PDA

View Full Version : Best argument for omnivorous lifestyle



Pages : 1 2 3 [4]

Zero
Aug 15th, 2008, 09:42 AM
good stuff, zero...first and foremost is respect for all life...but when someone admittedly cares nothing about the life of an animal and views it as their right to kill and eat any of them they wish...then convincing them to "care" is next to impossible. i am all for idealism (i'm vegan straightedge, hahaha).

I am straight edge too, so we share some more common ground there :)


given the choice between animals living and dying in factory farms to eventually be inhumanely slaughtered vs animals living free range and drug free and organic and humanely killed i am going to opt for the latter.

Free range is something of a "happy farm" myth, take free range chicken for example, Free range hens are still:

*Debeaked with a hot blade or laser
*Violently packed into crates and trucked hundreds of miles
*Slaughtered in the same facilities as battery hens and in the same manner
*Crammed into large overcrowded sheds and are unable to establish a pecking order

The truth is they don't have a better life in the so called "ethically raised" production methods, and of course they are still killed and used as a means to our ends.

http://www.peacefulprairie.org/freerange1.html


this argument isn't a blanket argument for herbivore vs omnivore but only for those people that will not accept that killing another being for sport, fashion or taste is inherently immoral, unjust and just plain wrong.

I see the difficulty with this, often many people accept the killing because they only understand it in principle (and incorrectly), you can show the horrific conditions and the subsequent horrific death to people and they will often refuse to look but at least you are opening the door, I guess what I am saying is don't focus on the treatment in isolation.

You are already doing a great job leading by example with your cruelty free life, you may not be able to change everyone, large social movements take time but I think our time is better spent explaining why using animals for our own purposes is wrong rather than focusing on the treatment of them as it does carry to potential to create feel good welfare reform which makes people feel better about their unethical food choices while doing nothing for the animals.

songlife
Aug 15th, 2008, 10:26 AM
.

Please take this as an encouragement to help me understand it - in another (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=491996&postcount=42) thread. ;)

ah yes I'm there now :) thank you.

Dr Box
Aug 15th, 2008, 10:47 AM
[quote=songlife;494787]I have had a couple people who told me that they tried to be "vegetarian" or vegan but that something is physically different between us because for some reason their system, unlike mine, cannot sustain itself without meat and other non-human animal products.

I have often wondered about this as I have heard similar arguments, where people insist that they simply can't manage on a non-animal based diet. For example I have a sister who has been an ethical vegetarian for many years. She tells me she has made two attempts to become vegan but has failed (within hours not days). She can't stand soya milk and can't wear non-leather shoes, so she tells me. Whilst I don't like to doubt what people say, I can't help wondering whether there is a psychological element to people's insistance that their bodies cannot cope without animal products, even where they are in emotional and intellectual agreement with veganism.

Is there any truth at all in the notion that some people, for purely physiological reasons, cannot be healthy on a vegan diet?

Korn
Aug 15th, 2008, 10:56 AM
She can't stand soya milk
Then don't drink it. Lots of us never do anyway. :)


and can't wear non-leather shoes
???

Zero
Aug 15th, 2008, 11:04 AM
She can't stand soya milk and can't wear non-leather shoes, so she tells me.

Generally this is just an excuse in my experience, because it is slightly more inconvenient.

You don't have to drink soy milk to be vegan, in fact you don't have to eat any soy at all if you don't want to.

Going vegan doesn't mean you have to suddenly throw away your leather shoes right away either, many people chose to wear them until they wear out and then take a little time to find non leather shoes that work for them, it took me a little time to find some I was happy with. I quite like:

www.alternativesoles.co.uk (http://www.alternativesoles.co.uk)
http://www.bboheme.com/
http://www.vegetarian-shoes.co.uk/

There are sometimes good non leather shoes in shops if a person takes the time to look, especially womens shoes.

Why exactly can't she wear leather shoes?

Going vegan is not so much about giving things up as it is about not wanting to contribute to the exploitative industries, perhaps your sister needs to see more reasons to go vegan (sorry if I am "preaching to the converted").

I would recomend reading Vegan Freak: Being Vegan in a non vegan world by Bob and Jenna Torres, it has a great guide to going vegan, the reasons why and it is a good read.

harpy
Aug 15th, 2008, 11:22 AM
Whilst I don't like to doubt what people say, I can't help wondering whether there is a psychological element to people's insistance that their bodies cannot cope without animal products, even where they are in emotional and intellectual agreement with veganism.


Hello. Yes, I think it can be a convenient get-out, because they think they ought to do without these things, but rather than admit that they simply don't want to, they find reasons why they "can't".

Not passing judgment on anyone in particular, mind :D And for all I know, there could be specific medical conditions that make it harder to be vegan.

BlackCats
Aug 15th, 2008, 11:51 AM
Some countries have a long history of mostly vegetarian diets like China and obviously they thrive on that diet but I do think that some people may not have that history and might not automatically thrive on a vegan diet so I'm not sure it might all be psychological. I have had people say that they felt ill and got lots of colds on a vegetarian diet (for example someone I knew from Romania) and they went back to eating meat and they felt much better and hardly ever get sick now.:confused: Of course I have no idea what her veggie diet consisted of, it might have been lots of dairy which encourages mucous and that might explain why she got more colds. Personally I have definitely felt better and healthier on a vegan diet though.

(I have had people say that they couldn't turn veggie because they hate the taste of soya milk. So many people seem to think they have to replace cow's milk with it.:rolleyes:)

Dr Box
Aug 15th, 2008, 11:53 AM
Generally this is just an excuse in my experience, because it is slightly more inconvenient.

You don't have to drink soy milk to be vegan, in fact you don't have to eat any soy at all if you don't want to.

Going vegan doesn't mean you have to suddenly throw away your leather shoes right away either, many people chose to wear them until they wear out and then take a little time to find non leather shoes that work for them, it took me a little time to find some I was happy with. I quite like:

www.alternativesoles.co.uk (http://www.alternativesoles.co.uk)
http://www.bboheme.com/
http://www.vegetarian-shoes.co.uk/

There are sometimes good non leather shoes in shops if a person takes the time to look, especially womens shoes.

Why exactly can't she wear leather shoes?

Going vegan is not so much about giving things up as it is about not wanting to contribute to the exploitative industries, perhaps your sister needs to see more reasons to go vegan (sorry if I am "preaching to the converted").

I would recomend reading Vegan Freak: Being Vegan in a non vegan world by Bob and Jenna Torres, it has a great guide to going vegan, the reasons why and it is a good read.



Hi Zero
Many thanks for the reply. I am a fairly new vegan myself (since January 2007) and haven't yet managed to track down any decent vegetarian shoes so thanks for the links. As far as my sister goes, she has highly dodgy feet with bunions, for years she faithfully wore non-leather shoes before deciding they were contributing to her painful feet. I am convinced there are decent animal-friendly solutions out there and will talk to her about this. I think she just needs another nudge in the right direction. I have lent her Skinny Bitch so hopefully she will give it another go.

I agree that people make excuses all the time. For me, I now regret how long it took to evolve from vegetarian to vegan, the transition was far easier than I imagined it would be. But the change in my thinking has crystallised, I now 'get it', and will never return to my old mindset.

And thanks for the book suggestion. I still have a little way to go in terms of my vegan lifestyle so will definitely look out for this.

songlife
Aug 15th, 2008, 01:28 PM
She can't stand soya milk

Well bajeeses! I can't either! That stuff is spleurgh! That's why I drink vanilla rice milk, or almond milk, or hemp milk, etc etc etc which all taste better than cow milk every did anyways... or no milk.

"can't stand soya milk" sounds to me like someone who hasn't been properly introduced to good vegan food and therefore is making a poorly informed judgement call.



Is there any truth at all in the notion that some people, for purely physiological reasons, cannot be healthy on a vegan diet?

I don't know. It must be psychological, because we're all phycially capable of surviving without meat. FACT.

Plus we all know that psychological can carry into physical. Maybe they have to change their psychological view of it first?

Hehe personallly I'd rather die than revert to non-veganism. I guess I'm a bit of an extremist (or at least I understand that I'm seen as that) but I don't think I have more right to live than 10 000 other innocent sentient beings... which is the actual ammount of sentient beings that would be tortured and murdered for my tainted sustenance if I was a non-vegan. Well once I subscribed to *that* psychology, there was no going back. Ooooo, I needs some sleeps.

Zero
Aug 15th, 2008, 01:33 PM
And thanks for the book suggestion. I still have a little way to go in terms of my vegan lifestyle so will definitely look out for this.

No problem :)

Everyone on this board is more than happy to answer any questions, and there are no silly questions so don't be afraid to ask.

The book is great for vegans and vegetarians who want to become vegan, if you are interested they also have a great podcast at www.veganfreakradio.com (http://www.veganfreakradio.com)

null_void
Aug 15th, 2008, 05:13 PM
So, I've been having some trouble with this one. I recently met someone who only has half a stomach. We actually talked a lot about the ethics of eating, and a claim was made that this person spent four hours per day eating, and that they needed foods that were both nutrient-dense and calorie-dense in order to survive. They also claimed that a plant-based diet wouldn't meet this requirement.

So I tried googling nutrient density, but the only information I had any luck finding were about foods that had low calorie counts and high nutrient counts. I know there are plenty of plant-based foods that provide plenty of calories (nuts, avocado, etc). I don't really know enough about meal planning to know if there's a good enough variety to sustain someone well if they eat little (volume-wise). My gut tells me that you could do it, but I'm having trouble finding much evidence one way or another.

Cherry
Aug 15th, 2008, 05:23 PM
Hmm. I think unless they tried to do it, you wouldn't really know.

I think this is an interesting question.

Personally, the only thing that I feel vaguely comfortable with when people try to justify their lifestyle is personal weakness! I can't argue with people who say they agree whole heartedly with what I'm doing but really can't do it themselves. Of course I don't believe them that they 'can't'- but it's more honest than people who throw out loads of ridiculous excuses for why eating meat is better.

harpy
Aug 15th, 2008, 05:25 PM
It might be possible (ETA person with incomplete stomach being vegan) - infants also need a nutrient-dense diet but they can be vegan if the parents know what to give them.

http://www.vegansociety.com/people/lifestyle/families/parenting/vegan_children/
http://www.scienzavegetariana.it/nutrizione/ADAinfants.pdf

However the high-fat diets that seem to be recommended for vegan infants might not be suitable for an adult.

I probably wouldn't give a person with half a stomach a bad time for not being vegan though :(

Cherry
Aug 15th, 2008, 05:27 PM
I don't think it's nice to give anyone a bad time for not being vegan :)

harpy
Aug 15th, 2008, 05:40 PM
I don't think it's nice to give anyone a bad time for not being vegan :)

No - can be fun sometimes though :devil::o

Ruby Rose
Aug 15th, 2008, 07:21 PM
My oh is doing so much better as a vegan with Crohn's/Collitis - he's careful about what he eats, and definitely there are times when too much fibre can make digestion very difficult - but his docs are impressed with his health, so I think the semi-stomached person hasn't really looked into it.