Dr McDougall - The Fat Vegan

[Poison Ivy]

http://www.drmcdougall.com/misc/2008nl/dec/fat.htm

I have to say I'm a little stunned by this. I'm sure we all know that a vegan diet doesn't automatically mean skinny, but to say that:

' Fat vegans, however, have failed one important animal: themselves. Furthermore, their audiences of meat-eaters and animal-abusers may be so distracted by their appearance that they cannot hear the vital issues of animal rights and the environment; resulting in an unacknowledged setback for a fat vegan’s hard work for change.'

My god, it's hard enough keeping a positive notion about oneself when overweight without a Doctor basically saying that overweight people are too 'distracting' to be taken seriously!! Gee, thanks for that Doc!!

I understand the reasoning behind the article and that his weight loss guidelines are sensible and intelligent....but I think most people understand the concept behind weight loss, it's just the practice of doing it for whatever reason (psychological, depression, emotional overeating, etc etc) isn't always as simple as the theory. What about those who eat highly processed vegan food and yet remain skinny whilst eating unhealthily, why is there no mention of that? Is it because as a slim vegan they're not at risk of distracting people from the vegan message??

Anyway, enough of my waffle!

Thoughts??

[twinkle]

Well, I've had enough experience of being a fatso to know it's often viewed in a negative light and given that there's a sizeable subset of vegans who weigh (no pun intended) their health as well as animal wellbeing quite highly in their reasons for choosing to be vegan I'm not at all surprised at these comments.

On a personal level, I've never noticed being overweight as at all detrimental to people's perception of veganism, because the usual reaction seems that they wouldn't be able to think of anything animal-free that they would eat, and then I pat my belly and say "wasn't a problem for me!" and we all have a laugh :) (ish)

[Pob]

Yeah, most people think vegans are unhealthily skinny anyway.

It's better that people realise we come in all shapes and sizes. :thumbsup:

[petunia]

that is pretty bad...

but did you keep reading? the rest of the article was actually pretty good, somewhat inacurate i think, but interesting none the less.

[whalespace]

Try not to hit them where it hurts?

[Fuhzy]

Dumb article, but he has a point about people failing themselves. It's a struggle in life, just like smoking or drinking or gambling or shopping or any other vice. His message was obviously a positive one but at the same time, it was far to condescending. Also his assumption that thin is automatically better than fat is only partially correct. ALSO a low fat diet isn't the only way to go if you are a vegan. Plenty of people do fine on a 30-40% fat diet...

[twinkle]

that is pretty bad...

but did you keep reading? the rest of the article was actually pretty good, somewhat inacurate i think, but interesting none the less.

I skimmed it, frowning and muttering as I did so :) The whole "fat people don't eat vegetables and are scared of change" thing set my teeth on edge.

[Quantum Mechanic]

Yeah, that irritates me. I remember ever since a doctor made a certain comment about my weight when I was 13 (I wasn't THAT overweight, considering my height), and even though I've lost a fair bit of weight since then (still on the high side of normal according to various sources), I still feel like I'm really fat, I just can't seem to shake that self image of myself.

So I'm afraid to lose weight or start my daily exercising up again because then I'm afraid that I'll get too skinny and not see it, since after years of being mocked for my size I can't even tell that I am at a pretty healthy weight despite what everyone says. I still just can't believe it; I look at myself and I feel fat.

[Sarabi]

Heh. There are different kinds of eating issues. People think they're addicted to cheese, but I think they're just in denial. If they really wanted to go vegan, most of them would probably do it in a heartbeat if they had the material means (and most of those I talk to do). But I do feel I am addicted to food sometimes, although I don't think it's the same as being addicted to other things like cigarettes or alcohol in terms of withdrawal symptoms. I could stop without being upset if I am a) in the right setting, or b) in the right mindset. There is, however, the issue of actual hunger which hopefully is not an issue with veganism, but sometimes is. Consuming animal products is not a necessary bodily function, whereas consuming nutrients is.

Since I can't just design the perfect setting, I'm trying to develop the right mindset. I have been practicing eating meditation (http://www.deerparkmonastery.org/mindfulness-practice/eating-meditation) and the fifth mindfulness training (http://www.deerparkmonastery.org/mindfulness-practice/the-five-mindfulness-trainings) of Buddhism (mindful consumption). I've only been practicing for more or less a week, but so far they are helping. I have faith that if I keep practicing them I will heal. The monastery where I began these practices was rather full of people who had come to heal from their addictions like alcohol and cigarettes and had succeeded through deep observing of themselves. Of course we need to look after ourselves as well as other beings, but looking after other beings can actually help us to look after ourselves using the practice of mindfulness.

[BlackCats]

I can see what he is saying to an extent although it is quite patronising. I was quite slim when I first turned vegan but then I discovered all the vegan junk food I could have and now I am still in the healthy BMI 20-25 but only just under 25! :D

Vegans do come in all shapes and sizes though like Pob said. I think the omni people I know imagine all vegans to be pale and skinny and I haven't met hardly any that fit that stereotype at all.

"Jeff was not the picture of good health. He was very overweight with greasy skin and acne. "

I don't like it when people imply that overweight people have problem skin though, in my experience your weight has nothing to do with having good or bad skin. Also I know a friend who is a size 10 but smokes like a chimney and has all kinds of health troubles so health problems are not just for the overweight.

[Hemlock]

I also had a friend who weighed just 7 stone at 5 foot 10 and looked skeletal, it was genetic, she would eat huge fry ups every day and gorge on boxes of chocolate. She was forever down at Sainsburys and Waitrose buying the most fattening food on the planet. At 46 she had a massive heart attack from years of eating fatty food, now she is just content to be skinny and eat healthy food as a preference to being dead.

I do however feel I really let the vegan side down by being fat. I've had all the tests and at 46 all my results came back perfect, blood pressure, cholesterol, B12 etc. I only eat healthy whole foods no junk at all and don't like sweet stuff anyway, but I put on weight very easily and my portion sizes are way too big. I like food and I like a drink in moderation.

This year I am determined to slim down and exercise more.

[Ruby Rose]

I agree with you, Hemlock - I thought the article was basically ignorant and well, sizeist (if there's such a word). I'm not a moron. I'm very well-educated and informed about nutrition. I eat a huge variety of foods, and seldom eat junk foods or meat analogues. My weight issues have nothing to do with "living off potato chips and Coke". Far from it - my weight issues are more likely to be linked with having huge portions of the healthy foods I love.

[BlackCats]

I think as well not many people are vegan for their own health reasons more for animal rights reasons so this article probably wouldn't really be very effective.

Also I don't know if other people do this but whenever I'm out shopping and I see anything labelled vegan like a yummy cake or biscuits or a sandwich it is unusual, so I end up buying it just because it is so rare to see (but I had problems with my weight yo-yoing before I was vegan so it might just be me who does that.:o:D)

[harpy]

So judgmental :mad: If he did have to write about this he would have been better to focus on exercise, IMO, as there seems to be evidence that fitness is more important to health than size. However, I suppose telling people to eat low fat is his life's work/income source.

[cobweb]

i cannot stand the bloke, anyway, he's way out of order.

[horselesspaul]

The internets strikes again.
Who the fuq is he?

[Poison Ivy]

He's on the advisory board of the PCRM (http://www.pcrm.org/about/index.html) and here's a little more (http://www.drmcdougall.com/about.html) about the 'good' Dr himself...basically he describes himself on his website thusly -

'Physician and nutrition expert who teaches better health through vegetarian cuisine. John A. McDougall, MD. has been studying, writing and "speaking out" about the effects of nutrition on disease for over 30 years.'

[harpy]

I think there are some quite good things about him, e.g. that he gets persuades a lot of people to steer away from eating animal products, albeit for health reasons.

[Jiffy]

I think that to a degree he has a point but it works both ways.

My daughter gave birth to Grandson number two on Boxing Day, consequently my daughter is being seen by a health visitor. Trouble is the health vistor in question, who is supposed to be a healthcare professional, is spectacularly and morbidly obese. At a conservative estimate I'd say she was about 18 stone at a height of around 5' 3".

The very idea of taking advice, including dietary advice from such a person is pretty hard to swallow, if you'll excuse the pun.

Going back a good few years my wife's parents used to go to a GP who not only smoked but offered you a fag as well. The mind boggles.

[Gorilla]

there seems to be a resurgence in people thinking that veg*ns are all overweight rather than skinny, i saw a reader's comment in a newspaper that 'vegetarians are all fat because they don't have five stomachs to digest all the plant matter they eat' :confused:


"Jeff was not the picture of good health. He was very overweight with greasy skin and acne. "

i'd like to add that as well as his comments being sizeist, having acne isn't a sign of overall bad health either - i have suffered severe acne due to a hormonal disorder which has nothing to with my diet or general health levels. so i think i'm going to ignore this doctor's 'advice'. :hmm:

[harpy]

Going back a good few years my wife's parents used to go to a GP who not only smoked but offered you a fag as well. The mind boggles.

:eek: not heard that one before.

Congrats on grandson number 2. I expect he will turn out a fine bouncing boy if that health visitor has anything to do with it :D

[Zero]

The vegan "lean" foods guide he points out is elementary, we all know that lot's of oils and soy cheeze isn't good for us :rolleyes:

You could apply those rules to anyone's diet. For example just replace the vegan options with typical omni products and the same advice would apply to an omni.

I guess one thing this does is prove that theres loads of tasty vegan food out there! :)

[BlackCats]

having acne isn't a sign of overall bad health either - i have suffered severe acne due to a hormonal disorder which has nothing to with my diet or general health levels. so i think i'm going to ignore this doctor's 'advice'. :hmm:

Exactly, my brother had acne in his teens when he was very healthy and at a lean weight and was doing lots of exercise but it was just a hormonal thing.

I meant to say as well he advises cutting back on olive oil and I thought that was supposed to be a "good fat" for your body like avocados and nuts. If I was going to take healthy eating advice I would probably follow someone like Gillian McKeith.

[Jiffy]

:eek: not heard that one before.

Congrats on grandson number 2. I expect he will turn out a fine bouncing boy if that health visitor has anything to do with it :D

As it happens despite feeding well he isn't gaining weight, but his brother had a slow and worrying start as well. Nowadays he's a fine figure of a man, sorry toddler.

I only wish my daughter would see the light, sadly they are being raised as lacto ovo vegetarians.

Sorry going way off topic. Carry on :)

[Laura-Louise]

I also think that being a bit overweight and vegan is probably more of a GOOD thing than bad - I certainly can't see how it would be "distracting", that's kind of offensive?! How about ugly vegans (hypothetically speaking of course as we are all beautiful) would they be distracting too? Like someone else said, everyone thinks vegans are skinny and sickly looking things anyway, it's good we can show them we're not all the same.

I worry more about being slim, not even skinny, and telling people I'm vegan, coz they give me that look as if to say, oh right, that's why! It makes me want to wear a t-shirt which says, the reason I am slim is coz I go to the gym every day and eat healthily, not because I am vegan!!

It's all rhubarb anyway.