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Korn
May 9th, 2006, 07:27 PM
Please do. (Authoritarian covers a lot more than 'fascist' anyway.)

Russ
May 9th, 2006, 07:32 PM
Yes, I know. Many Conservatives could be considered authoritarian but would probably be repulsed by the idea of denying people their reproductive rights. Hence the term I used fits better.

But if the F-word causes offence here, fine, I will edit the post to say "authoritarian".

geysir111
May 13th, 2006, 11:40 AM
How would you enforce birth control? Drowning unwanted kids in paddy fields like China? (Edit: "AUTHORITARIAN".)

That you're point of view, to be honest I'm not for authoritarianism or something like that, despite the fact that I'm not for total anarchy. I've talmked about ethical birth control. Nobody want things that happen like in China. I'm vegan because of compassion and respect for innocents beings, and I wouldn't like any harm on unborn and born babies. So before doing anything, scientific research would have to be done. But I'm actually much more for a solution of informing people about overpopulation and encouraging them to have less children, with advertisment and public relations. But anyhow, I just thought that while talking together, I wouldn't promise on my soul that this solution is the very best one.


There is no Malthusian crisis on the horizon. To be honest I think Malthus's arguments were a little simple. There's enough food for everyone in the world right now, distribution is the problem, and we can trace that back to systems of exploitation, including but not limited to, capitalism.

Of course the problems doesn't come only from overpopulation, the root of the problem is a bad management of natural ressources on our planet and an inequitable allotment of food and resources.
Actually that's true I think but the Earth wouldn't be able to bear a few more millions of people without destroying much more animals inhabitat...


"Everybody has his own desire and means in his/her life so it's your choice, but I think you don't wanna take this responsability maybe because of your following reasons"

Agree on the first part, I wasn't advocating that anyone should tell anyone else when and if they can have kids or not; I would never even suggest such a horrible idea. Second part, no, it has nothing to do with my following reasons, I have absolutely no desire to have a child or children, it has always been that way and I think always will.

Ok, fair enough them, I respect your ideas so, my best friend also think that way and would prefer abortion than bearing a child. So, no worries, but I just found a bit pity that there is so less vegan who want children (amongst my acquaintances at least).


"and even if you believe there's no hope, then why are you vegan?"

I don't always believe there's no hope for this planet, just in those darker moments. As I said, it was the cynic in me talking. Even if there was no hope, as a matter of principle I feel it's my responsibility to fight against systems of exploitation. If the world ends tomorrow, I'm still going to try to alleviate as much suffering as I can today.

My ecological footprint was 1.2. Apparently if everyone lived like me we would need 1.0 planets.


I completely agree with you on that point.

And please remember, I'm not a kind of fascist vegan... maybe it does exist but I don't think it's fair to say that because you're for birth control, then you're fascist. Loads of ecologist are for birth control and I do prefer regulation than overpopulation and then dyings of hunger

Russ
May 13th, 2006, 11:48 AM
Before the edit, I didn't actually call you a fascist (and I don't think you are), I just kind of implied that the ideas of controlling reproduction rights remind me of those ideas. After the edit, I guess it looks a lot more like I said the former since I replaced it all with one word in caps lock. But that was cause I was kind of annoyed at being censored. Had to clear that up.

Russ
May 13th, 2006, 11:50 AM
Oh, and using education and information, I am with you there.

I'm just very sceptical of Malthus, who if I remember correctly argued that the poor should be left to die. Perhaps I was too harsh in earlier posts on this thread.

geysir111
May 13th, 2006, 11:57 AM
Oh, and using education and information, I am with you there.

I'm just very sceptical of Malthus, who if I remember correctly argued that the poor should be left to die. Perhaps I was too harsh in earlier posts on this thread.

No problems for your sayings... I know this is harsh to be censored...

I am for using education and information, but at a point, maybe in a couple of decades, I am for regulation for a period where people would be aware that it's gonne become illegal to have more than... let's say 2 or 3 children, or 1. And after, condamning people for having too much children, but when most of the population would be ready for that of course. It's like banning meat, you just can't do it right now without information... If it's done, the black mearket of meat will grow and cause much more suffering to animals.

PS: I'm thinking about opening a thread about "veganism in anarcho-capitalism" and one about "veganism but what about eating humans" (dead humans, not killing them for food lol)
What would you think about that?

Russ
May 13th, 2006, 12:00 PM
Haha, eating dead people ... well, there's a lot to consider here. I mean, people die a lot from illness, meaning they probably wouldn't make a healthy meal.

I guess if someone has given consent to being eaten after they die naturally, there's no ethical argument against it, but I'm not really sure about the health benefits of cannibalism.

Of course if you eat their brains, you can know what they know ...

abrennan
May 13th, 2006, 12:12 PM
I have never met anyone that I would care to eat

Blueshark
May 13th, 2006, 02:23 PM
Eating humans...a 'Modest Proposal' indeed :D

the_red_star
May 13th, 2006, 03:53 PM
I don't think it would catch on in the UK... Human steak with potatoes and veg - yuk, no doesn't tempt me at all.

Risker
May 13th, 2006, 04:21 PM
I don't think it would catch on in the UK... Human steak with potatoes and veg - yuk, no doesn't tempt me at all.

It's better with horseradish and mustard.

Russ
May 13th, 2006, 05:34 PM
Hey, we already have worse food.

Risker
May 13th, 2006, 05:42 PM
Hey, we already have worse food.

Brussel Sprouts?

Russ
May 13th, 2006, 05:43 PM
fish and chips in greasy newspaper. i mean really, what the hell is the deal with that. it just makes no sense.

Korn
Apr 1st, 2007, 12:32 PM
According to the study mentioned here (http://www.vrg.org/journal/vj2006issue4/vj2006issue4poll.htm), 1.4 % of the US population never eat meat, poultry, fish/seafood, dairy products/eggs. (It's unknown if these people eat honey). The US population is approx. 300 million, which means that according tho these numbers, 4.2 million people above 18 live on a vegan or near vegan diet.

estlander
Apr 1st, 2007, 02:20 PM
How MANY vegans does it take to change a light bulb?.---


answers please?? :)None, because vegans can't change anything.

Bhawhahaha.

And on-topic - about Estonia - There might be about 100 to 300 vegans here in about 1.4 million people...
And maybe 1% of population being "vegetarians" (people who eat fish usually still describe themselves as "vegetarians")..

Mahk
Apr 5th, 2007, 05:10 AM
Korn, I see a problem in that study's methodology you link to. Unlike us, average people don't read the ingredients list of everything they eat. They don't know what they eat! They also don't interrogate ever food preparer that serves them (friend, family, or restaurant). For example, I'm thinking of the incredible 23.4% in that study who claim to "never" eat honey! What they really mean is they never reach for the honey container and use it themselves. What they don't realize is that honey is commonly found in many muffins, pastries, mustard sauces, cereals, cookies, biscuits, beers, soups, and breads that they eat every day.

I have yet to find a whole wheat bread (where I shop) that doesn't contain honey! :mad:

Korn
Apr 5th, 2007, 07:53 AM
Good points... it all depend on how the questions were asked. The Vegetarian Resource Group were responsible for the questions, and according to what they wrote, "1.4% never eat meat, poultry, fish/seafood, dairy products/eggs (vegan, except for possibly honey)", but numbers could be wrong due to what you describe...


For example, I'm thinking of the incredible 23.4% in that study who claim to "never" eat honey! What they really mean is they never reach for the honey container and use it themselves. Maybe... OTOH, the number of label readers are growing, and people who don't like the taste of honey (like myself) may check labels to make sure that honey taste doesn't pop up in products they buy.


I have yet to find a whole wheat bread (where I shop) that doesn't contain honey! That's actually not common at all where I shop, but then again - I don't live in Beantown, MA anymore. :)

Mahk
Apr 5th, 2007, 07:45 PM
Korn, you once lived in Boston? No wonder why you're so cool ! :cool:

My main hurdle (in the avoidance of honey) is not in its use as a sweetener, nor as a flavor, but rather as an "inconsequential" ingredient. Let me explain. In many naive Americans' eyes, "honey" is considered a downright "health food". They are starting to learn that white sugar is bad for them, they don't have a clue what "high fructose corn syrup" is, and they think honey (especially when adorned with such words as "all-natural, 100% pure, USDA certified, organic, fresh mountain blossom") is wholesome and nutritious! I see it listed in so many "health foods", that would otherwise be vegan, that I've come to the conclusion that sometimes it has been carefully chosen to be added solely to make the ingredients list "look better" to the average, dumb, American consumer. Here is a classic example of a soup (http://www.amazon.com/Wolfgang-Puck-Organic-Vegetable-14-5-Ounce/dp/B000EM0JWI), found in the health food section of my super market, that clearly gets any "sweetness" from the inclusion of sugar way up high on its ingredients list, but the third to last ingredient listed by quantity (and in an amount below that of salt!) is "organic honey":

Ingredients
Organic Vegetable Stock (Water, Vegetable [Certified Organic Ingredient] and Concentrated Vegetables [Certified Organic Ingredient] (Carrots [Certified Organic Ingredient], Celery [Certified Organic Ingredient], Onions [Certified Organic Ingredient], Tomato [Certified Organic Ingredient]), Salt, Autolyzed Yeast Paste [Certified Organic Ingredient], Cane Sugar [Certified Organic Ingredient], Soy Sauce [Certified Organic Ingredient] (Water, Soybean [Certified Organic Ingredient], Salt, Alcohol [Certified Organic Ingredient]), Maltodextrin [Certified Organic Ingredient], Natural Flavor, Potato Starch [Certified Organic Ingredient], Autolyzed Yeast Extract, Dried Onion [Certified Organic Ingredient], Dried Garlic [Certified Organic Ingredient], Spice [Certified Organic Ingredient]), Organic Lentils, Organic Roasted Potatoes (Potatoes [Certified Organic Ingredient], Calcium Chloride), Organic Onions, Organic Carrots, Organic Celery, Organic Tomatoes (Tomatoes [Certified Organic Ingredient], Tomato Juice [Certified Organic Ingredient], Calcium Chloride and Citric Acid), Organic Spinach, Contains 2% or Less of the Following: Organic Potato Starch, Sea Salt, Organic Honey, Organic Garlic, Organic Spice (http://www.amazon.com/Wolfgang-Puck-Organic-Vegetable-14-5-Ounce/dp/B000EM0JWI).

Perhaps I'm just being paranoid. Or could there be an anti-vegan, "honey conspiracy" ? ;)

emzy1985
Jul 7th, 2007, 08:29 AM
I heard that there were 600,000 of us as of 2007. That seems more feasable(sp?) than 250,000....out of 60 million?? Vegetarians I think are at about 4million last time I read something from the veg soc. Either way stats aren't accurate. We should campaign for the next census to include a section on diet. That way the government can see the healthy or not so healthy eating habits of particular communities and work on improving it. (In an ideal world to a vegan diet hehe!) There is a petition site on the Downing St site...that might be a good place to start...(if anyone knows how to do this...I'll sign it hehe) and also if people in this country truely realise how many of us there are maybe they will think that it is not that hard to be vegan.

Korn
Sep 25th, 2008, 02:05 PM
Some more (new and not-so-new) numbers:

What is the current percentage of vegetarians and vegans in the us
society as well as worldwide? (http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=706957)

How many Veggies ... ? (http://www.euroveg.eu/lang/en/info/howmany.php)

How many vegans in the UK? (http://www.imaner.net/panel/statistics.htm)

Summary of RealEat polls 1984 - 2001 (http://www.vegsoc.org/info/realeat.html)

BlackCats
Sep 25th, 2008, 02:11 PM
Thanks Korn.:)

ellaminnowpea
Sep 25th, 2008, 05:47 PM
Mahk, please do not ask me for stats or links. This is what I think. It's not been research at all.

I'd guess theres a much higher percentage of people in developed/ 1st world (I hate the term 1st world...) countries such as Western Europe, United States, Canada that call themselves vegan. It's sort of a luxury to avoid animal products. But I'd say in some cultures there are a large proportion of people that are vegetarian based on resources or religion or tradition. I doubt people in tribal Africa or villages in Cambodia are interested in limiting their diet further. Though I'd say there's much more of a dietary discrepency between Western diets and veganism than there is between traditional ethnic cuisine of say, Ethiopia or Thai, and veganism.

For some reason, I've always heard that 1% of th population in the US is vegan. Which I doubt... but the more, the better!

FatPassionFishPoet
Oct 9th, 2009, 07:27 PM
*Giggles at Russ' idea*

Personally, I think that the number of Vegans in the UK is only going to grow...you know how there's this massive 'individualist' movement (or whatever you want to call it!) at the moment, which basically says the more alternative you are, the more popular you're going to be? Tons of people I know have made the switch to vegetarianism simply because they think it's 'cool' and 'different'. Ahaha, such flawed lodgic, but I suppose if they're kicking the meat, it's all good, right?

Personally, I can absolutely see hundreds of 'alternative' teenagers, and such, making the change to veganism, because they'll see it as a way of expressing themselves. It'll be like Vegan-Anarchy in the UK! Or V for VEGAN-DETTA!

Maybe all vegans should start wearing Emo clothes or something. Methinks they're the ones most likely to be influenced, since they are, after all, all about being individually dressed in black, etc. Maybe becoming vegan would give them a justification for being so emotional: i.e. they can sob over the deaths of so many millions of animals each year.

One thing which really would help the vegan society grow would probably be be loud and proud vegan celebs. For example, I saw an article the other day about Orlando Bloom wearing his vegan bracelet 'LOUD AND PROUD' or something. I thought this was pretty awesome because A) Women will immediately think 'OH EM GEE, I MUST BECOME A VEGAN TO IMPRESS THE SUPER-SEXY-SUPERSTAR' and B) Men will think 'Holy smokes! Men LOVE that guy! We'd better get our vegan on, so that we might become 1 - particularly attractive, and 2 - potentially more attractive to women.

(Please note, Johnny Depp should most absolutely definitely become a vegan and do this - can you imagine the TWO of them doing it? They'd be some sort of unstoppable force!)

Female celebs should also do this sort of thing. It'd be great; especially since the majority of them are stunning. It could work with a sort of 'by association' thing, like people will immediately think that veganism is 1 - super cool, and 2 - might perhaps make you beautiful (not entirely untrue, since you will be stunning, at least on the inside! ;))

Finally, I think we seriously need to do more vegan publicity events and such things; perhaps more leaflets and such? There's a lot of stuff I'd like to see done to advertise the cause. Personally, though gross, I'm rooting for more graphic examples of why we need to become vegan. I know that for some people, including myself, this sort of thing is a great big kick up the backside; even things like watching/reading Animal Farm affected me a lot. Apparently (so says a family friend) some schools are now taking kids to slaughter-farms (don't know the official names, but you can guess what I mean?!), so that the children can see 'where there food is coming from'. I think this is a great idea. The family friend's daughter became vegetarian the moment she got home - as well as how many others? I think this could be an awesome thing!

That's about all I've got to say...sorry about the rather verbose 'speech' here!