)

p.s. I hope you enjoy your run. You are only a young pup...........my dad was out running when he was 83! :eek: :D

Mahk
Nov 22nd, 2009, 09:16 PM
Not sure how much contamination is left after finings are removed (if any) but if we, as vegans, are going to totally avoid all food and drink possibly contaminated by 'the microscopic', then life is going to get pretty difficult. Of course animal ingredients mean animal exploitation but animal exploitation does not necessarily involve animal ingredients.
It's immaterial what the degree of contamination is. Even if there was some sure fire method to ensure that exactly 100% of the fining material is successfully removed, without fail, every single time, the point is that cows were still purposely killed, in part, to make the wine.
---

Regarding LV's kosher restaurant experience, I thought to pass on what info I know. Observant Jews who follow a Kosher diet won't eat dairy and meat in the same meal, or within six hours of eachother, because of an incredibly extrapolated view of this singular passage:

Tenth Commandment on Exodus 34; '.... Thou shalt not seethe (boil) a kid in his mother's milk."

A kid is a young goat.

Clever rabbinical scholars realized what god really meant and have since dictated the specifics, formulating modern day kosher laws regarding dairy and meat:

- all animals that we eat, including cows, are to be included, not just goats.
- the animal can be of any age, not just a young one.
- when god said "its mother" he really meant any milk from any species of animal, they need not be related.
- when god said "seethe" he really meant "touch eachother", the temperature is immaterial.
- by touch each other he meant has ever touched, including surfaces in common, like kitchen utensils and preparation surfaces which once touched by milk or meat become contaminated with that substance and may never be used to touch the other category, even if washed and a wait period of 6-8 hours has passed. (that's the time frame that allows our stomachs to touch both food groups) A knife which has passed through meat may never be used to cut a loaf of bread which contains dairy otherwise both the food and the knife become "treif" (filthy and unusable) and must be discarded or in rare cases utensils may be buried underground for years in order to re-purify them.

Kosher Jews can still eat on a treif/filthy surface if need be, such as an airline seat tray which inevitably has been used for both milk and meat, if the food being served is wrapped in three layers of protective paper and was prepared in a Kosher kitchen.