Slaughterhouse vs. strawberry harvest: Can plants feel pain?

[feline01]

I just read her response Gert and it summed up my feelings perfectly. I particularly liked this bit:

"Meat eaters often like to goad vegans with "the plant question." It is a convenient way to deflect attention and guilt about their own violent eating habits and transfer the focus onto the person who has chosen a more peaceful, if less conventional, path. By putting the vegan on the defensive, meat eaters can feel less pressure to justify their own indefensible behavior."

[PinkFluffyCloud]

What amazes me is the thought that some Meat-eaters think that they can 'confuse' a Vegan by asking about plants, when most Vegans I have come across are among the best-read, most well-informed, and deep-thinking individuals one could ever wish to meet, and do not take decisions lightly.

[gertvegan]

Broccoli vs. Animals (http://www.vegetus.org/essay/plants.htm) is also worth a little read. I'm sure it was posted before on another thread.

[negavert]

I get tired of people referencing The Secret Life of Plants; usually they don't even know the name and word of it comes from a long line of conjecture and the info they end up getting is similar to what one gets from a game of telephone.
It is important to know that the experiment has never been recreated and its surrounding science and the authors have been thoroughly discredited. That is why there have been no other studies about it since 1973.

[TheFirstBus]

My personal explanation of Veganism has changed. Its more complecated than just not wanting to kill things, plants don't feel pain animals do. Use the plants don't feel pain thing, some omnis have argued with me but then you just bring up that fact that you consume alot less than the animals going to feed masses, So your still reducing suffering.

[Korn]

It's interesting to see that some non-vegans consider eating an apple 'murder' (when they discuss with vegans).... but have you ever heard someone say that they'll go and kill an apple if they are about to pick one from an apple tree?

[eve]

I've heard a vegan say: "I could murder a choc-chip cookie" right now! :)

[Roxy]

LOL - was that the same person that said "What am I? A Chocolate Chip?"

[PinkFluffyCloud]

HeHe - my son (7), once asked me to explain Veganism (as opposed to Vegetarianism, the way he's been brought up). When I had finished, I added............."so it's better for the animals." (knowing how much he loves animals). :)
He turned to me with a straight face, and said "Yeah, just not so good for the plants."
Sheesh, what can you do? :rolleyes:

[Geoff]

I've heard a vegan say: "I could murder a choc-chip cookie" right now! :)

I was biting the heads off jelly babies on the train once and caught someone giving me a very strange look! :)

[PinkFluffyCloud]

You sure they were *jelly* babies?

[cowpie]

Don't you just hate idiots who say things like that.....they don't even deserve an answer....

[kriz]

Or do you know any good articles which tackle this effectively?......

[MzNatural]

Here is a good post about plants (http://veganforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=24993&postcount=23) taken from this thread (http://veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2277&highlight=killing+plants) .

[kriz]

Thank you, mznatural! :)

[MzNatural]

YW
Here is Jo Stepaniak's (http://www.vegsource.com/jo/qa/qaplants.htm) reply.

Here are some facts about fish (http://veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1574&highlight=fish+memory) and an article (http://www.thenazareneway.com/vegetarian/fish_have_feelings.htm).

[Korn]

Hi Kriz, I looked at the site (I don't know why I still can't resist arguing with people who insist that we should eat fish.... :).



Read "The Secret Life of Plants". Lettuce screams when you eat it, it just screams on a frequency you can't hear, so to speak....
I have read 'The Secret Life of Plants', but being a little naive, my feeling is that there is a meaning to everything - at least most of the time. For example, if lettuce scream, why does it scream on a frequency I can't hear? I would hear the scream of an animal if I killed it, and I would hear the suffering sounds I'd made if I'd starve myself to death to save the life of plants. I have to follow MY feelings, and in my world, 'killing' a lettuce feels very different from killing an animal.

In another thread (http://veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2504) on a similar same topic, someone wrote 'Either way, you are choosing to end a life, a life you have valued as less than yours.' The reply was: "For almost everybody [...] dividing an apple in two would feel very different from dividing an alive squirrel in two. Imagine that you have a knife in your hand, and on the floor beneath you, there is a rabbit and a carrot (you don't know any of them, don't have any 'emotional bonds' to any of them). If you loose the knife, wouldn't you instinctively hope/feel that it's better if the knife would hit the carrot instead of the rabbit? Or don't you care? Don't you feel that the 'life' of the carrot is 'less important', to use your own terms, than the life of the rabbit?"

Animals/humans, fish and birds have a lot in common. We have eyes, we can move freely around, have parents, and the pain we feel and express doesn't need electronic equipment to be recognized.

Humans don't need to kill animals, birds of fish to survive; we could possibly avoid killing plants, but then we would kill ourselves.



And there's an almost equally coherent argument to the effect that some animals -- fish, for example -- are NOT self-aware.

The question isn't if the fish is self-aware, it is (among other things) if it feels pain and if it 'wants to' become food.

* We don't need to eat fish
* The fish doesn't want to be eaten
* It's polluted by the sea it lives in
* It feels pain
* Meat/fish eaters eat what they eat due to habits from early childhood. Old habits are sometimes (but not always) hard to get rid of.

Re. fish and pain, there are lots of links to be found on internet:


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2983045.stm
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3673
http://members.iinet.net.au/~rabbit/fish.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/enviro/EnviroRepublish_844965.htm
http://arcnews.redblackandgreen.net/articles/fish.htm
http://www.animal-lib.org.au/lists/fish/fish.shtml
http://www.fishinghurts.com/FishFeelPain.asp

As we know, some people will say that fish can't feel pain, but these people can't deny that any fish in the ocean will try hard not to become food, or that we simply don't need fish to survive... And: if there is a 50/50 percent chance that fish do feel pain, why do they choose to trust the 50% that represents the least challenge to their old habits? We all know the answer.


I will cheerfully murder a fish and eat it raw right off the deck of the boat. And hang me if I can see any reason not to.

Reason not to eat fish? The point is that there is no good reason to eat it!


You can't survive in this world without killing and eating something. It's interesting that meat/fish eaters who describes picking a banana as 'killing a banana', often do agree that there should be laws protecting animals from really bad treatment/abuse... it's like they think 'It's OK to kill an animal, and harm it, but it's not OK to harm it too much'... But they never suggest any laws protecting bananas from being abused! I don't know if 'hamlet279' is eating frogs, but he is using frogs as an example, and I wonder what he would choose if he got stuck behind locked doors with some frogs and some fruit/vegetables. What would he eat first? What would feel about 'killing' a fig compared with killing a frog? I believe I know the answer. He says that 'You can't survive in this world without killing and eating something', but the need to eat isn't what the discussion is about, is it? It's about killing/harming, and both from an emotional and intellectual point of view, I believe that most veggies AND meat eaters will agree that picking a plant doesn't feel the same as killing an animal, bird or fish. And even if it did, why not stick to eat something that seems to be OK with being eaten?

In 9 out of 10 cases, such discussions don't lead anywhere. I don't even think the brain/mind/good arguments are important when people decide to drop animal products. If these people would have known how extremely tasteful and varied plant based food is, their only 'argument' ("I like the taste of fish/animals!") would loose its value in a split second, and their brains would find it much easier finding good arguments pro going vegan.

If these people really consider plucking a fruit 'killing' or 'murder', the only 'logical' alternative (if they are against killing) would be killing themselves. But wait, that's not 'logical' either...

I strongly believe that these people both understand and feel the difference between 'killing' a plant and killing for example a dog, and that it all has to do with habits, a learned kind of insensitivity, and illusions based on what they 'know' vs. what/who they don't 'know'. They wouldn't eat their own dog, because they 'know it' and love it, and maybe they wouldn't eat dogs at all, because they know and love dogs. They have less trouble eating animals they don't know or see. Even if a lamb and a dog are rather similar beings in many ways, they are OK with eating lambs. Fish is maybe the most 'easy' living being to eat (for them), because we/they normally don't see it; fish live in a different world than us - under the sea.

It's easier for Americans to bomb a building in Iraq if it might house some terrorists than it would be to bomb a building in Boston, the Iraqi are further away, and it's 'easier' to kill someone, innocent or not, that they don't know: they know Americans, therefore, US civilians are more important to them than Iraqi civilians. But for person a from Iraq, loosing a family member is as painful as it is for everybody else. The distance is creating an illusion. Animals, and especially fish, are 'far away'... .

I bet that if 'hamlet279' would be working with, say, training a dolphin or for some other reason spend a week with one, he wouldn't 'cheerfully murder and eat it raw right off the deck of the boat' afterwards. Or would he? Ask! ;)

Many other strong animals have proven that it's fully possible to survive well without eating fish or other animals. They're not even interested in trying. It's true that some animals kill to survive, but I really wonder what it is that makes hamlet279 identify with these animals, and not the plant eating ones. Maybe he has got sharp claws? Check out his teeth! :)

[Korn]

You're welcome, Kriz...

Just don't forget that in many cases, when people (fish/meat eaters) express concern for the emotional life of a plant, the truth is they really don't care. Because - if they did, they would eat vegan food: by eating animals they consume a lot more plants - indirectly... you know, grass etc., and thereby cause a lot more plant 'killing' than if they would eat plants only. So don't be too optimistic! :)

[feline01]

You're right Korn, I've wasted too much time being vegan-baited that is, people coming up with ludicrous arguments as to why it is bad to be vegan. I've given up, I'll gladly talk to someone who is open-minded about veganism/AR but I won't waste my breathe on someone who wants to debate the difference between an apple and a squirrel.

[Mystic]

I heard of a vegan family, who wont eat tomatoes coz they feel pain or something. I thought it was rediculous.

[kriz]

Banana- lots of crazy families out there!!! LOL. :D Let's have the meat eaters argue with them instead!!!

[phillip888]

If someone informs me about slave labor in China, you wouldn't find me trying to attack it as an argument and start undermining the "messenger".

Well then, you've never had a discussion with a GOP puppet have you? Because they will argue that a citizen of chinas life is less valuable and acceptable to exploit and enslave.

Seriously though, they really are not interested in even a rational argument when they bring up plants feelings. Their intent is infinite regression (well if this than that, etc...) to continue denial. Defining lives as equal or lesser is a 'might makes right' mentality. The whole point of veganism is that a life doesn't have to be rated and weighed to be allowed to live. You have to discuss things on that level and hope they are intellectually capable of comprehending your view as well as emotionally. A person without empathy can not be swayed, as compassion is based on empathy (yes there are many people with no empathy, as there are multiple institutions that utilize fairly sophisticated tactics to create a very anti-empathic indoctrination, for example the GOP, most religion, and corporate 'training', even parents do it to their children (my own being a clear example)).


The reason I eat plants, fungus, and microorganisms is because they are cellular growth without any form of awareness. It's easy to discuss on a scientific level. If the growth patterns change on a plant imply sentience (the fundamental reason for veganism is to not cause pain and suffering in those that can perceive it), then you can berate them for abusing their keyboard, as it changes size based on the room temperature and light level and therefore must be a living feeling entity, then dismiss your own absurd keyboard argument as delusional and absurd. Not that your opponent will often stick to rational thought, as that would guarantee their failure to 'win' the discussion. No it's no different than arguing the welfare of invisible clones of santa clause. In the case of 'plants have feelings' proponents their delusion takes precedence over all else, and their mind will generate any reality necessary to create a secure basis for their argument.

[John]

I'll tell you what, if you are arguing with an omni about plants having the same capacity for pain as an animal, that omni is secretly laughing his ass off at you for being foolish enough to argue the topic. I guarantee it.

[kriz]

You're right- argument about nothing at all.

[John]

It's a distraction technique to make the vegan waste time and energy on a topic which has no bearing on the topic of animal suffering.