Nutrient deficiencies more common in meat eaters than in vegans?

[eve]

I'm worried about this actually, Korn; I recently got blood tests done but they only did what I presume to be the blood serum level, not MMA and homocysteine. The level was excellent, exceeding the therapeutic range, but as I understand it we need these three tests - blood serum, MMA and homocysteine, is that right?
hi fiamma, when you go for blood tests, aren't you able to first tell the doc which tests to run? Of course sometimes cost comes into it - eg when I get annual testing for such as iron, calcium, cholesterol, b12, glucose levels etc, it is all done for free. But the MMA and homocysteine levels costs around $20 (the last time).

[fiamma]

Hi eve, I asked my doc to test my B12 because of my veganism but I now realise he was only half listening, if listening at all, because the tests showed slight anemia, and he told me to eat meat to bring my iron levels up :eek: I'm just not sure what tests they did, but if they'd done MMA and homocysteine they would have shown up as separate values, and I'm sure you'd need to request them. I was unaware they needed to be tested and so did not ask for them.

[eve]

Guess I don't have to tell you the non-haem veges and fruit that restore iron level and get slight anaemia to disappear. All the best.

[fiamma]

If you posted them I'd be very grateful :)

[Korn]

Here's what the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada says about nutrient levels in vegans and vegetarians:


It is the position of the American Dietetic Association and Dietitians of Canada that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, nutritionally adequate and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Approximately 2.5% of adults in the United States and 4% of adults in Canada follow vegetarian diets. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat, fish or fowl. Interest in vegetarianism appears to be increasing, with many restaurants and college foodservices offering vegetarian meals routinely. Substantial growth in sales of foods attractive to vegetarians has occurred, and these foods appear in many supermarkets. This position paper reviews the current scientific data related to key nutrients for vegetarians, including protein, iron, zinc, calcium, vitamin D, riboflavin, vitamin B-12, vitamin A, n-3 fatty acids and iodine. A vegetarian, including vegan, diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, use of fortified foods or supplements can be helpful in meeting recommendations for individual nutrients. Well-planned vegan and other types of vegetarian diets are appropriate for all stages of the life cycle, including during pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence. Vegetarian diets offer a number of nutritional benefits, including lower levels of saturated fat, cholesterol, and animal protein as well as higher levels of carbohydrates, fiber, magnesium, potassium, folate, and antioxidants such as vitamins C and E and phytochemicals. Vegetarians have been reported to have lower body mass indices than nonvegetarians, as well as lower rates of death from ischemic heart disease; vegetarians also show lower blood cholesterol levels; lower blood pressure; and lower rates of hypertension, type 2 diabetes, and prostate and colon cancer. Although a number of federally funded and institutional feeding programs can accommodate vegetarians, few have foods suitable for vegans at this time. Because of the variability of dietary practices among vegetarians, individual assessment of dietary intakes of vegetarians is required. Dietetics professionals have a responsibility to support and encourage those who express an interest in consuming a vegetarian diet. They can play key roles in educating vegetarian clients about food sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and any dietary modifications that may be necessary to meet individual needs. Menu planning for vegetarians can be simplified by use of a food guide that specifies food groups and serving sizes.

Maybe I should add the 'planning' part of it disappears when eating healthy becomes a habit, and that even 'well planned' diets based on animal products are associated with a number of health problems. The article is interesting, although it gives a mild impression that vegans need to be more concerned about eating healthy and about getting the right amount (not too little, not too much) of nutrients, which is highly discussable (but which of course functions as a useful reminder for new vegans who may just remove animal products from their own diet without of replacing them with tasty, nutrient rich vegan food they'll need to learn to make.)

[eve]

Fiamma, just noticed your postings

Food Serving mg content
Cashew nuts 2 tbsp 1.0
Pumpkin seeds 2 tbsp 2.5
Tahini 2 tbsp 1.2
Sunflower seeds 2 tbsp 1.1
Molasses 1 tbsp 3.3
Licorice 50 g 4.4
Marmite (fortified) 5 g 1.8
Apricots (dried) 1/4 cup 1.5
Raisins 1/4 cup 1.1
Avocado 1/2 1.0
Prunes 1/4 cup 0.9
Parsley (raw) 50 g 4.7
Spinach (cooked) 1/2 cup 1.5
Broccoli (cooked) 1/2 cup 1.0
Brussels sprouts (cooked) 1/2 cup 0.9
Bread, whole wheat 1 slice 0.9
Rice, brown (cooked) 1/2 cup 0.5
Tofu 1/2 cup 6.2

There are heaps more, such as beans of all descriptions, tempeh, split peas etc

[fiamma]

Thank you so much Eve, that's really kind of you.

[eclectic_one]

Those are all good sources of iron except spinach. From everything I've read, iron is not absorbed from spinach because of the naturally occuring oxalates also in spinach...though lots of vegan sources mention spinach as a good source:confused: I also think the soymilk I drink has a good amount of iron. Also, it's important to have a good amount of vitamin C in your diet to help digest the non-heme iron that we vegans get...as well as avoiding calcium and caffeine for at least a couple of hours before an iron-heavy meal or supplement. Anyway, here's a link to more info: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm#table1

[DancingWillow]

Anyway, here's a link to more info: http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm#table1

thanks for that link, eclectic. it had interesting and good info. do you have any other links that you could post about spinach not being a good source of iron because of oxalates?

[eclectic_one]

Certainly:)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinach
http://www.jctonic.com/include/minerals/iron.htm
http://www.nms.on.ca/Secondary/iron_is_good_for_you.htm#Iron%20Content%20vs.%20Ir on%20Absorption
Also, in Becoming Vegan and some other books I've read.

[Korn]

Here's (http://www.spatrade.com/articles/archive/ds799-3.html) another site referring to general (non-vegan) studies of nutrient deficiencies.

One study shows the difference between nutrient values in organic vs. non-organic food, the other shows percentages of essential nutrients that are lost when whole wheat grain is turned into white flour. The study most relevant to this thread are based on two government sponsored surveys measuring intake of 13 out of 45 essential nutrients in tens of thousands of people: The "Health and Nutrition Examination Survey" (1971-1974) and "The Nationwide Food Consumption Survey" (1977-1978).



Nutrient / % who get less than RDA
Calcium: 68
Biotin: 10
Folacin: 10+
Chromium: 90
Iron : 57
Copper: 85-90
Magnesium: 75
Manganese: 20-30
Phosphorous: 27
Pantothenic acid: 25
Vitamin A: 50
Selenium: 50-60
Vitamin B1: 45
Silicon: 30
Vitamin B2: 34
Vitamin D: 10
Vitamin B3: 33
Vitamin E: 20-40
Vitamin B6: 80
Vitamin K: 15
Vitamin B12 : 34
Omega 3 fatty acids: 95
Vitamin C: 41
Zinc: 35-60

The various studies are collected by Gabriella Juris, Ph.D.

Here's a link (http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/16/23/23.html) to another site discussing similar studies - again. an excerpt:


"Lacking vitamins, the system can make use of minerals, but lacking minerals, vitamins are useless." -- Senate document 264, 74th Congress, 1936

The same document went on to quantify the extent of mineral deficiency:

"99% of the American people are deficient in minerals, and a marked deficiency in any one of the more important minerals actually results in disease."

Congressional documents are not generally highly regarded as scientific sources, and other reference texts cite other percentages. The figures quoted by Albion Laboratories, the world leader in patents on supplemental minerals, are somewhat lower, but the idea begins to come across:

Deficiency -- U.S. Population

Magnesium: 75%
Iron: 58%
Copper: 81%
Manganese: 50%
Chromium: 50%
Zinc: 67%

[Yogini]

What a great thread - I just discoverd it this evening. I hear a lot of stuff about "well, it must be so hard on your diet to ensure you're getting all your required nutrients" (said in a self-important tone of voice.) I've always responded that omni or herbi, balancing your diet properly takes a little effort - you can't just stuff anything in your mouth be it animal or plant and expect things to take of themselves. But no one ever believes me! Now I have proof!:D

[Korn]

I hear a lot of stuff about "well, it must be so hard on your diet to ensure you're getting all your required nutrients" (said in a self-important tone of voice.)

Yes, it's amazing to see how many non-vegans who believe that vegans need to be more worried about healthy nutrient levels than non-vegans. OTOH, we can't really blame them, because balanced info about plant based nutrition was harder to find a few decades ago than it's now, so most of us have received the info we have from parents and teachers and journalists that didn't much about veg*nism at all.

I'll start another thread about folate (B9) soon, but here's some info about folate from newstarget.com:

Folic acid deficiencies are widespread; here's why nearly everyone needs more folate (http://www.newstarget.com/016208.html):


Despite its range of health benefits, many Americans are deficient in the vitamin, coming nowhere near the government's recommended daily allowance of 200 micrograms daily. "The average American gets only 61 percent of the old Recommended Dietary Allowance, which is too low anyway," says James Duke, PhD in Anti-Aging Prescriptions. Part of the reason for the shortfall is that more Americans are choosing to eat more animal foods – which are a poor source of folic acid – rather than folic-acid rich plant foods, like dark green vegetables, legumes, root vegetables and whole grains.

Dr. Andrew Weil, in Ask Dr. Weil, recommends the use of supplements to make up for the deficiency. "As many as 90 percent of Americans don't get that protective 400 micrograms in their diet – for example, you'd have to eat two cups of steamed spinach, a cup of boiled lentils, or eight oranges every day. So it's important to take a supplement, especially if you're a woman and considering having children someday." As Dr. Weil suggests, for women who are deficient in this essential vitamin, the health costs can be especially high.


However, when taking folic acid supplements, it is important to remember that folic acid and vitamin B-12 work most effectively together, so you should make sure you are getting enough vitamin B-12, as well. Vegans often struggle with this balance since their diets are very rich in folic acid but not in B-12.

In general, I don't like general statements (oops - I just made one!), and I don't think all vegans have very high folate levels, simply because a vegan diet can consist of anything (eg. popcorn, white pasta with canned tomato sauce and chocolate - daily). Nevertheless - it's generally known that vegans generally are better off than meat eaters in when it comes to folate levels.

[Korn]

http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/factsheets/b12factsheet.html


Several reports single out vegetarians, and particularly vegans, as a high risk group for vitamin B12 deficiency. (16, 17, 18). One extensive UK study described the nutrient intakes of over 65,000 people including 33,883 meat-eaters, 10,110 fish-eaters, 18,840 lacto-ovo vegetarians and 2,596 vegans (19). This EPIC-Oxford cohort currently includes the largest number of vegetarians than any comparable study in the world. The study concluded that vegans had the highest intakes of fibre, vitamin B1, folate, vitamin C, vitamin E, magnesium and iron, and the lowest intakes of retinol, vitamin B12, vitamin D, calcium and zinc. But this does not necessarily mean they were deficient in any of these nutrients.

[eclectic_one]

I know you already mentioned this Korn, but I thought it worth repeating since people often "pick on" veganism because they think it causes B12 deficiency:
However, when taking folic acid supplements, it is important to remember that folic acid and vitamin B-12 work most effectively together, so you should make sure you are getting enough vitamin B-12, as well. Vegans often struggle with this balance since their diets are very rich in folic acid but not in B-12.
So even if it is true that vegans might have to be concerned with B12, omnivores have to be concerned with folic acid or they will end up with many of the same problems as B12 deficient people will have...

[Korn]

I know you already mentioned this Korn, but I thought it worth repeating since people often "pick on" veganism because they think it causes B12 deficiency:
However, when taking folic acid supplements, it is important to remember that folic acid and vitamin B-12 work most effectively together, so you should make sure you are getting enough vitamin B-12, as well. Vegans often struggle with this balance since their diets are very rich in folic acid but not in B-12.
Sure... Vegans need to pay extra attention to B12 just like non-vegans need to pay extra attention to folate - both nutrients are needed. Even if eg. folate may be helpful for people who are low in B12 eg. in terms of lowering homocysteine levels, folate can't replace B12.

---


Here's something about Omega-3 levels in the average population. One of the studies cited above mentioned that 95% of all people are Omega-3 deficient, but other sources claim that the number of people who get too little Omega-3 from their is lower:

http://www.triplepundit.com/pages/guest-post-recipe-for-student--002402.php

Could it be that these ailments are far more prevalent now because our food has changed? As a matter of fact, according to Dr. Artemis Simopoulos, M.D., who headed the NIH Nutrition Committee for nine years, 90% of Americans are omega-3-deficient. Kids with asthma and allergies typically have lower plasma levels of omega-3s, as do many kids with ADD. Since all those problems are greatly helped by omega-3s, shouldn’t we increase omega-3 foods in the schools?

Omega-3 Supplement Alleviates Dry Eye Symptoms (http://ezinearticles.com/?Omega-3-Supplement-Alleviates-Dry-Eye-Symptoms&id=362401):

An estimated 83% of Americans do not receive enough Omega-3s in their diet. North Americans have among the lowest dietary intake of Omega-3s in the world.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Omega-3-Fatty-Acids-and-Antioxidants-A-New-Improved-Source&id=227030 :

One nutritional supplement that nearly everyone needs is a good source of omega-3 fatty acids to counterbalance the excessive amounts of omega-6 oils that are in the average diet. Although the ideal dietary ratio of omega-3 to omega-6 fats is 1:1, it's commonly in the range of 1:20 to 1:50. An estimated 85% - 95% of North Americans are omega-3 deficient. The increased level of inflammation in our bodies caused by this imbalance is a common factor in many forms of chronic disease, including arthritis and heart disease.

[Korn]

Here's some new information about Vitamin D deficiency, (http://www.ich.ucl.ac.uk/pressoffice/pressrelease_00510) published last week:


A study of middle aged British adults showed that the majority, 60%, have hypovitaminosis D [less than optimal levels of vitamin D], and 90% have less than optimal levels during winter and spring.

Previously hypovitaminosis D has been considered to be a public health problem that affects mainly ethnic minority groups living in Britain, but the current study shows that the problem is very real also among the Caucasian population.

Participants living in Scotland were twice as likely to have low vitamin D concentrations compared to others.

Obese participants were twice as likely to have hypovitaminosis D compared to others.

According to this (http://ezinearticles.com/?Vitamin-D-Deficiency-Associated-with-High-Incidence-Cancer-Mortality&id=178948) article, "statistics show that about 40% of the United States population is vitamin D deficient and indicate that in Great Britain the majority of adult population are in the same condition." I guess one reason the number is lower in USA is that fortifying milk with vitamin D is more common there.

[Korn]

"As many as 90 percent of Americans don't get that protective 400 micrograms [folate] in their diet – for example, you'd have to eat two cups of steamed spinach, a cup of boiled lentils, or eight oranges every day. So it's important to take a supplement, especially if you're a woman and considering having children someday."



...and - also from http://www.newstarget.com/016208.html

Despite its range of health benefits, many Americans are deficient in the vitamin, coming nowhere near the government's recommended daily allowance of 200 micrograms daily. "The average American gets only 61 percent of the old Recommended Dietary Allowance, which is too low anyway," says James Duke, PhD in Anti-Aging Prescriptions.

That quote looks like people would have to get folate from either only eating spinach or only eating oranges. What's wrong with these people? :) Are these the same guys who tells vegans how many cups of organic spinach, barley or soy (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255) we'd have to eat to get enough B12? :) Vegans may not get enough B12 from their diet, but there are some very valid reasons (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196) that many vegans and non-vegans have low B12 levels if they don't take supplements.


Anyway, if it's correct that 90% of Americans don't get the amount of folate (I don't know if this number is correct - do any of you have more info on this?) needed to avoid the health risks low folate levels are assoicated with, the folate deficiency problem among people on a mixed diet (meat + plants) is much more severe than the problem with vegetarians and vegans having low B12 levels. Look here: http://cebp.aacrjournals.org/cgi/content/full/12/11/1222: "Low folate has been associated with an increased risk for a number of gastrointestinal cancers (1) , including esophageal (2, 3, 4) and stomach cancers". In addition, folate is known for other severe problems - here's (http://www.sph.emory.edu/PAMM/folicacid.htm) some info from an article posted at Emory University's site:


Recent research has shown that almost all people who do not consume supplemental folic acid are folate deficient. Plasma homocysteine concentrations are a marker of folate-deficiency. Approximately 90 per cent of people in the Framingham study population and 90 per cent of the people in NHANES III (Nutrition and Health Assessment Examination Survey) --a national representative sample of non institutional people in the United States in the late 1980s and the early 1990s-- have elevated plasma homocysteine because their plasma folate is too low. A cross sectional study in Irish hospital workers suggests that 70% have plasma homocysteines that are reduced by supplement folic acid consumption.

Folate deficiency each year causes 500,000 severe birth defects that can be prevented by supplemental synthetic folic acid.

In 1991, the MRC folic acid study was published showing that most cases of spina bifida and anencephaly—common and severe birth defects with major mortality and paralysis—are a result of folate deficiency. CDC scientists estimated that world –wide there are each year 500,000 pregnancies affected with folic acid-preventable spina bifida and anencephaly. In late 1999, scientists from Bejing Medical University and CDC published the results of a large community trial showing that consumption of only 400 microgram of synthetic folic acid above the amounts in the diet would prevent 85% of these birth defects in the highest prevalence areas and 40% in lower prevalence areas. Thus, increase consumption of synthetic folic acid by all women of reproductive age would not only prevent folate deficiency anemia, but it would also prevent 500,000 severe birth defects.

10 million deaths from heart attacks and strokes probably preventable by increasing consumption of synthetic folic acid:

In the last 10 years it has become clear that plasma/serum concentration of homocysteine is a major, independent risk factor for occlusive cardiovascular disease. A meta-analysis from the University of Washington in 1995 suggested that increasing consumption by 400 micrograms of synthetic folic acid among the American population would prevent annually 50,000 deaths each year from heart attacks. Since the publication of that data even stronger observational data have strengthened the link between low folates leading to increased homocysteiene concentration and increased risk for stroke and heart attacks. For example in the prospective cohort Nurses Health Study, women who consumed supplement folic acid had about a 25% reduction in coronary heart disease. A randomized control trial in Chinese men who consumed 800 micrograms of synthetic folic acid had a 50% reduction in stroke mortality. Using the University of Washington data to project to the world from the United States data would suggest that at approximately 10 million heart attack deaths might be prevented each year in the world if there is sufficient increase in synthetic folic acid consumption. In addition such increased consumption would be expected to prevent 10 of thousands of deaths from stroke, also.

It almost looks like this university is controlled by the supplement industry (but that could be said about the US Government as well - I recently heard that up to 1000 lobbyists from the pharmaceutical industry was trying to influence the members of the Congress before important decisions about the medical industry were made)...


Folate deficiency is associated with with birth defects, heart disease and many types of cancer, so if almost all meat eaters are folate deficient, I somewhat understand their enthusiasm for synthetic folate supplements, but it's kind of ironic that people who warn us against living on a vegan due to an increased B12 deficiency risk live on a diet that's known for a lot of deficiencies. They may know that if they would have switched to a vegan diet, they would have no problems with getting enough folate without taking synthetic supplements - but I doubt that most meat eaters know that by going vegan they would get higher levels of other important nutrients as well.

[Korn]

Here's (http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/62/6/1221?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fulltext=human+vegan&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT) an excerpt from a study that compares the anti-oxidant levels in vegans, and compares it with both the US recommended dietary allowances (RDA) and meat eaters:


Antioxidant status in long-term adherents to a strict uncooked vegan diet

AL Rauma, R Torronen, O Hanninen, H Verhagen and H Mykkanen
Department of Clinical Nutrition, University of Kuopio, Finland.

Antioxidant status was investigated in 20 Finnish middle-aged female vegans and in one male vegan who were following a strict, uncooked vegan diet ("living food diet"), by means of a dietary survey and biochemical measurements (blood concentrations of vitamins C and E and beta-carotene, and the activities of the zinc/copper-dependent superoxide dismutase and selenium-dependent glutathione peroxidase). Values were compared with those of omnivores matched for sex, age, social status, and residence. Antioxidant supplementation was used by 4 of 20 female vegans and by 11 of 20 control subjects.

Based on dietary records, the vegans had significantly higher intakes of beta-carotene, vitamin E, vitamin C, and copper, and a significantly lower intake of selenium than the omnivorous control subjects. The calculated dietary antioxidant intakes by the vegans, expressed as percentages of the US recommended dietary allowances, were as follows: 305% of vitamin C, 247% of vitamin A, 313% of vitamin E, 92% of zinc, 120% of copper, and 49% of selenium.

Compared with the omnivores, the vegans had significantly higher blood concentrations of beta-carotene, vitamin C, and vitamin E, as well as higher erythrocyte superoxide dismutase activity. These differences were also seen in pairs who were using no antioxidant supplements. The present data indicate that the "living food diet" provides significantly more dietary antioxidants than does the cooked, omnivorous diet, and that the long-term adherents to this diet have a better antioxidant status than do omnivorous control subjects.

[Korn]

Here (http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/display.php?id=000020022202A0838022)'s a study concluding that a vitamin B12 deficiency (<150pg/mL) was detected in only 2.0% (males) and 1.0% (females) of the Korean adults. This was not a study on vegans, but it would be interesting to know the difference between the lifestyle and diet of these Koreans and the diet/lifestyle of most other non-vegans that have been studied, because very few B12 deficient people were found in this study. The god results may not come from the amount of B12 in their diet - it could also come from the lack of being exposed to B12 reducing factors.

[Korn]

According to this (http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/display.php?id=000020011201A0383645) study on 150 Japanese female students aged 21-22, "46.7% of the females showed sufficient intake for vitamin A, 28.7% for E, 80.7% for B1, 92.7% for B2, 54.7% for B6, 99.3% for niacin, 76.0% for B12, 34.0% for folate, and 54.0% for C".

In other words, circa 53% of these people were deficient in vitamin A, circa 71% were vitamin E deficient, and 66% were folate deficient. 24% did not have sufficient levels of B12.

[PaintedXSkyline]

i find all of this very amusing :D

[Korn]

Folate is found in many of plants - in generous amounts, but people on a mixed (plants/meat) diet often have a problem getting enough folate, which this study documents:

The effect of folic acid supplementation on plasma homocysteine in an elderly population (http://qjmed.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/95/1/27)

"Our data suggest that, if the vitamin B12 intake is adequate, an intake of about 900 µg folate per day would be required to ensure that 95% of the elderly population would be without cardiovascular risk from folate deficiency. This corresponds to a daily supplement of 600 µg of folic acid. This is considerably higher than the level of fortification in the US, where 140 µg folic acid per 100 g cereal is estimated to increase the folic acid intake of most women by 80 µg per day. It is also higher than the level of fortification recommended in the COMA report of 240 µg/100 g of flour, which would increase average intake of folic acid by 201 µg/day.30 Whether the daily supplementation of folic acid is administered as a tablet or by food fortification is a policy issue for debate elsewhere."

[sandra]

I'm starting to believe more and more that although it is important to make sure we are getting the correct nutrients from our food, it is more important that our bodies are working properly and are able to convert the nutrients into substances we need.

[patientia]

In this document, on the page 8, you can see the percentage of Americans not getting the EAR (intake of nutrients satisfying the needs of half of the population) of various nutrients:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/12355000/pdf/usualintaketables2001-02.pdf