Canned or fresh?

[eve]

I read an article in today's Qld Sunday Mail that refers to a Harvard School of Public Health report confirming that tomato products are a better source of lycopene than fresh tomatoes. Seems the heat processing of canned foods causes the lycopene to be better absorbed by the body. Actually I've also read recently that tomato sauce has more nutriment than tomatoes. Where does this leave the rawfoodists?

The article also refers to the current age of 'orthorexia nervosa' - a 'disease' coined to illustrate the almost religious obsession with 'pure' eating that many people have - rather like the 'organic' purists. But there is a groundswell of evidence that frozen and/or canned fruit and vegies rate high in the taste test too, plus a 16 percent cost saving. I use very few canned foods, but always canned chickpeas to make homus, and canned beans of various types - it is easier and quicker. I also prefer frozen spinach because I don't know how long the fresh spinach has been wilting at the greengrocers. :)

[tails4wagging]

does the research show that any aluminium from tins can get absorbed by the the food then into our bodies?. I seem to remember some years ago, a bit of a scare about that??

[Mystic]

I read an article in today's Qld Sunday Mail that refers to a Harvard School of Public Health report confirming that tomato products are a better source of lycopene than fresh tomatoes. Seems the heat processing of canned foods causes the lycopene to be better absorbed by the body. Actually I've also read recently that tomato sauce has more nutriment than tomatoes. Where does this leave the rawfoodists?

I heard about this too...I love canned tomatoes, tomato puree and tomato sauce so this is good news for me!!!! I tend to eat more fresh tomatoes though, just coz I do...

I don't use canned beans very often just because dried beans are much cheaper and they really don't take that much effort (just soaking and boiling)

[Korn]

In some cases, processed food is more concentrated, less watery, and therefore have higher concentrations of certain nutrients, due to the boiling process. In the tomato example, if one should make a soup with tomato sauce or tomato pure, one would most likely add more water than if using fresh tomatoes. And when adding water to the canned tomatoes, the amount of nutrients pr. serving would be less that in the sauce or puree anyway, so the final meal might contain as little (or less) nutrient than if it was made with fresh tomatos.

Cooking food changes the chemistry of what you cook, and I can't see any reason why the end result never should contain more of one useful nutrient or another. I'm not living on pure raw food myself - but feel than more raw food in most cases, for most people, at least for me, is better.

Regarding religious food obsessions, I think it is likely that that the more pure, raw or organic a diet is, the more it potentially could attract people with eating disorders or neurotic obsessions. So many people could go organic, raw or vegan for the 'wrong' reasons.

[PinkFluffyCloud]

TeeHee, the bit about 'religious food obsessions' made me chuckle, that's exactly how many of my friends and family have described Veganism!!

[Mystic]

Regarding religious food obsessions, I think it is likely that that the more pure, raw or organic a diet is, the more it potentially could attract people with eating disorders or neurotic obsessions. So many people could go organic, raw or vegan for the 'wrong' reasons.

Korn I couldn't agree more - I do suffer with anorexia nervosa and although my veganism is NOT eating disorder based, occassionally during difficult periods I will try to control my diet by going organic or 'wholefoods'. I also have experienced people who are inclined to be eating disorder minded and when they learn of my veganism they always want to adopt it, thinking that is why I am skinny. I quickly inform them of the abundant existance of vegan chocolate, ice cream, cookies, cakes, desserts and flavoured milks etc, and they soon change their mind - veganism itself is not restrictive - any diet is restrictive if you deprive yourself of the things you like coz you want to lose weight.

Very few people, I imagine could be happy being 100% raw - I am not implying that all raw-foodists or whole-foodists have eating disorders (think our beloved CC for example), but food is too social these days and lets face it - most of us enjoy sugary, gooey, doughey, salty, greasy food once in a while (come on guys admit it :p )

[gertvegan]

Can it (http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/magazine/buyers/81/tinnedveg.pdf) , a pdf from the ethical consumer is an interesting little read, and relevant to this thread. :eek:

[foxytina_69]

most of us enjoy sugary, gooey, doughey, salty, greasy food once in a while (come on guys admit it :p )


i admit it! i love greasy salty gooey foods! (sugar isnt my weakness, and i usually cant eat doughy things LOL)

[cedarblue]

i know this doesnt apply to tomatoes but isnt frozen foods better nutritionally than canned as the food has to be frozen within a certain time limit and so this cuts out the amount of time that it can deteriorate before canning?

sometimes depending on where the food comes from, frozen may definately be better nutrition-wise and air-miles wise.

[GreenEnvy]

Fresh vegetables are more healthy than canned vegetables in the long -run. The factor that determines our age is how many many free radicals of oxygen we have in our bodies. Free radicals of oxygen are harmful but by eating fresh vegetables (especially tomato) we can reduce the amount of free radicals that we have, and therefore pro-long our lives.
You see, oxygen is gas that likes to exist in pairs (02), as we get older our body loses its ability to combine the oxgen and so we have more single oxygen particles than we would if we were younger. Fresh vegetables (grown with natural substances as fertilisers e.g. manure) contain anti-oxygens which mop up the singe oxygens and help us to live longer.

This is what my biology teacher and I were discussing last friday. She has a book about it, and is going to show it to me next lesson. So I'll know more about it next friday :)

[casey_veggoddes]

"The article also refers to the current age of 'orthorexia nervosa' - a 'disease' coined to illustrate the almost religious obsession with 'pure' eating that many people have - rather like the 'organic' purists."


I can't believe they actually made up a "disease" to describe the people who only want to eat NORMAL unsprayed, unprocessed food...wait considering how ridiculous our system of medicine is I do believe it. :rolleyes: Wouldn't want too many people being free from chemicals and junk food now would we? Not much profit in that!

[Korn]

Some more comments related to the fresh/canned issue:

http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?p=20068#post20068

As you can see, there is disagreement about how much vitamins that gets lost during cooking and storing... What I know, is that I think fresh juice, hummus or pesto has a better taste than their canned equivalents.

[Mystic]

What I know, is that I think fresh juice, hummus or pesto has a better taste than their canned equivalents.

Aye

[eve]

"The article also refers to the current age of 'orthorexia nervosa' - a 'disease' coined to illustrate the almost religious obsession with 'pure' eating that many people have - rather like the 'organic' purists." I can't believe they actually made up a "disease" to describe the people who only want to eat NORMAL unsprayed, unprocessed food...wait considering how ridiculous our system of medicine is I do believe it. :rolleyes: Wouldn't want too many people being free from chemicals and junk food now would we? Not much profit in that!
They didn't make up a disease, it is a term used ironically to describe those people who insist on orthodoxy whether in relation to raw foods, organic, etc.
If you want to eat *normal* unsprayed unprocessed food, perhaps you could tell me where to buy it. What unprocessed foods do you actually consume?

Green Envy, I suggest you ask your biology teacher for chapter and verse before writing about 'anti oxygens' and living longer. I agree with cedar blue that frozen is preferable to canned, as the freezing is carried out almost immediately the food is picked. That's why I like frozen spinach. But as to the canned chickpeas etc - I make a delicious homus using canned chickpeas, tahini, lemon juice, garlic, and a little olive oil. It is far superior to the sort that is sold in little plastic cartons at the supermarket.

The point is that one can't always go shopping every day for fresh fruit and veggies, and even if that were possible, how do we know that the produce is freshly picked every day? :)

[Korn]

I've also noticed that hummus made of canned chick peas is more tasty than canned hummus.

I think that I've never heard anyone say 'you should eat less fresh vegetables, and more canned food'. But I have heard that some nutrients are more easily available after cooking, like the lycopene in tomatoes. Getting a good overview of what is healthy and not requires a lot of knowledge, and I think we all would like it to become a little simpler than it is, by saying that ******* always is better than ******... But very few things in life are black or white.

According to Dr. Sears: 'generally, the less processing, the better. In nutrient value, fresh is better than frozen, and frozen is better than canned. But there are many exceptions. Much depends upon the time between harvesting, and freezing, and canning. A vegetable that is frozen or canned hours after harvesting may contain more vitamins than a fresh veggie that has had to travel across the country to market. There are various nutritional tradeoffs from packaging and processing. For example, canned and frozen vegetables contain more sodium. Frozen broccoli may contain more beta carotene, since the stalks have been removed, leaving only the florets in the package, but it will have less calcium and more sodium.'

I'll post a chart showing how much of certain nutrients that are lost during canning / freezing later.

[vegecentric]

Hi All,
This is my first post. I agree with Eve, cooking unlocks nutrients in foods such as chickpeas, soybeans, lentils etc that otherwise would be inedible to humans (forget tofu, tempeh for example, without cooking). That's not to say raw salad veggies, fruit etc are not very good for you - of course they are. Everything in balance and moderation (except dark chocolate!).

What isn't so good for you, but tastes pretty good anyway, are the Hash Browns I bought from the frozen section of the supermarket yesterday. They used to be made with beef tallow, but now are cooked in sunflower oil. Vegan Hash Browns - yum! I cooked them with sweet corn and a huge bunch of steamed veg, plus fried veg sausages. Very nice!
Regards,
Tom

[casey_veggoddes]

They didn't make up a disease, it is a term used ironically to describe those people who insist on orthodoxy whether in relation to raw foods, organic, etc.
If you want to eat *normal* unsprayed unprocessed food, perhaps you could tell me where to buy it. What unprocessed foods do you actually consume?


You sound like you were somehow offended by my statement, which I really don't understand. I was just expressing my opinion that people who chose to eat only organic or even only raw foods are not in any way shape or form suffering from some sort of mental disorder. Whether they were "ironically" or literally calling those people that doesn't really make a difference to me. The same could be said about vegans who chose not to eat any animal products, I'm sure if it was used in that context it would have been offensive to most people here. I don't think labeling people in such ways is appropriate.

Unsprayed foods are organic foods. Unprocessed foods are things like plain brown rice, plain whole wheat couscous, and of course fresh fruits and veggies. Minimally processed foods is what I try to buy, stuff like Amy's brand, where there's nothing unnatural added, and also frozen organic produce would fall under that category. These are just my personal definitions, but I hope that answers your question.

[eve]

Can it (http://www.ethicalconsumer.org/magazine/buyers/81/tinnedveg.pdf) , a pdf from the ethical consumer is an interesting little read, and relevant to this thread. :eek:
Thank you gertvegan. I haven't finished reading it yet as it is rather lengthy, but it is certainly on my list to read. :) PS: The initial paragraph doesn't make happy reading for me!

[eve]

casey_veggoddes, my apologies if you were offended by my post. It is also my aim to use minimally processed foods - to say unprocessed is drawing a long bow these days. Even, for example, plain whole wheat couscous is not unprocessed, though the wheat grains may be! Amy's brand I don't know as it isn't available here in Australia. Fresh fruits and veggies comprise the major part of my diet, though 'fresh' is in doubt because there's no indication as to how long the items have spent being transported to the regional town where I live, nor how long they have been at the greengrocer's shop. We do the best we can, but when it comes to leafy green veggies, it's the frozen products that I buy (they are fresher).

[PinkFluffyCloud]

I have just been reading part of my 'Self Reliance' book, which says that , if we all ate a large amount of fresh 'sprouts' each day (which any of us can grow indoors), then we could live quite healthfully, and cheaply, if the rest of our diet was made up of dried Pulses and Grains, and a little fresh juice.
I love sprouts, but hadn't realised how much Protein they contain, I will definitely be growing more now.

[chakra]

This is surely an interesting and informative discussion. I remember sharing a ski lift at Heavenly Valley once with an agriculturist who stated that frozen vegetables are more nutritious than fresh produce from the supermarket because the storing and transporting will degrade the product more than field processing for freezing.

So I generally go for frozen spinach, peas, and lima beans. Kale, brocolli, mushrooms, sprouts, carrots, etc., I prefer fresh organic stock. They hold up well and these days are much fresher in the store.

Canned tomatoes are good. Even the best vine ripe ones I can find are not generally as good and real expensive too. Modern cans have a synthetic coating so the food is completely uneffected. The lush rich redness of Muir organic crushed tomatos is unbelievable, like you just picked the ripe ones yourself. For cooking and sauce purposes.

As for the legumes, I read somewhere years ago that overnight soaking would begin the growth process - turn on the vital center. Not enough to change the carbs to sugars or start growing, but switch them on and make the food vital. So I usually soak the hard beans for about 18-24 hours.

[cedarblue]

I have just been reading part of my 'Self Reliance' book, which says that , if we all ate a large amount of fresh 'sprouts' each day (which any of us can grow indoors), then we could live quite healthfully, and cheaply, if the rest of our diet was made up of dried Pulses and Grains, and a little fresh juice.
I love sprouts, but hadn't realised how much Protein they contain, I will definitely be growing more now.



who is the author pinky? and the full title please??

[PinkFluffyCloud]

Cedarblue, the book is called 'Self Reliance, A Recipe For the New Millenium', by John Yeoman, published by 'Permanent Publications'.
I bought it 'nearly new' off Amazon UK.

The book is easy to follow, and covers everything from how to get out of debt, how to make and grow your own foods, and how to make your own tools, etc. I have to say that it does include a small section on fishing/catching your own food, though the author doesn't seem to be in complete approval (shame he included it then!!) - and it is still worthwhile for all its other information.

[Las Vegan]

Do you guys know anything about Dr. Norman W. Walker? I don't, but he was an active spokesman for Juice Therapy, and he emphasized that the juices always should be fresh. He lived until he was 119, and wrote his last book when he was 115.

Here is what I found at http://www.yourlifesource.com/upfold/do_we_need_vitamins.htm:


ARE VITAMIN PILLS THE SAME AS THE VITAMINS IN FOOD?


Vitamins and nutrition have become hot topics these days. News media, books, health food stores and advertising campaigns are educating us about why we need vitamins and minerals. It is encouraging to see an increased realization of the role nutrients play in preventative health-care and in helping the body to heal itself with a strengthened immune system.


But we get a lot of misinformation on this subject from those who profit from the manufacture, distribution or advertising of the multi-billion dollar synthetic vitamin and processed foods industries. Let's take a look at what modern science knows about nutrition, what we are being told about nutrition, what we are not being told about nutrition... and why:

On Apples and Oranges
The result of the influence from the big business of synthetic vitamins and processed food is a neglect of any distinction between natural vitamins and synthetic vitamins. For example, we are generally not told there is any difference between the Vitamin C in a fresh apple or orange versus the Vitamin C in a pharmaceutically-manufactured, synthetic pill, or synthetic vitamins added to "enrich" or "fortify" processed foods, such as white bread and sugar-coated cereal.


In most of this mass-disseminated wisdom of modern medical science, you also find no distinction between nutrients that are dead and nutrients that are alive. We are told to eat our fruits and vegetables, but we are not told there is a difference between a fresh, living, raw carrot and one that has been boiled, baked, steamed, radiated... or processed, preserved and canned on a grocery shelf.

Living Organisms
Another point overlooked is the essential fact that our body is a living organism made of living cells that are constantly regenerating... and that living cells need living food to create healthy new living cells. Scientists understand and accept the fact that the life of our body stems from the life of some 100 trillion living cells that are constantly regenerating. It is estimated that 300 million cells are replaced in our body every minute.


We know the food we eat, the liquids we drink and the air we breathe provide the energy and the building blocks for this massive, ongoing rebuilding of cells. We know that raw vegetables and fruits are composed of living cells, and that the cells of these fruits and vegetables contain the same organic minerals, natural vitamins, living enzymes and assimiable protein that our cells need. We also know that cooking, freezing, radiating or processing kills food, stopping its cellular activity... and that once we have taken the life from food, there is nothing we can do that can restore that life. This irreversible change alters amino acids (protein) and minerals, and destroys all enzymes and most vitamins.


But despite what we know, there are those who would like us to believe processed foods are as beneficial to us as raw, living food, and that synthetic vitamins in pills and processed foods are as good as natural vitamins in raw food. The truth is that modern science knows relatively little about the long-term effects of how man-made chemicals and altered natural substances interact with our bodies on the cellular level. Warnings have been issued about the dangers of high doses of synthetic Vitamin C, B1 and A, and similar problems are suspected with synthetic Vitamin E. It's possible that a short-term boost may be felt from some synthetic vitamins. But let's address the question of whether they can take the place of living nutrients in supplying material for our cells to function, regenerate new living cells and build a healthy immune system.


There appear to be three schools of thought on this comparison between natural nutrients in fresh, raw food versus synthetic vitamins and inorganic minerals.

The first school is characterized by a total silence on the subject of any distinction between natural and synthetic. They'll say a pill has X number of international units of certain vitamins, and they may say what these vitamins are good for. You may notice one of these little pills has a lot more Vitamin C than an apple or orange. But they make no claim about whether X amount of synthetic Vitamin C is as good as the same amount of Vitamin C in oranges. They also avoid the subject of whether a person could live healthily on synthetic vitamins alone without ever consuming natural vitamins in food.

The second school of thought includes "experts" who recommend synthetic vitamin supplements, but warn we should also eat a balanced diet. Some of these experts acknowledge food is a more "reliable source" of nutrients than vitamins found in pills. But they don't explain the difference, and they still say we should take the synthetic supplements, just in case we don't get enough nutrients in our diet.

The third school of thought is a minority opinion.. This school teaches that there is a major difference between live food and dead food (or live nutrients and dead nutrients), and that the living cells in our bodies are designed to be nourished by live food and live nutrients, rather than dead, processed food and synthetic vitamins.


Science has substantiated the superior nutritional value of raw fruits and vegetables, but this emphasis on live foods is still a minority opinion among nutritionists and even in the health food business. From almost every direction, we are told that cooked, frozen and processed food is comparable to fresh, raw food, and that synthetic vitamins can fill our nutritional needs.


How could we ever comprehend an explanation for this tremendous lapse in mass-disseminated scientific knowledge if we didn't consider the fact that there is more money to be made from selling synthetic vitamins and processed foods than from raw, live food that can be grown in a backyard garden.


A book from six decades ago is more advanced than some of the latest scientific work with vitamins. Dr. Norman W. Walker wrote Fresh Vegetable and Fruit Juices in 1936, with the premise that a deficiency of vitamins, minerals and enzymes is the primary cause of practically all sickness. Dr. Walker was seriously ill in his early 50's when he was encouraged to try natural healing. He went on to develop the concept of healing with fresh vegetable and fruit juices, and lived to be 119 years old, writing his last book at age 115. Dr. Walker taught all healing and regeneration of the body must come from within. Hippocrates, the Fourth Century B.C. Greek physician who is the Father of Medicine, based his teachings on this same principle. To best nourish our immune system, Dr. Walker taught we should eat a vegetarian diet composed predominately of fresh, raw vegetables, fruits, seeds and nuts. He agreed with nutritionists who say it is difficult to get optimal amounts of some nutrients from eating food. Advocates of synthetic vitamins use this as an argument for taking mega-doses of vitamin pills. Dr. Walker's teachings are more advanced than these modern nutritionists because he recognized the difference between live nutrients and dead nutrients.


Dr. Walker developed Juice Therapy as a means of consuming more nutrients than can be obtained by eating food. In drinking fresh juice, nutrients come from live, raw vegetables and fruits, without heating, freezing or other processing that would alter or destroy nutrients. When juice is separated from the pulp (or fiber), most of the nutrients from these raw vegetables and fruits stay in the juice, while the pulp is expelled and discarded. Without the pulp, the nutrients can go directly to the blood stream and to the cellular level without the time and energy-consuming process of digestion. And because the pulp has been removed, we can consume a much larger quantity of nutrients than would be possible by eating that same food. For example, we can consume nutrients from a pound of raw carrots in minutes by drinking an 8-fluid-ounce glass of carrot juice.


Contrasting Juice Therapy with synthetic nutrients, Dr. Walker states, "One pint of carrot juice, daily, has more constructive body value than 25 pounds of calcium tablets." He notes the calcium in pasteurized milk "is just as inorganic as that used in making cement."


Medical science knows we need calcium to build strong bones, but we also know the inorganic calcium we put into our bodies can form kidney stones, gall stones, tumors and calcium deposits in joints, while leaving our bones deficient in calcium. This paradox could be explained if orthodox medical science would acknowledge the difference between inorganic calcium (which our bodies can't use) and organic calcium (found, for example, in raw carrots or green, leafy vegetables.)


Dr. Walker, a doctor of science, was among the first to differentiate between organic and inorganic minerals. He offered an example to explain this distinction simple enough for a six-year-old to understand. Dr. Walker noted the Earth is full of minerals, but the only source of organic minerals our bodies can assimilate is from plants. We know we can't eat a scoop of dirt and get nutrition from minerals in the earth. That's because these minerals are inorganic. The only means of turning inorganic minerals from the earth into organic minerals we can assimilate is through plants and their photosynthesis. Plants take in these dead, inorganic minerals through their roots and transform them into living, organic minerals we can use. Heat from cooking returns these minerals to their dead, inorganic form.


In their book, Living Health, Harvey and Marilyn Diamond emphasize: "It is physiologically impossible for your body to use an inorganic mineral... Anyone who knows biochemistry and physiology knows this to be true - chemically an organic mineral is the same as an inorganic one. But there the similarities cease" , because inorganic minerals have not been organically processed by plants.


Nutrients Don't Work Alone
Modern science is also learning more about the ways in which minerals, vitamins, amino acids and enzymes work together, and in relationship with other factors, ranging from pH (acidity and alkalinity) to stress. The more we know about nutrients, the more we realize they don't work on their own as isolated chemical compounds. Minerals in their natural form (in raw foods), are always combined with specific amino acids, and sometimes with vitamins, in a process known as chelation. Our bodies are designed to consume minerals in chelated form.


Amino acids and enzymes also have a vital working relationship. While amino acids (which make up protein) provide building material for our cells, enzymes are the life forces that do the building. Promoters of synthetic vitamins and processed foods don't talk much about enzymes, because they are found only in living organisms (including raw food). Enzymes are a vital element of nutrition. They are the catalyst for all chemical changes in our body, such as digestion of food, sending oxygen from the lungs to our blood and cells, body movement, synthesizing proteins from amino acids to make muscle, and even thinking. Vitamins and minerals work together to help these enzymes function, and are sometimes referred to as "co-enzymes", Those who depend solely on cooked food and synthetic vitamins for nutrition will be deficient in enzymes.


We also know some nutrients are necessary for the absorption of other nutrients, but modern science has just begun to discover the interrelationships that exist between these nutrients. So, our goal should be to ensure that our body has a sufficient, balanced supply of all necessary nutrients in natural form, rather than focusing on just one specific vitamin.

[Kiva Dancer]

A lot of things, I buy frozen and a lot I get fresh. I don't get canned that often.

I, too believe that a lot of frozen produce is better than canned and in some things, are better than fresh. I'm lucky enough to have a greengrocer that carries some local foods but the rest is imported from other places. I don't like my food travelling more than I do, so I get frozen where I can. Beans, refried beans, tomatoes, olives and my husband's chili sauce are the only canned items I get anymore. Everything else is from my deep-freeze unless I can get it at the produce place and I know it's local. Then, I'll get fresh.

Korn, I would be very interested to see that chart of yours.