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scotch&dry
Jun 6th, 2008, 01:07 PM
I was on the bus coming home from school. I'd shared a seat with this girl on a few other occasions when the bus was packed. I happened to mention not eating meat in passing (I can't even remember why now) and she seemed to get really annoyed, instantly, and completely abandoned our previous conversation to rant about how veganism is stupid and not needed and she'd lived on a farm her whole life and ... well you know how it goes. Anyway, here's what I remember of the conversation ... not word for word, obviously, but pretty close!

Her: What the hell made you want to do it anyway? :eek:
Me: Because I don't believe it's ethically justifyable to exploit animals.
Her: But we need it to survive.
Me: I'm alive, aren't I?
Her: .... Well ... if we didn't eat animals, they'd be over-populated.
Me: No, because if we didn't eat animals, we wouldn't breed them for the purpose or eating them and there'd be no over-population. :bigsmile2:
Her: Well ... let me think. :hmm:
Me: Besides, it's not like the animals are ours to own.:cool:
Her: You have a heap of pets though! :confused:
Me: I don't "own" my animals, they're part of my family. I love them.
Her: But you still control what they can do.
Me: It's the same with parents and their children.
Her: They eventually get free-will though.
Me: Not always. Special children don't.
Her: But that's not-
Me (I cut in loudly): Would you eat a special kid?!

... so the rest of the bus heard that last bit and laughed a bit, then I had to get off the bus. I don't usually let it get to me but this infuriated me - those arguments are so old, and it takes 10 minutes on Google (or in your own mind, for shit's sake!) to figure out why animal exploitation is wrong.

Anyway ... that's my rant. I don't know if people usually do this ... I'd do it in my blog, but not a lot of people who read it would understand.

saycheezly
Jun 6th, 2008, 01:13 PM
she sounds horrid, you seem smart.

you're amongst friends here...

scotch&dry
Jun 6th, 2008, 01:21 PM
Thank you :) I think that because I spend so much time listening to vegan podcasts and on the forums and reading books that I forget sometimes how awful omnivore-land is.
But it feels good to be exposed to people who are like-minded :)

saycheezly
Jun 6th, 2008, 01:24 PM
it's really hard - you can become lulled into a false sense of loveliness when your immediate circle of consciousness/ friends is vegan/animal rights... it hits u like a slap then when u meet thoughtless idiots like that... just remember - it's not your fault!

Ruby Rose
Jun 6th, 2008, 02:13 PM
But then, you have to have a little compassion for her - we've all come from a state of ignorance/choosing not to know to an awareness of what's ethical and compassionate. She's obviously been pretty heavily indoctrinated her whole life if she grew up on a meat farm - your views probably threaten her whole "world view".

saycheezly
Jun 6th, 2008, 02:23 PM
er ok - maybe i was a bit harsh?

Ruby Rose
Jun 6th, 2008, 04:58 PM
No - I didn't mean it like that! I was trying to see why she would have been so agressive towards scotch&dry and his/her choices. If you've raised her consciousness just a tiny chink, you've done a good thing! :)

scotch&dry
Jun 6th, 2008, 05:09 PM
I think understanding this girl's background is important, but it's not something I feel I need to take into account all the time, necessarily. It just gets on my nerves - on most vegans nerves - when we run into situations like this frequently.

I hope I didn't sound too harsh! :)

Shrapnel
Jun 7th, 2008, 08:30 AM
I think you handled yourself quite well, Scotch =) You had spot on answers to her questions, defeating her arguments.I don't think it was too harsh.

scotch&dry
Jun 7th, 2008, 10:15 AM
I think you handled yourself quite well, Scotch =) You had spot on answers to her questions, defeating her arguments.I don't think it was too harsh.

Thank you =) It was annoying and yet somewhat pleasing that she had to stop and think about how she could defend her meat eating.

Huddy
Jun 8th, 2008, 12:40 AM
Thank you =) It was annoying and yet somewhat pleasing that she had to stop and think about how she could defend her meat eating.
You tend to find that-they keep seeing if they can get you to slip, but they end up giving up when they run out of ideas.:bigsmile:
I think you handled it well. It does get annoying being constantly questioned. Funny how its never the other way around (us questioning omnis?:rolleyes:)

Wonderwoman
Jun 8th, 2008, 02:51 AM
Well done Scotch...from one Aussie to another! If nothing else, you would have made her think a little and presented her with the concept of 'ethical' living.

scotch&dry
Jun 8th, 2008, 08:32 AM
You tend to find that-they keep seeing if they can get you to slip, but they end up giving up when they run out of ideas.:bigsmile:
I think you handled it well. It does get annoying being constantly questioned. Funny how its never the other way around (us questioning omnis?:rolleyes:)

I know! If anything, I think it should be us doing the questioning. Something I find interesting is that meat and dairy consuption seems to be the middle ground, the default standpoint. I'd have thought veganism would be the "default" way of living.


Well done Scotch...from one Aussie to another! If nothing else, you would have made her think a little and presented her with the concept of 'ethical' living.

Thanks =D Another Aussie! *high five*
I don't know ... she seemed really stubbourn about it. Maybe she'll start thinking though - I hope so!

Shrapnel
Jun 8th, 2008, 10:41 AM
I know! If anything, I think it should be us doing the questioning. Something I find interesting is that meat and dairy consuption seems to be the middle ground, the default standpoint. I'd have thought veganism would be the "default" way of living.

That's actually a pretty good point. When questioned by omnis about why I don't eat animal products, my preferred reply (after answering, so as to not answer a question with a question) is to ask why they do. Often their answers show they just don't think about it. I was told once that people need to eat meat, which was pretty obviously not true since I'm still breathing, but the person who said it didn't really consider the validity of the belief. Most of the other justifications ("They don't feel pain," "They're meant to be used," or whatever) don't hold up to critical thought.

I think that acting and believing that veganism is normal and not some abberation will go a long way to changing opinions.

scotch&dry
Jun 8th, 2008, 11:48 AM
That's actually a pretty good point. When questioned by omnis about why I don't eat animal products, my preferred reply (after answering, so as to not answer a question with a question) is to ask why they do. Often their answers show they just don't think about it. I was told once that people need to eat meat, which was pretty obviously not true since I'm still breathing, but the person who said it didn't really consider the validity of the belief. Most of the other justifications ("They don't feel pain," "They're meant to be used," or whatever) don't hold up to critical thought.

I think that acting and believing that veganism is normal and not some abberation will go a long way to changing opinions.

Haha they wonder why "all those vegan hippies are on drugs!" or "why do vegans have to be so cynical!" ... probably because you're all dumbasses? :D I joke, of course.

I agree. I find it really hard to be respectful of people who use the arguments you mentioned, and all the other stupid ones, despite having come from that myself. I'm kinda of torn - I feel like that's such a hypocritical thing to feel. Then again, it didn't take anything more than a conversation with a few friends and a few minutes of online research for me to become vegetarian, and some of these people will be in the situation I was in with my friends and still continue to eat meat their entire lifes. I guess the way I feel is that if they climbed down off their high horse for a minute, they'd want to stop consuming animals too.

Blaaaah this was long and self centered - sorry :o What do you all think/feel about this - respect omni's?

JC
Jun 9th, 2008, 12:35 AM
one of my best friends keeps trying to argue with me about being vegan. the things she says are so, well, ignorant, that i can't bring myself to reply because it makes me so angry that saying what i really think would cause a big argument, and i don't want to fall out with her. but if she keeps dismissing my fundamental beliefs, i don't see how i can continue to be friends with her. she seems to think (and often tells me) that it's some kind of fad, and that if i continue with it, i won't reach my 30th birthday. i wish she'd just stop being so narrow-minded for 1 minute to at least just accept that i have strong views on this and not criticise them aaaaaall the time! we were looking for somewhere for lunch today on a shopping trip and i tried not to make an issue about it, saying i'd get something later and i'd sit with them while they ate in whetherspoons, but she just went all moody and said 'fine, we'll just go somewhere you want to go, like always'! i never ask them to go anywhere, but i'm not eating side salads or jacket potatoes every time i go out to eat!!! grrr, sorry, big rant, but i have no other veggie friends who understand what it's like :(

scotch&dry
Jun 9th, 2008, 12:56 PM
one of my best friends keeps trying to argue with me about being vegan. the things she says are so, well, ignorant, that i can't bring myself to reply because it makes me so angry that saying what i really think would cause a big argument, and i don't want to fall out with her. but if she keeps dismissing my fundamental beliefs, i don't see how i can continue to be friends with her. she seems to think (and often tells me) that it's some kind of fad, and that if i continue with it, i won't reach my 30th birthday. i wish she'd just stop being so narrow-minded for 1 minute to at least just accept that i have strong views on this and not criticise them aaaaaall the time! we were looking for somewhere for lunch today on a shopping trip and i tried not to make an issue about it, saying i'd get something later and i'd sit with them while they ate in whetherspoons, but she just went all moody and said 'fine, we'll just go somewhere you want to go, like always'! i never ask them to go anywhere, but i'm not eating side salads or jacket potatoes every time i go out to eat!!! grrr, sorry, big rant, but i have no other veggie friends who understand what it's like :(

JC, that really sucks :( I understand completely being angry and not wanting to show it to avoid conflict! I wish I could tell you something inspiring or uplifting. Perhaps you could try talking to her one-on-one about it - maybe tell her it's okay for her to believe what she wants to, but this is important and serious to you and you'd feel more comfortable if her opinions remained unsaid. It doesn't sound like you're pushing what you believe down her throat, so maybe if you point that out to her, she'll stop doing it to you?

Don't worry about having big rants - I doubt there's a single person on veganforum.com who hasn't had their share of rants :) *hugs*

Darky_
Jun 9th, 2008, 09:55 PM
I loved that question: Would you eat a special kid?

Doubt it. Or even mentally disabled or a dumb person....I mean we're all animals anyway right so what makes humans anymore special? These people get to me! Blegh!!

scotch&dry
Jun 10th, 2008, 10:14 AM
I loved that question: Would you eat a special kid?

Doubt it. Or even mentally disabled or a dumb person....I mean we're all animals anyway right so what makes humans anymore special? These people get to me! Blegh!!

She was quite appalled by it - I don't know why, if she isn't appalled by eating other animals.

I just want to add that I don't mean to offend anyone who knows a mentally disabled individual. "Special kid" isn't usually a term I use and I have so much respect for those who are and/or care for people with special needs in today's society.

rocketsmomma
Jun 11th, 2008, 02:49 AM
I think alot of people really don't think about it and that may make them defensive whe faced with a vegan, who is so knowledgable about every aspect of food etc... , honestly before I became vegan I always said and thought being a vegan was stupid, ridiculous and going overboard.....then I read material on it, did a ton of research and decided that really being vegan is the right way....so really i just didnt have the right info, and was just acting like i did (stupid, i know, but true...)

rocketsmomma
Jun 11th, 2008, 03:00 AM
Actually, I have a story about a confrontation witha murderer...oooops sorry I meant hunter/omni.....my husband and i just moved into the country and we have 17 1/2 acres of land that has been in his family for years, and while taking my dogs on a hike a few months ago i ran into a man who said he was our neighbor, and that even thogh he "knew it was stupid to ask, because he knew i'd say yes" he asked if he could hunt in our backyard woods. of course i said no (nicely but still NO) then he got a little irritated and said that he, his family and a ton of our neighborshave hunted on the property for generations. and i said that i was sorry but still no** well he got irritated and i said "you know what?: we dont eat animals in our house, we certainly arent going to allow them to be killed in our backyard", he finally got the message... .i did tell him that he could take walks with his young son on our property like he had been doing but NO HUNTING!!!! he grumbled off ( after telling me that many people still would anyways, to which i replied then please tell them that i will be calling the cops on them)and now were not very popular neighbors anymore!!!! talk about irritating! i tried so hard to be nice but sometimes enough is enough!

Shrapnel
Jun 11th, 2008, 07:19 AM
Actually, I have a story about a confrontation witha murderer...oooops sorry I meant hunter/omni.....my husband and i just moved into the country and we have 17 1/2 acres of land that has been in his family for years, and while taking my dogs on a hike a few months ago i ran into a man who said he was our neighbor, and that even thogh he "knew it was stupid to ask, because he knew i'd say yes" he asked if he could hunt in our backyard woods. of course i said no (nicely but still NO) then he got a little irritated and said that he, his family and a ton of our neighborshave hunted on the property for generations. and i said that i was sorry but still no** well he got irritated and i said "you know what?: we dont eat animals in our house, we certainly arent going to allow them to be killed in our backyard", he finally got the message... .i did tell him that he could take walks with his young son on our property like he had been doing but NO HUNTING!!!! he grumbled off ( after telling me that many people still would anyways, to which i replied then please tell them that i will be calling the cops on them)and now were not very popular neighbors anymore!!!! talk about irritating! i tried so hard to be nice but sometimes enough is enough!
Woah! Dude, that sucks. This guy's getting pissed at you because you're telling him that he can't kill on your property? Worst of all he just said that people would do it anyway. I hope that the threat to call the cops will keep the hunters off your property and keep the animals safe.

Shrapnel
Jun 11th, 2008, 07:26 AM
She was quite appalled by it - I don't know why, if she isn't appalled by eating other animals.

I just want to add that I don't mean to offend anyone who knows a mentally disabled individual. "Special kid" isn't usually a term I use and I have so much respect for those who are and/or care for people with special needs in today's society.
I think it was a good argument. Many times, omnis use the argument that other animals aren't as intelligent as humans to justify calling them inferior. And argument like this counters the argument that intelligence = moral worth. And just from personal experience, my first job was as a teacher's assistant in a special needs class in SoCal. Every student had some sort of mental disability. I would never consider them 'inferior' because of it, so why should other animals be refarded as inferior due to being less intelligent than humans (well, average adult humans, since some animals are more intelligent as very young humans)?

scotch&dry
Jun 11th, 2008, 11:03 AM
I think alot of people really don't think about it and that may make them defensive whe faced with a vegan, who is so knowledgable about every aspect of food etc... , honestly before I became vegan I always said and thought being a vegan was stupid, ridiculous and going overboard.....then I read material on it, did a ton of research and decided that really being vegan is the right way....so really i just didnt have the right info, and was just acting like i did (stupid, i know, but true...)

The same story with me =)
I agree with you too, you make a good point. Why else would they feel so strongly about the arguments they make - especially since those arguments are paper thin.

Haniska
Mar 7th, 2009, 03:05 PM
She was quite appalled by it - I don't know why, if she isn't appalled by eating other animals.

I just want to add that I don't mean to offend anyone who knows a mentally disabled individual. "Special kid" isn't usually a term I use and I have so much respect for those who are and/or care for people with special needs in today's society.

Thanks. That was pretty funny though, how it appalled her. If you had said "Would eat eat someone with an intellectual disability?" it would have possibly turned the conversation a whole 'nother way, beginning with her saying "A What?"
To add to your argument though: Depending on an individual, we don't let just everyone do everything. You cannot walk into a hospital and perform surgery.
Your analogy is pretty fair, at least in a forum where everyone respects animals. If you let your dog run wild he will probably go into the road. If you know for a fact that your dog won't go in the road you could let him out of the house for periods of time, then there would be other factors, like whether or not he would get in fights, get shot by a hunter, whatever.

I'm rambling, hope that made some sense.