Slaughterhouse vs. strawberry harvest: Can plants feel pain?

[Korn]

i feel so stupid and wonder if being a vegan is right if i cannot 100% back up my choices Would you be able to back up your choices 100% if you were a non-vegan? ;)

[Korn]

The best thing to say is 'if you're so worried about the welfare of plants, I'll do you a deal. You can watch a video of a slaughterhouse, and I'll watch a video of a strawberry harvest. Once we've watchted them we'll discuss our views further'

Inspired by that classic comment, I've changed the thread title (for the moment)...

[harpy]

i feel so stupid and wonder if being a vegan is right if i cannot 100% back up my choices

I don't think it's really possible to put the case for veganism properly in a one-liner (funny though some of the one-liners are). You would need a longish and serious conversation and most people who casually challenge you or take the p about it aren't in the market for that type of conversation.

It hasn't happened to me much recently but if someone tries to put me on the spot about veganism e.g. over a meal I usually ask them to talk to me about it later when we have more time and can concentrate. The ones who are just trying to pick an argument don't bother.


their confused look gave me enough time to get away

LOL! As you have identified, most of these people aren't actually concerned about the feeling of plants but are mentioning them in order to use an argument along the lines "you can't completely prevent suffering/destruction so there's no point in trying to prevent it at all". I think that argument is fairly easy to counter because most people would concede it's better to do less damage than more. And meat-eaters damage both animals and plants since the animals they eat have been fed on plants, etc.

[RedWellies]

Yes, that's what I think too, Harpy. I don't feel the need to justify my choices to people but I will answer questions if asked.

[Seaside]

Inspired by that classic comment, I've changed the thread title (for the moment)...
Then perhaps you would like to give credit where credit is due. ;)

I can't remember the thread its on, but to those who claim that plants feel pain, I told someone to say "Let's make a deal. If you promise to watch a video of what goes on in a slaughterhouse, I'll watch a video of a strawberry harvest." I remember a few folks liking that one. :o

[absentmindedfan]

Apologies Seaside, I couldn't remember who'd said it originally. Your genius lives on! :)

[satirecafe]

Plants might be able to feel, but there is no scientific evidence for it, so there is no reason why we should believe that they feel. It's just like UFOs, ghosts, creationism, big foot, the loch ness monster, etc etc. They might be real, but why should we believe that they are when there's no evidence?? Honestly, you might as well believe that a rock feels while you're at it.

[matt35mm]

Well, the argument I always give is that there is no natural reason for plants to feel pain in the same way that animals do. Plants might very well be able to feel the warmth of the sun in order to turn towards it, and this makes biological sense, but it would be completely useless for the plant to feel pain, as the plant would not be able to do anything about it.

Our reason for feeling pain is basically as a warning system, or to alert us to something that's wrong. If I touch something very hot, I feel a burning sensation as an alert to take my hand away from the hot thing. If my stomach or back hurts, that alerts me to something going on inside that perhaps I should get checked out.

Pain ultimately has been developed to help us avoid harm as much as possible. Pain itself is not the bad thing... pain is the hero messenger that tells us what we need to know in order to survive. This applies to humans and non-human animals, but not to plants, because feeling pain does not increase a plant's chances of survival.

From this, we can deduce that plants don't feel pain, although they might feel sensations that would be beneficial to them, such as the warmth of the sun, or thirst, and these sorts of things.

[Italhaya]

well, i don't know if your friends or the ppl you are mentionning are christians or at least believe in god. If they do, you can quote for them this scripture from the bible about what kind of diet god had originally designed for men. I have realised that quoting things from the bible when you have Xtian pple in front of you is helpful and they valid what you are saying.


And God said, "Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for food. And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is a living soul, I have given every green herb for food: and it was so." ~God, Genesis 1:29-30



Then if they are kind of spiritual ppl but not Xtians you can mention other religions like Taoism and Jainism


One should not injure, subjugate, enslave, torture, or kill any animal, living being, organism, or sentient being. This doctrine of nonviolence is immaculate, immutable, and eternal. Just as suffering is painful to you, in the same way it is painful, disquieting, and terrifying to all animals, living beings, organisms, and sentient beings.
Jainism. Acarangasutra


Buy captive animals and give them freedom.
How commendable is abstinence that dispenses with the butcher!
While walking be mindful of worms and ants.
Be cautious with fire and do not set mountain woods or forests ablaze.


Do not go into the mountain to catch birds in nets, nor to the water to
poison fishes and minnows.
Do not butcher the ox that plows your field.
Taoism. Tract of the Quiet Way

[milk~sucks]

somewhere i read that 'pain' is reacting under stress. so even if a plant cannot 'feel' in the same way we do it experiences 'pain'. but more plants are killed to eat animals that humans, so (hating myself saying this) something must die, and i'd raather a patch of grass died than a patch of grass and 10 cows

[Zero Cool]

It seems that anytime a debate rises over my lifestyle choice with an omnivorous friend, the very first thing they do is get defensive and yell " But you kill plants, their alive too!". While I mostly try to shrug it off, I have not yet been able to come up with a valid response to this point.


I usually tell people, "I'm not a vegan because I think animals shouldn't be killed. I'm a vegan because I think humans aren't meant to cosume animals. I do think that plants are alive, but don't think I'm wrong to eat them because thats what we were meant to eat in the first place." Sometimes I'll throw in a "its called the food chain, duh!" in a humorus manner.

They usually don't have any response to this.

[boga]

chickendude (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/member.php?u=3597)
http://www.veganforum.com/forums/images/icons/icon1.gif Re: "Plants have feelings too"
Knowing the vast majority of us here to be vegan, I find it difficult that you so quickly justify the morality of eating plants. I would have just assumed that, knowing you openly protest the cruelties to animals, you would at least recognize the cruelties to plants. Regardless of whether or not a plant feels/registers pain, you have to admit that it has a life and a will to live it. An immobilized (yet sentient) man or woman would certainly not be regarded as food! He or she would have both the ability and the will to live, but would lack the functionalities to evade dangers. However, with a perfectly functional plant we feel we have the right to take away a life.

I'm not saying you stop eating vegetables, just recognize that consuming vegetables IS killing a living organism, a fairly complex one at that. However, I've found that a fruitarian diet isn't terribly healthy, therefore the next least unethical food source is plants, and that is how I justify eating plants. However, it does bother me that in order to live I must kill, but eating out of necessity and eating out of want are two separate things. Flesh is something one can desire, but not something one needs. However, plants (until more research is done into solely fruit-based diets) are a necessity to our survival.

A plant has a life, and who are we to take that away? It is the question the world will ask once it has converted to veganism.
So, as i'm new to the forum, i started reading some old threads and this big got my attention.

Since the days i stopped eating meat, i always faced the same question that the creator of this thread and a lot of other people made. Reading the arguments of everyone, i think that one of the most corrects were this one that i quoted.

I think it's wrong to say that plants don't fell a thing just because they don't have a brain and a nervous system. They don't have the same that animals, human or not, have. But maybe they have one more superior and advanced that works in different aways... who knows??:confused:

Other thing that i read and think is wrong, is that some people said that the plants were made for us to eat them. I don't believe that anything were made in this world just to became food for other thing.

To answer that, i found another good argument:


Sometimes I'll throw in a "its called the food chain, duh!"The food chain is the more basic way to see that and how nature exists. We eat plants not because they were meant to be eaten, but because we need to survive, just like all the other living beings in this planet eats other living beans to survive. Thats how the food chain works.

Don't know if i'm saying something that is so basic that makes stupid or naive, but thats how the life in this planet exists.

Anyway, i just wanted to share my point of view.

Cheers

[Korn]

Knowing the vast majority of us here to be vegan, I find it difficult that you so quickly justify the morality of eating plants. I would have just assumed that, knowing you openly protest the cruelties to animals, you would at least recognize the cruelties to plants. Regardless of whether or not a plant feels/registers pain, you have to admit that it has a life and a will to live it.

With all due respect, I think the idea that eating plants has anything to do with 'killing' or 'cruelty' is something that is so unconvincing that it is only used by people who have a hard time finding arguments that can justify their meat eating. These people don't even support their own ideas, and if someone who was charged for having killed or injured a human would say 'But... plants have feelings too', the judge and the jury would only say 'Yeah, right'. Not even people who are charged for breaking laws about animal abuse are using this "argument"...




A plant has a life, and who are we to take that away? It is the question the world will ask once it has converted to veganism. In my personal experience, this is a question people rarely will ask, because they don't think it makes sense. They don't avoid eating plants themselves, they don't use 'plants have feelings too' as an excuse to harm or kill humans, and they can see and feel the clear difference between eating a plant and harming/killing an animal.

They wouldn't make their dog suffer and try to get away with by saying that plants have feelings to, and we harm plants, so why not harm animals. Even if animals would have feelings, it doesn't make sense to harm animals, because this would mean harming both an animal and the plants the animal had been 'cruel' to when being raised for food. Causing harm intentionally - or unintentionally - in one situation doesn't justify causing harm in another situation.



Maybe our teeth have feelings to, and feel pain when we eat? Maybe the soil have feelings, so we shouldn't walk? What if oxygen becomes sad when we breathe? :)

[Cattmogg]

Maybe our teeth have feelings to, and feel pain when we eat? Maybe the soil have feelings, so we shouldn't walk? What if oxygen becomes sad when we breathe? :)

Lol. he,he. I really cant be arsed with this plants have feelings rubbish either.

[Fungus]

My answer to that is ..
"Well I just hate all the plants - eat them! ... and the animals kill the plants so I love them!" ;)

[boga]

With all due respect, I think the idea that eating plants has anything to do with 'killing' or 'cruelty' is something that is so unconvincing that it is only used by people who have a hard time finding arguments that can justify their meat eating. These people don't even support their own ideas, and if someone who was charged for having killed or injured a human would say 'But... plants have feelings too', the judge and the jury would only say 'Yeah, right'. Not even people who are charged for breaking laws about animal abuse are using this "argument"...

...

Maybe our teeth have feelings to, and feel pain when we eat? Maybe the soil have feelings, so we shouldn't walk? What if oxygen becomes sad when we breathe? :)

I'm sorry, but i have to disagree with your arguments.

First off, i think we both know that the plants are a living being, just like animals and we humans. And just because they are different from us, doesn't mean that they can't do or fell something.

If i follow your line or argument, i can say that dolphins can't communicate with each other, because they don't talk like you and me. But that's just wrong, because they can communicate, and in a way much better than ours: by telepathy!!:)

So, i think that just because our "great science" says that plants don't fell pain or something like that, it doesn't mean it's true.

And finally, about our teeth having feelings?:confused:

I don't know where you got this idea, but the teeth are a part of our body, so, if something is wrong with it, WE fell it, not the teeth, because it is a part of us.

The same thing happens with a tree. If i cut out a flower of it, the flower it self won't fell a thing. But if the tree can fell pain, it'll certainly fell something when you cut out it's flower.

But hey, don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that, just because of this, we all need to go back and start eating pork chops! :D
What i'm trying to say is that we vegans are supposed to have a different way on seeing the world and our Mother Earth. And i think that i'm not saying any bull***t, but just having my mind open for things that are different from what is told in school and by our great rocket scientists.

Cheers!

[Mahk]

My answer to that is ..
"Well I just hate all the plants - eat them! ... and the animals kill the plants so I love them!" ;)


You sound just like Woody Allen there. He said, "I'm not a vegetarian because I love animals, it's because I hate vegetables!"

----------------------------------------------------------------

Like rocks, fungus (not the VF member I just quoted), plastic, and bacteria; plants don't have feelings.


But that's just wrong, because they can communicate, and in a way much better than ours: by telepathy!! True, dolphins communicate at a very high cognitive level, but you are joking about the "telepathy" part, right?

[boga]

True, dolphins communicate at a very high cognitive level, but you are joking about the telepathy part, right?I'm not really joking. I know it is something that our great science couldn't tell yet, but once i watched on discovery channel an documentary about dolphins, where they told that dolphins indeed communicate with each other by telepathy, and they also said that dolphins aren't the only animals that could do that.

But, who knows??

Anyway, i said that just because i wanted to exemplify my point of view. I don't want to discuss about the communications of dolphins. Just want to say that, it's wrong to say that other living being can't do something just because they can't do the same way that we humans do.

[Qaxt]

Korn, to be fair, saying plants obviously have absolutely no feelings is the exact way many people feel about animals, and many people have thought thusly for a very long time (I won't say thousands, because I don't know any thousand-year-olds. ;) ). They are living, breathing (in a different way), eating (also in a different way) organisms, after all. No matter how vastly different they are from ourselves.

My position is that we should cause as little harm as possible, and by eating plants, we're not eating the animal (and all the plants the animal ate). Also, you don't actually eat many whole plants. If you eat an apple, the apple tree lives on. If you eat a chicken, the chicken doesn't. That being said, I'd like to eventually give up vegetables that you kill when you eat them, though I don't know how possible that would be. But I thought the same thing about veganism! :P


Sorry if I repeated a bunch of people. I wasn't motivated enough to read ten pages of replies. :P

[Mahk]

I'm not really joking. I know it is something that our great science couldn't tell yet, but once i watched on discovery channel an documentary about dolphins, where they told that dolphins indeed communicate with each other by telepathy, and they also said that dolphins aren't the only animals that could do that.

I think the important thing to note, however, is that the dolphins' telepathic abilities are not inherent to their species but rather were transfered through accelerated mind-control spiritual transformation brain waves sent by extra-terrestrials and angels. There are entire books devoted to the subject (http://books.google.com/books?id=FK1dZ2ZnVvEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=dolphins+ets+and+angels&sig=GZqSZA_epBxRvkcPBYkIuwynZwA) so we know it must be true.;)

What's even more astounding is the Russian military/government disclosure showing that secret inter-species telepathy experiments between dolphins and cats were conducted as early as the 1960's. This recently leaked video, shown on Fox News, clearly shows that the cat telepathically knows to move only when the dolphin moves:
_uc_LwfWpSM
I'm just bustin' on you, boga.:)

[boga]

I'm just bustin' on you, boga.:)

Yeah, i was thelepathic-thinking that you were! :D

[petunia]

mahk, is woody allen a vegetarian?

[Mahk]

Petunia, according to this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:American_vegetarians), yes.

[petunia]

hmmm, interesting.

[lunakitty0823]

I have heard the argument from people stating that "you're killing plants!"... but the big difference is that fruiting plants and seeding plants are meant to be eaten. You know this because they can continue to grow when their delicious tomatoes are plucked and when their fruits are harvested. It would be a rare sight to see an apple tree wither away from it's apples being harvested. In fact, seeding plants and pitted fruit trees, etc have always had things like beautifully scented, brightly colored and attractive fruits. It is the way plants and trees ensure their survival without us. Animals will eat the fruits and then further away, "deposit" the non-digested fruit seeds and pits in a little pile of their own homemade fertilizer, ensuring the possibility of the plants offspring growing. It's really that simple... and if you feel the need to contribute to this process, then grow your own garden or buy lots of veggies and fruits ensuring the farms that grow them will stay in business (I LOVE local farms!).
With that in mind, if you eat a pig, you will not grow another pig from what you ate. You'll just grow your waistline and quite possibly some other health problems from eating our animal friends. YUCK!

Healthy eating and veggie hugs!
Lunakitty