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Tigerlily
Mar 28th, 2006, 04:09 AM
Maybe I could pay someone to go dumpster diving for me??

Would that not be freeganism then? :confused:

Haniska
Mar 28th, 2006, 04:12 AM
[quote=Cairidh]When I was 4 I started helping my Grandpa in the garden. The first thing he let me do was plant seeds and bulbs. And then I'd water them and nurture them. So far so good. But then when they grew into vegetables, he wanted me to me pull them up!!!!!!!!! And I couldn't. No way. So then I knew that vegetables were dead plants, and when I was offered them at dinner time I was horrified and wouldn't eat them. I'd pull my face in horror at the vegetables and then sit and eat a plate of mince and mash because I didn't know that mince is a cow (I'm not very bright!) and mash is a plant.
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I had delusions as a child that meat was made in the same fashion that bread was- from flour. Flour of course came from the grocery store. What really shows you how bright I was was that my dad hunts and I would help him when he came home (I won't go into any detail here). I'm thinking that I was hugely in denial because I just Can't be that unobservant.
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So I ate just fruit. I could have eaten nuts and the fruit-seeds, I didn't think there was anything wrong with this. But I didn't. I scooped out the seeds from tomatoes and cucumber and sucked, not chewed, berries so the seeds would leave my body in tact.I knew this wasn't logical or rational - I didn't think there was anything wrong with eating plant seeds, they were never intended to ALL grow into plants - it's like a male humans seeds. They're not a proper living thing, they're just seeds. But I didn't like to eat them.This was quite different from me being upset about eating plants however.
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I have this same thing, even as I am picking them out I ask myself "What are you doing? If you actually planted these soon you would run out of room for them, and certainly the city dump is no place for seeds." I've stealed myself against these feelings largely, but when I am in the country I try to throw them outside.

When I was little my mum was always wanting me to send my teddy bears to orphans in Romania - and I couldn't do it because I felt sorry for the teddy bears being sent into those awful conditions. I knew this was ridiculous - teddy bears aren't alive, can't see their surroundings, don't have a clue what their living conditions are, can't think, can't feel. I knew all this. But it still upset me and I still felt sorry for them so I couldn't send them to Romania. And it was the same thing with eating seeds, even though I knew they weren't alive. This didn't extend to grains however as cereals are a much lower form of life than green plants and I didn't mind killing them, never mind their seeds.

Does having this example show you that these are just "feelings" and help you to eat more healthfully?

quote]

Cairidh
Mar 28th, 2006, 04:13 AM
Would that not be freeganism then? :confused:

Well if they weren't freegan themselves I'd be giving them money to spend on products that harm animals...
but if they were freegan themselves I think it would be ok!

indianvegan
Mar 28th, 2006, 04:22 AM
" Our desires are killing earth and environment so we should be able to draw a line between "desires" and "necessities" hence live simply so that others may live simply" --Gandhiji


Manish Jain

Cairidh
Mar 28th, 2006, 04:31 AM
I had delusions as a child that meat was made in the same fashion that bread was- from flour. Flour of course came from the grocery store. What really shows you how bright I was was that my dad hunts and I would help him when he came home (I won't go into any detail here). I'm thinking that I was hugely in denial because I just Can't be that unobservant.

Well fake meats are often made from wheat so it's not that silly....if you'd been born to vegan parents, you'd have been right :rolleyes:
Yes I think you, I and most meateaters must have huge cases of denial, because how can we not realise a chicken leg is a chicken's leg. :(
Maybe its so horrifying, our subconsciences deliberately shield us from it.


I have this same thing, even as I am picking them out I ask myself "What are you doing? If you actually planted these soon you would run out of room for them, and certainly the city dump is no place for seeds." I've stealed myself against these feelings largely, but when I am in the country I try to throw them outside.
I'm glad it's not just me :) I mean I know lots of other people like this exist but I've never come accross one before :)



Does having this example show you that these are just "feelings" and help you to eat more healthfully?
Yes. :)

Haniska
Mar 28th, 2006, 04:48 AM
:)

Cairidh
Mar 28th, 2006, 07:15 AM
I don't think I want to see the pics, they'll put me off fruit and I'll starve to death.

I'd never heard of flying foxes until you posted that article. I just went to a Kylie Minogue forum which I visit every day....and there was a thread about eating game meat, so I clicked on it...and somebody had written that they'd eaten flying fox and somebody else had posted pictures of flying foxes.....right where I couldn't miss them. What are the chances of that??????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :eek:
Somebody's trying to tell me something.
Don't eat bananas.
Starve.
Be Happy.

Tigerlily
Mar 28th, 2006, 12:22 PM
Well if they weren't freegan themselves I'd be giving them money to spend on products that harm animals...
but if they were freegan themselves I think it would be ok!

But I think the whole concept of freeganism is not to pay at all and do it yourself. I could be wrong though .

DancingWillow
Mar 28th, 2006, 04:28 PM
I never thought of it that way...I think that freeganism is a way of living, the purpose of which is to reduce the waste of good food, as well as the environmental consequences of wasting it (more landfill waste, etc). Imo, freeganism is about living off foods and products that you didn't pay for ("free"), but it doesn't matter if you went dumpster diving for yourself or someone else did for you. Interesting point about the if you're paying a non-freegan to dumpster dive...I guess in that case it wouldn't be freegan.

seviya
Apr 14th, 2006, 09:53 PM
I have to admit that the other day, I scooped out a beautiful little green onion from my mother's garden and could have cried. How silly is that. It's just that I'd watched it grow from a wee thing to a big thing and now here I was, about to cut it up and mix it with my noodles. I felt so bad!!! But what can you do.

I'm still kind of new to veganism, so my logic hasn't sorted itself out yet. I'm sure that one day I'll be able to see things as my mom does: she loves her garden, all her little vegetables, every single one, talks to them, babies them. And when it's time to eat them, or their fruit, she makes sure she does it in the best way possible, enjoying every little bit of nourishment it can give her, doesn't dream of crying over it, and leaves not a scrap.

We have to eat vegetables. It's how this hard wheel of life turns. Every day we have to make choices, balance out the harms, decide how much burden we wish to bear. Some days it's less, some days it's more. C'est la vie.

But all the same, poop.

Pilaf
Apr 15th, 2006, 12:32 AM
............... good grief. It's freaking plants. Of course they don't have feelings..they're not even level one life forms.

ravenfire
Apr 16th, 2006, 09:01 PM
I have this problem a lot and it's actually coming from people who believe it. I'm Pagan and a lot of my Pagan friends have read a book called "The Secret Life of Plants". According to the book, they did a study on plants and discovered that if you have the right equipment hooked up to the plants, you can hear them scream when they are cut. I've done some research and found that various people have tried to recreate this study with no success. But anytime I tell them this, they say it's just people who don't understand the spirits of the plants trying to recreate the experiment. This book seems to be law.

So now I've started focusing on the cruel nature of factory farms to get my point across. That way even if they do believe that plants can feel pain just like animals, they understand that the animals are put though an unnecissary amount of torture for our food where the plants are simply harvested and that's it.

Amy
Apr 18th, 2006, 02:30 AM
it's the much lesser of two evils.

anneoranna
May 3rd, 2006, 08:33 PM
When someone tells me something funny like that… I would just say plants are made for us to eat. If not then what else can we eat?… animals are obviously made with a WILL to live.. why would they cry, run, and know if someone was to kill them? If we pick a plant from a vine or tree it doesn’t cry for it’s life and know how to run away… so that’s my reason… although I believe everything has a soul, I also believe it’s created the way it is for a special a reason… that doesn't mean I pick plants for fun b/c I also believe they too have feelings.

Seaside
May 5th, 2006, 07:34 PM
Ok now im majorly confused.

help

http://www.uncoveror.com/plants.htm

http://www.department13designs.com/vegan.html

http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~andylei/plant_rights.html

i ask, as it is what mum shoved in my face. I didnt know what to say.
I copied this from the other thread, which is locked. :)
Ladyaprille, I don't want this to sound like I am disrespecting your mum, because I know you love her! I think that what goes on in her mind, and in the minds of all omnis who pull this "argument", is that when they are faced with vegan people, they feel extremely guilty. Not only do they feel guilty, they also feel outraged at the unfairness of their having to bear a guilty burden that you are free of, especially when to them, you are the sole cause of their guilt. So they look for any way they can to make you feel as bad about what you do as they do about what they do. A simpler solution would be for them to stop doing what makes them feel guilty, but that's too easy. And it would require them to admit that they are wrong, which is next to impossible for most people, and even more impossible, to admit that we are right!

If omnis were secure and content with omnism, and were completely convinced that there is nothing immoral about exploiting animals, they would not be engaging in this "oh yeah, well you are just as guilty as I am because you kill plants" argument. The whole concept behind trying to make us feel guilty about killing plants is an undeniable admission of guilt for killing animals on the part of the omni using the argument. Its not an "I'm right and you're wrong" argument, its more of a "So what if I am wrong, you are too" kind of thing.

I'm not trying to make your mum sound like a bad person. She just feels hurt in some way by your choice of lifestyle, and most people who feel hurt by someone can't resist lashing out in kind, even if the people who have hurt them are the people they love. There's not much you could say to her, just understand where it is coming from, and know that you do not have to concern yourself with these bogus claims.

Haniska
May 5th, 2006, 08:42 PM
Did anyone read the second link on the above post?
No offense to your mum either ladyaprille, but either she didn't read that second one, she is joking, or she has made herself hysterical with guilt and fear.

Haniska
May 5th, 2006, 08:47 PM
Not to mention the 3rd one as well.
The first link is interesting but none of them seem reference- able.

xwitchymagicx
May 6th, 2006, 03:09 AM
I was going to go fruitarian at least so I could stop harming plants so much but at the moment I think I'd starve. :confused: I dunno...I always feel a little guilty when walking on grass so...I guess I shouldn't think about it...but don't that make me like a meat eater trying not to think about it? Oh well...

Seaside
May 6th, 2006, 04:57 AM
...I always feel a little guilty when walking on grass so...I guess I shouldn't think about it...but don't that make me like a meat eater trying not to think about it? Oh well...
That observation is more profound than you might think witchy. I at least feel more able to come to terms with my eating of plants than I ever could with my eating of animals. If omnis could come to terms with killing animals instead of living in denial of it they wouldn't react to veganism with such irrational hostility.

Korn
May 6th, 2006, 07:34 AM
don't that make me like a meat eater trying not to think about it Meat (animals) make it clear to us, and always have, they they don't want to harmed, killed, beaten, eaten. Plants are created in a way that if that nervous tension that some people claim that they can measure, and others say that they can't.. IF that change in vibrations would be pain (we don't know if it is), and IF the plant would be able to feel that pain, I could see a similarity between killing and eating a dog trying to run away or defend it self when I tried to harm it, or howling with pain if someone would hurt it.

If you sit on a chair, the chair will vibrate differently, the material with have a different tension, and the temperature will change. Is this 'nerve tension' pain? If it is, can the chair feel it? Should we rather sit on the floor? Can the floor feel pain?

When it comes to harming/ethics/killing/pain I can't see any similarities between eating an animal and eating a plant.

Korn
May 6th, 2006, 07:38 AM
When it comes to harming/ethics/killing/pain I can't see any similarities between eating an animal and eating a plant. Except, of course, that if a human eat a plant eating animal, he is indirectly involved in 'killing' both plants and animals.

Xenius13
May 6th, 2006, 08:34 AM
There's a big difference between stimulus response and consciousness.

grant
May 8th, 2006, 09:44 AM
Even fruitarians can be questioned..is not plucking a pepper from the plant kinda like taking the egg from the chicken? Anyways guys..I was wondering on your thoughts and opinions.


I don't agree with this. A pepper is a fruit, it is the seed of a fruit that is designed to continue that species. If anything the pepper seed is akin to the egg of a chicken (if you consider plants and animals to be equals) The egg is not designed to be eaten, the fruit is.

chickendude
May 8th, 2006, 09:36 PM
Knowing the vast majority of us here to be vegan, I find it difficult that you so quickly justify the morality of eating plants. I would have just assumed that, knowing you openly protest the cruelties to animals, you would at least recognize the cruelties to plants. Regardless of whether or not a plant feels/registers pain, you have to admit that it has a life and a will to live it. An immobilized (yet sentient) man or woman would certainly not be regarded as food! He or she would have both the ability and the will to live, but would lack the functionalities to evade dangers. However, with a perfectly functional plant we feel we have the right to take away a life.

I'm not saying you stop eating vegetables, just recognize that consuming vegetables IS killing a living organism, a fairly complex one at that. However, I've found that a fruitarian diet isn't terribly healthy, therefore the next least unethical food source is plants, and that is how I justify eating plants. However, it does bother me that in order to live I must kill, but eating out of necessity and eating out of want are two separate things. Flesh is something one can desire, but not something one needs. However, plants (until more research is done into solely fruit-based diets) are a necessity to our survival.

A plant has a life, and who are we to take that away? It is the question the world will ask once it has converted to veganism.

satirecafe
Sep 3rd, 2006, 03:50 PM
"In an earlier stage of our development most human groups held to a tribal ethic. Members of the tribe were protected, but people of other tribes could be robbed or killed as one pleased. Gradually the circle of protection expanded, but as recently as 150 years ago we did not include blacks. So African human beings could be captured, shipped to America and sold. In Australia white settlers regarded Aborigines as a pest and hunted them down, much as kangaroos are hunted down today. Just as we have progressed beyond the blatantly racist ethic of the era of slavery and colonialism, so we must now progress beyond the speciesist ethic of the era of factory farming, of the use of animals as mere research tools, of whaling, seal hunting, kangaroo slaughter and the destruction of wilderness. We must take the final step in expanding the circle of ethics."

"If you look at the course of western history you'll see that we're slowly granting basic rights to everyone. A long time ago only kings had rights. Then rights were extended to property-owning white men. Then all men. Then women. Then children. Then the mentally retarded. Now we're agonizing over the extension of basic rights to homosexuals and animals. We need to finally accept that all sentient creatures are deserving of basic rights. "

After animals are finally given rights (in the very distant future), who will be next in the circle of ethics? the only things left will be plants, fungi, etc. do you think plants are sentient in any way? maybe they are just above our level of understanding? or maybe our science is still too crude to properly analyze the capabilities of plants?