confused

[mchelle81]

ok so i received a boycott herbal essence pack yesturday.read through all the companys, knew most of them but then come accross pz cussons,thought hhmmm not heard of them then was in bath just and looked accross to my shower gel of original source it said on back pz cussons what is that about ???? i am confused :dizzy:

[seitan]

pz cussons have been around for a very long time.
why are you confused?

[Lisey_duck]

It means that Original Source itself isn't tested on animals (since the Vegan Society trademark it, I'm assuming that means ingredients as well as finished products) but that their parent company own a whole load of other brands, some of which they do test on animals. It is a confusing issue, not helped by companies wanting to cash in on having one 'natural' non-animal tested brand while not making any changes to their overall practice.

[mchelle81]

by me its the only vegan shampoo and shower stuff i can get i not found any others without havin to go online what do i do ?? carry on getting original source or not ?

[Maisiepaisie]

How strange. I was querying this myself in another thread just a few hours ago. So how come Original Source is ok for vegans to use even though its made by Cussons but The Body Shop isn't ok?

[Lisey_duck]

Because the different certifying organisations (BUAV, Vegan Society, Naturewatch and probably a few more that I've missed) have different standards of what's ok. Personally I wouldn't buy Original Source OR Body Shop. So it probably depends on which standard you choose to follow and whose list you use.
Michelle - have you got a Co-op supermarket anywhere near? Their bathroom stuff is certified by BUAV and most of it seems to be vegan. (Or 'no animal ingredients' as it says on the label) Otherwise, try health food stores - their stuff may cost more (I don't know how much original source costs) but is still probably cheaper than buying online and paying for postage. Plus you can smell it before buying.

[mchelle81]

well according to internet i have a co op about 6/7 miles away typical got sainsburys down road that used to be a co op

[Stu]

So if we stop buying products from companies who make other products which are tested on animals, does that mean we should stop buying houmous from Sainsbury's, since they also sell pork chops?

[Lisey_duck]

Yeah, my nearest decent Co-op is about that distance away - less hassle than it might be due to being able to get a bus there from right outside my house. If you can get to one, it is worth it because they have loads of cheap vegan toiletries. I manage it every couple of months and stockpile shampoo, toothpaste and shaving gel. Superdrug may also be worth a try - they do at least label the veganness or otherwise of their products. Or Lush might have something that appeals to you. (Personally I am fussy about what I wash my hair with and Co-op shampoo and conditioner are the only things that cut it in my price range. Combination of sensitive skin and hair that eats brushes for breakfast! You might be luckier.)

[twinkle]

I second Stu's point. If we're shopping at Co-op we're supporting a place that sells meat, and the products they sell which are not own brand may also be tested on animals. (I *do* shop at the Co-op, and other supermarkets, although I don't like some of the things they sell. It's a choice between burn out or compromise). The fact that this company tests on animals is bad, the fact they make a product that is vegan is good. Where you draw the line is up to you.

I say carry on buying Original Source, but write a letter to the parent company saying that is the only product you'll buy, when they start getting more of their stuff certified by the Vegan Society you'll buy that as well :)

[Mr Flibble]

I base it on how evil the company are and what percentage of the products they sell are vegan friendly. This generally means I shop in supermarkets, but boycott companies like P&G, Unilever etc.

[Maisiepaisie]

So is the Bodyshop more evil than Cussons, and if so, why? I would like to start buying from the Bodyshop again but would prefer to do so without guilt or wondering if I'll be frowned on by other vegans :undecided:

[Lisey_duck]

Yeah, my approach is pretty similar to Flibble's. It also comes down to what can be avoided - I don't have access to a completely vegan shop that sells vegetables and so on I can afford, so have to compromise on that issue. I *can* get shampoo and makeup that isn't made by a company that makes it into several different lists of top ten animal testers, so I avoid those.

And no, the Body Shop isn't more evil than Cussons. The reason it comes in for more slating is because it makes a bigger thing of its ethical credentials and tries to pretend it is the same business it was twenty years ago before selling out. Also, a lot of the criticism you see is of the BUAV for continuing to approve (and they do 'approve' products, while the Vegan Society just allows the use of a tradmark without actively endorsing the product) them using a logic that they wouldn't use on any other company. Whereas Original Source has always been kind of borderline so there isn't as much fuss about it.

[rianaelf]

I second Stu's point. If we're shopping at Co-op we're supporting a place that sells meat, and the products they sell which are not own brand may also be tested on animals. (I *do* shop at the Co-op, and other supermarkets, although I don't like some of the things they sell. It's a choice between burn out or compromise). The fact that this company tests on animals is bad, the fact they make a product that is vegan is good. Where you draw the line is up to you.

I say carry on buying Original Source, but write a letter to the parent company saying that is the only product you'll buy, when they start getting more of their stuff certified by the Vegan Society you'll buy that as well :)

Yeah, I do agree, it is all very well saying that the co-op don't test on animals but as you say they do sell meat!!!

And yeah it's a shame about the body shop.
It's not anything to do with the people who work there or the people who actually make the products that it got sold on to 'lofake because im not worth it' and in some ways it has to make them more aware of what the general public want having a company like the body shop on board.

The body shop paved the way for so many its a shame to totally quarantine it because the previous owner sold it on to lofake
ah once again what to do DILEMMA :confused::confused::confused:

[Gorilla]

Also, a lot of the criticism you see is of the BUAV for continuing to approve (and they do 'approve' products, while the Vegan Society just allows the use of a tradmark without actively endorsing the product) them using a logic that they wouldn't use on any other company.

are you sure the Vegan Society don't endorse the products that carry their trademark? i would've thought displaying their symbol was a pretty big advert to vegans that the product is approved.

[Lisey_duck]

Well, I always thought that, but am told otherwise by the people involved. The general idea is to build up a basic standard vegans can use in the first instance. Probably much the same as the 'Is it vegan' database/website - iirc that lists products according to the absence of animal ingredients, while including companies that might be dodgy in other ways.

The exact wording on the trademark website is "Permitted Wording: 'Registered with (or by) the Vegan Society'. The Vegan Society will not permit notices which state that it approves or which imply that it recommends a product."

[twinkle]

When I see the Vegan Society symbol on something I take it to mean that they have verified that the product is vegan.

[Gorilla]

thanks Lisey, i think that's very misleading. what's the point of allowing a big 'vegan' trademark that doesn't mean an endorsement of the product? :confused:

eta: i always thought it was more of a statement that the Vegan Society consider it an appropriate product for vegans to buy, indisputably.

[harpy]

As I understand it manufacturers can apply (and pay) to use the Vegan Society's sunflower trademark on products that fulfil certain criteria. You can see the criteria here:
http://www.vegansociety.com/downloads/Trademark-Pack.pdf

I don't think the ethics of the company are assessed and I'm not sure how practical it would be TBH. As we've seen from discussions here, there isn't really a consensus among vegans about which companies we should be using and not using.