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leedsveg
Aug 5th, 2009, 11:39 AM
You have it, lv. All three, plus schools of course. The UK currently spends £38 billion annually on its military. Nice to know over £600 of tax per living body in the UK goes to your, ermm 'defence', eh?

I wonder what Northern Crock will end up costing the taxpayer? RBS? Lloyds? More like trillions than billions, I would think.

And as for PFIs, well, the taxpayer is being well-and-truly shafted for generations to come.

Hi DavidT

Apart from establishing who 'they' are, I'm not really sure, with respect, that your answer has very much to do with my question regarding your comment "It's clever the way they keep people from thinking about it, isn't it?" [regarding government subsidy of the milk/dairy industry]. Where are your examples of what 'they' have done/are doing?

leedsveg:)

DavidT
Aug 5th, 2009, 11:52 AM
If you want to find out about government subsidy of the milk/dairy industry, it's fairly easy, lv. Go ahead, be my guest! :smile:

leedsveg
Aug 5th, 2009, 06:47 PM
It's clever the way they keep people from thinking about it, isn't it?


If you want to find out about government subsidy of the milk/dairy industry, it's fairly easy, lv. Go ahead, be my guest! :smile:

Rather than me investigating the milk/dairy industry, I'd sooner you give me the evidence which enabled you to come out with your above statement ["It's clever the way they..." etc ]. In other words, you're the one coming out with a statement, but where is your evidence to back it up? Not saying you're wrong, just where is your evidence?

leedsveg:confused:

DavidT
Aug 6th, 2009, 01:02 PM
Looking through your posts (and your one thread) lv, you seem, for a vegan, to have several bees in your bonnet. Or are you one of those flies that goes anywhere except though an open window? :D

I’m not really interested in doing work for other people and I get the impression you’d be no different. There is no way I’m going to go through dozens of books and articles just because you’ve too much time on your hands. Try doing something yourself. It can be fun.

If you’re quite happy to believe that people are fully informed and information is easily and freely available and people are given the chance to make informed decisions based upon it, then go ahead.

Anyway, anything - absolutely anything - I put down here, you’re going to pick apart and sneer at - I know I’m not alone in realising that (oh - evidence required :o). It’s not worth it but there again, it’s a normal human reaction to swat at a fly; plus you’re seem to be one of those who seeks attention by apparently deflecting it from yourself, a version of trollism. You’ll also no doubt say what’s all this post got to do with veganism anyway, without stopping to answer your own question.

Why not do some thinking? Governments, industry are not going to release anything that puts them in any way in a bad light, you know this already. In industry, it’s disguised as commercial confidentiality. Monsanto (alright, they’re a bee in my bonnet) is one clear example where very little (good or bad) is released to the public and nothing detrimental is released even upon request. Anyone for rBST? They even go out of their way to make sure people who don’t even work for them are punished for simply telling the truth.

As regards government, you have the Freedom of Information StraitJacket, sorry, Act; the conditions are such that in addition to the effects of passive non-release of information, requests can be turned down for all sorts of nebulous reasoning, such as ‘international relations’, ‘defence, national security or public safety’, ‘the course of justice; commercial confidentiality or intellectual property rights’, ‘the confidentiality of the proceedings of public bodies’ ‘information that relates to the policy-making process (e.g. advice to Ministers and Ministerial letters)’ and so on. That just about covers anything, doesn’t it?

Presumably you know all about what the Skye bridge is costing you? Can you tell me what it costs you to insure nuclear facilities in the UK? How much will you pay to have the M25 widened? After you having bought a large part of the backing bank, RBS? Do you know how deliberately optimistic future nuclear power costs are? Do you know where GMOs are being tested in the UK? What are you paying for your Iraq invasion? What are you paying to for the current round of mass privatisation and compensation? Tell me all you know about tax havens like the Caymans etc. No, don't bother.

We could go further: the SOCPA, the Public Order Act, the Trade Union Act, the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act, the Protection from Harrassment Act, the 2000 Terrorism Act, the Anti-Terrorism, Crime and Security Act, the Anti-Social Behaviour Act, the Civil Contingencies Act, the Border Agency, the spurious use of byelaws, the red tape and regulations, anything to prevent a meeting of like minds (The Big Green Gathering, anyone?) are some of the more overt means of preventing information spread. There’s a proposal to allow GCHG to monitor any e-mail, website visit or phone call. We all know about GWB’s cronies' use of fear of non-existent threats, furthering the development of the bulk of Americans into zombie consumers. The UK seems to be going the same way.

What about newspapers? If there’s an example of guided, biased information, omitting details not conducive to the proprietor’s aims, it’s them. Go on, dispute it - but don’t forget give me some evidence. TV's a great distractor too; even the good old beeb tailors her cloth to suit the politicos' whims. And of course commercial tv is run by its advertisers.

Have a go at thinking of examples of what is not taught at schools.

A truly ironic thing is this: the most out-and-out sensible thing you could do is not reply. It would gain a percentage of respect. I’m getting bored with you now so that’s that. I've deliberately not looked anything up to try and keep a stream-of-conciousness-type answer because I didn't want to do any work for you.

Here's (http://www.johannhari.com/archive/article.php?id=1552) an only partially-related but very good article about drug company profits I read today.

And here's Joe Bageant (http://www.joebageant.com/joe/2009/07/the-bastards-never-die.html) for a very welcome un-American view of things American. Maybe you should e-mail him, asking for evidence.

leedsveg
Aug 6th, 2009, 03:09 PM
It's clever the way they keep people from thinking about it, isn't it?


Hi DavidT

Many thanks for your long response to my query. I just wondered what information you had, if any, to back up your above generalisation/assertion.

Anyway good wishes and thanks again for your response and for taking the time to read my posts and 1 x thread.

leedsveg:smile:

puca
Aug 16th, 2009, 03:20 PM
other than that i only know of Granovita UHT yogurts which Asda and Holland & Barrett used to sell but it's nasty stuff imo.
Granovita is rank :umm_ani:

Well for me, it'll be a good excuse to wean me off soy lattes when I'm waiting for a train (not sure if AMT even use Alpro).

Don't really have a whole lot to add to this thread... Whatever consumer choices we make, we are causing some damage to our fellow sentients and our planet.

I know companies like Coca Cola and Nestle have got bad rap for their alleged involvement with human rights abuses and Unilever (who Greenpeace campaigned against for their unsustainable use of palm oil), but at the same time there are so many things going on with what we consume, it is impossible to keep track with what we are doing.

Personally, I try to avoid products made by multinationals I hate and look for local options, or organic versions.

Organic does not guarentee that the workers involved in producing it were treated well.

Fairtrade Tshirts are usually only Fairtrade cotton and may have been made with unfair labour conditions.

Most banks invest in animal testing, fossil fuels, arms companies... And many of our 'local shops' use these banks, so if you pay for them, you may be indirectly investing in arms...

Blah, wait... This has probably already been said, if not on this thread, but on another.

Maybe I should read it all first. :satisfied:

leedsveg
Aug 16th, 2009, 06:10 PM
Maybe I should read it all first. :satisfied:

You make very good points.:thumbsup:

(I think if I re-read the thread, I'd get as frustrated as I did reading postings the first time round. :eek:)

leedsveg:):)

shockingfish
Aug 16th, 2009, 08:16 PM
As someone who has been a vegan for a fair few years - I am NOT going to be dropping Alpro! I remember the bad plamil milks that tasted like the dregs left over from some one rinsing their paint brush out or the even worse whitewave brand that was like white water with an aftertase that reminded me (for some reason) of 'old socks'; granorose's offering wasn't much better. I've tried them all oat, rice, hemp, ceral, almond, hazelnut, pea and even that tiger root stuff; you can't make me give up fresh Alpro. You can pry my Alpro chocolate milk from my cold dead hands! :)

everdream
Aug 16th, 2009, 08:40 PM
As someone who has been a vegan for a fair few years - I am NOT going to be dropping Alpro! I remember the bad plamil milks that tasted like the dregs left over from some one rinsing their paint brush out or the even worse whitewave brand that was like white water with an aftertase that reminded me (for some reason) of 'old socks'; granorose's offering wasn't much better. I've tried them all oat, rice, hemp, ceral, almond, hazelnut, pea and even that tiger root stuff; you can't make me give up fresh Alpro. You can pry my Alpro chocolate milk from my cold dead hands! :)
I whole heartedly recommend the tesco's brand of fresh soymilk. I drink the unsweetened, but the sweetened is also very good. (and cheaper than Alpro :p)

Ms_Derious
Aug 16th, 2009, 10:38 PM
I whole heartedly recommend the tesco's brand of fresh soymilk. I drink the unsweetened, but the sweetened is also very good. (and cheaper than Alpro :p)

I recently was lucky enough to receive a soy milk maker from a fellow forumite, but until then I was also a queen of the Tesco value unsweetened. I'm class me.

bradders
Aug 17th, 2009, 12:40 AM
I'll just add my little bit.
I buy Alpro if I haven't been to the big supermaket and bought what on the face of it is repackaged alpro (identical taste, colour, carton, and percentage of ingredients). Will I continue to? Yes. It is still a vegan product, it still excludes to the greatest degree that is possible and practical the use/ exploitation of animals and animal products. The company that may own it/ be about to own it have been and are involved in some pretty unpleasant stuff. That said the profits from this will likely stay as profits. Cash from pharma/ chemical goes ito r&d in these areas and into profits and the same for dairy, profits go into investment and into shareholder profits.
I buy my detergent etc from co-op who own agri land used for meat and dairy, I buy Pure Spread, owned by dairy and meat company, I travel by c2c train, they are owned by national express who promote leather seating amongst the franchise holders in the coach industry....

All these companies have something in common, they provide something I need/ want and are focussed purely on profit making.
This means that they wouldn't be doing what they do if it didn't make them money but it is doubtful that my vegan purchases are actually contributing to the harmful sides of their business. If anything they show them that these products are profitable and that there is interest in goods that don't harm animals.

chico
Aug 17th, 2009, 10:07 PM
Personally, I try to avoid products made by multinationals I hate and look for local options, or organic versions.

WHAT??? What did you just say? YOU HATE A MULTINATIONAL? prepare yourself to explain your sentence during the next 50 endless posts... :D

fiamma
Aug 17th, 2009, 10:25 PM
TBH I can't say I'm terribly shocked, I just see it as part of the evolution of the globalised world we live in. I like Alpro, but ic it becomes part of Nestle I will no doubt boycott it. Trying to boycott Unilever is a bit like trying to avoid products that have been made in China. Luckily there are various European and Italian companies which sell organic soya milk and I daresay I'll buy from them.

It is sad news though, if it's true. Boo. :mad:

leedsveg
Aug 18th, 2009, 07:03 AM
WHAT??? What did you just say? YOU HATE A MULTINATIONAL? prepare yourself to explain your sentence during the next 50 endless posts... :D

Oh no!:eek:


TBH I can't say I'm terribly shocked, I just see it as part of the evolution of the globalised world we live in. I like Alpro, but ic it becomes part of Nestle I will no doubt boycott it. Trying to boycott Unilever is a bit like trying to avoid products that have been made in China. Luckily there are various European and Italian companies which sell organic soya milk and I daresay I'll buy from them.

It is sad news though, if it's true. Boo. :mad:

I agree. I'll buy from somebody else.:)

leedsveg

vava
Dec 11th, 2010, 07:58 AM
I haven't been on this forum for a while - so good to see some of the sensible oldies contributing here - I have read this whole thread - so disappointing to see that a few spoilers have taken the time to be so rude to those who hold significant and similar views. **sigh** Waves to leeds veg, ms delirious and bradders.**

leedsveg
Dec 11th, 2010, 08:55 AM
Hi vava and welcome back!:thumbsup:

Yes it's a shame that some people have little respect for others, even for fellow vegans. The good news is that more recently and for whatever reason, the forum seems to be less confrontational and there's no apparent interest in carrying on petty feuds. Long may it continue.

Cheers!

leedsveg:D

vava
Dec 11th, 2010, 09:42 AM
prob just picked the wrong thread to read then! :D

leedsveg
Dec 11th, 2010, 12:31 PM
Hi vava

I could point you to threads with worse comments, both on this forum and elsewhere, but I'm sure it's best in Vegan Forum that we focus on positive, compassionate stuff, rather than getting dragged down into negativity.

Leedsveg:thumbsup:

vava
Dec 11th, 2010, 01:08 PM
Definitely with you there leedsveg!:cool:

emzy1985
Dec 14th, 2010, 03:54 PM
Hey vava!

So does anyone know who brought Alpro in the end then?

emzy1985
Dec 14th, 2010, 03:56 PM
You are having a laugh!!!!! I drink one cup of coffee a week with my friends at Costa and obviously have a soya latte with again is made with Alpro. Other than that I can live without Alpro because other brands do yoghurts and soya milk etc. Isn't Alpro owned by a dairy company anyway?

Lol! I wouldn't touch Costa with a barge pole now! It's funny how things change ay?

harpy
Dec 14th, 2010, 04:19 PM
So does anyone know who brought Alpro in the end then?

Dean Foods, according to these press releases http://corporate.alpro.com/en/press-corner.html http://www.deanfoods.com/our-company/news/press-release.aspx?StoryID=1304489

Never heard of them before but I've heard of Morningstar which seems to be one of their other brands.

vava
Dec 14th, 2010, 05:26 PM
Elo Emzy m'dear!

harpy
Dec 14th, 2010, 05:46 PM
Hello there vava - where's yer bin? Nice to "see" you anyway!

cobweb
Dec 15th, 2010, 10:14 AM
(*off topic*) yes, hi vava, how are you :)?