[Several multi-question threads, closed]

[Clueless Git]

Perhaps there are some places where humans shouldn't live.
This is a good point!

Possibly many humans live where humans shouldn't have to live because where they could live has long since been ringfenced off for the vast unnatural flocks and herds.

Something like 30% of all land space on the face of the planet is farmed (bearing in mind that a fair percentage is desert and mountains and stuff) and 70% of that 30% is used entirely for animal agriculture.

Get rid of the animal agriculture and you have an awfull lot of land to return to wildlife habitat and to move humans who live where humans shouldn't have to live about.

[Andy_T]

Would gathering some coins from benevolent passers-by and then hunting down a fish-and-chips merchant to secure some food also be considered?
Because I guess that is what a hunter-and-gatherer lifestyle in Britain might amount to nowadays.

Best regards,
Andy

[harpy]

Harpy have you gone insane after your scary experience the other day? :amazed_ani:

It's possible.

I expect you're Spartacus too, cw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFbCS4a14J4

[cobweb]

It's possible.

I expect you're Spartacus too, cw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFbCS4a14J4

Oh, I see, he-he :)

[sandra]

Thank you all for covering for me! ;)

[Clueless Git]

Would gathering some coins from benevolent passers-by and then hunting down a fish-and-chips merchant to secure some food also be considered?
Because I guess that is what a hunter-and-gatherer lifestyle in Britain might amount to nowadays.

Best regards,
Andy

'Lo Andy,

It would be hunt down an Indian Restaurant owner in modern day Blighty matey.

Britains No.1 favourite take-away dish is no longer fish'n'chips but Chicken Tikka-Massalla.

Which minds me of the 'Spartacus' I met in my local Indian Restaurant; He had been talking about huntin'n'fishing when he realised there was a vegan (me!) present.

He quickly switched to the usual old "respect vegans/don't like factory farming/only eat stuff I have caught and killed myself" bollox.

Then one of the waiters turned up with his take-away which turned out to be none other than Britains new favourite dish, Chicken Tikka Massala ...

Couldn't help myself, just looked straight at his carry-out bag, then straight into his eyes, and said "hunted and killed that yourself then did you?"

Left me musing that one of the many aspects of the suffering that meat causes is that it makes basicaly very nice people, who really would like the world to be a better place, into pathetic lying wankers.

[leedsveg]

Left me musing that one of the many aspects of the suffering that meat causes is that it makes basicaly very nice people, who really would like the world to be a better place, into pathetic lying wankers.

"I expect omnis to be brainwashed slaves to the meat eating habit exactly the same as I was." Cupid Stunt 26 Jan 2011

Forgive me Cupid but your two statements seem a bit contradictory to me. How can people you call "brainwashed slaves", also be "pathetic lying wankers"? ;)

leedsveg

[Clueless Git]

"I expect omnis to be brainwashed slaves to the meat eating habit exactly the same as I was." Cupid Stunt 26 Jan 2011

Forgive me Cupid but your two statements seem a bit contradictory to me. How can people you call "brainwashed slaves", also be "pathetic lying wankers"? ;)

leedsveg
No contradiction there at all most honourable matey :)

Brainwashing (kinda by definition?) is a process by which people are blinded to all but the 'lie' that the brainwasher wishes to instill and propogate.

Anyone who has been succesfully brainwashed is thus going to be a propagator of the lies they have been brainwashed into believing and thus, by default, is going to be a liar.

[fiamma]

matey

Wow, Cupid - you sure do love making assumptions. For example, that everyone here is your "mate". Are they?


it makes basicaly very nice people, who really would like the world to be a better place, into pathetic lying wankers

That's a sweeping statement if there ever was one. I sincerely believe there are people (like I was) have never really made the connection between meat-eating and cruelty, but once they are, are willing to change. Then there are those unwilling (or unable) to give up meat for a variety of reasons, and those aware of the cruelty involved, but don't care.

But calling all meat eaters "pathetic lying wankers" is intolerant, disrespectful and plain untrue. I would ask you respectfully to tone down your language; we are not all your "mates" and this is not a bar where a bit of Dutch courage gives you the licence to say whatever you please.

[leedsveg]

No contradiction there at all most honourable matey :)

Brainwashing (kinda by definition?) is a process by which people are blinded to all but the 'lie' that the brainwasher wishes to instill and propogate.

Anyone who has been succesfully brainwashed is thus going to be a propagator of the lies they have been brainwashed into believing and thus, by default, is going to be a liar.

Sorry Cupid but with respect, your explanation elicited a few guffaws in the house of Leedsveg. MrsLeedsveg is an excellent creative writer but even she was amazed at what you can do with words! :amazed_ani: We're now awaiting with bated breath, your take (so far inexplicably missing) on the two other words from the phrase "pathetic lying wankers". (I have every confidence that you will prove to your own satisfaction that the two sentences of yours that I queried, are not contradictory.)

Good wishes as always Leedsveglol

[RubyDuby]

LV- How is this helping the cause as set forth by the founders of the vegan society, or whatever you said your sole purpose was here at the vegan forum now. I thought you had given up trouble making?

[Clueless Git]

Sorry Cupid but with respect ...
I don't think your being scrupulously honest there LV ...

[Clueless Git]

Wow, Cupid - you sure do love making assumptions. For example, that everyone here is your "mate". Are they?
I rather suspect that some are definitely not Fiamma, m'matey :)




That's a sweeping statement if there ever was one ..
No it wasn't.

The bloke I met did seem like a very nice bloke but he was a pathetic lying wanker as I relayed in the story that my observation related to, matey.

[harpy]

The whole point of brainwashing is that the victim ends up believing whatever it is they're brainwashed about. And if you say something you believe, you're not lying, even if the thing isn't true - you're uttering a false belief in good faith. "Lying" on the other hand normally means saying something false with intent to deceive.

[leedsveg]

LV- How is this helping the cause as set forth by the founders of the vegan society, or whatever you said your sole purpose was here at the vegan forum now. I thought you had given up trouble making?

Hi RubyDuby
I think if people make what I perceive are contradictory statements, then I can challenge them. And not only statements that are contradictory but couched in language that I, and I would hope others, find quite offensive. How can you ie any vegan have any hope of persuading omnis to take veganism seriously if you refer to them as "pathetic lying wankers" and "brainwashed slaves"? And refer to discussions with omnis as "kicking ass"? I had hoped that Cupid would tone down his postings, following on from his "vegetarians are worse than paedophiles" comment some months ago but apparently not. Is Cupid just a 'wind-up merchant'? Well I look at his "m'matey" response to fiamma and have to wonder.

As for your question "I thought you had given up trouble making?", I really don't think it's worthy of a reply.

Ian Davison (Leedsveg)

[harpy]

I don't think we vegans should fall out about this, otherwise we are just doing what trolls want (not sure if spartacus is a troll or a seeker after truth but either way...)

I know CS thinks a more confrontational approach works better in making people rethink their meat-eating but (even if it was my style) I would feel rather hypocritical calling people lying wankers and so on considering I ate meat for ages myself. I probably did believe some "lies" about humane meat production and so on before I looked into it in more detail. But that's different from lying.

[SlackAlice]

[QUOTE=fiamma;675063 I sincerely believe there are people (like I was) have never really made the connection between meat-eating and cruelty, but once they are, are willing to change. Then there are those unwilling (or unable) to give up meat for a variety of reasons, and those aware of the cruelty involved, but don't care.
[/QUOTE]

Then arent the ones who can make the connection liars? (Pathetic or otherwise)

They know the truth but chose to ignore it or bend it to suit their own pleasure and purpose.

If you are brainwashed into believing a truth only to have it exposed as a lie dont you become a liar yourself if you perpetuate it ?

Slack Alice

[Korn]

Hi. I have been away for a few days and some posts have been reported. Please avoid personal attacks, and this includes writings that only appear as personal attack/insults on others. It's fully possible to express one's feelings about meat eating and meat eaters without insulting them all.

After all, they represent ninentysomething % of all people in the Western world, and we can discuss what they do (in this case: eating meat) and still focus on viewpoints instead of personalities.

Re. Spartacus, the original poster in this thread; he has been on moderated posts and also have had some of his many posts removed due to many repetitions of the same few things he has brought up in various threads (veganism in cold climates etc). The removed posts *may* have included responses to questions from others, but with his cross-posting, the sometimes very long posts - and his high posting rate it's impossible to follow up his desires to have the many questions he raises discussed. He has, on several occasions, accused others for having stated things they haven't - and all of this, combined with the fact that this is mainly a forum for vegans means that the the vegan/non-vegan section should be considered more or less closed - expect for cases where there are no false accusations or a similarly hight rate of posting anti-vegan arguments across many messages/threads.


He has been more active than most of our active members, and I simply don't have capacity to focus on moderating all his posts. This, combined with him letting me know that he finds that most of what he has received here is "hostile prejudice, rudeness and heavy censorship" and that I'm "afraid" of his posts means that he doesn't even like the site, and this is a site for this who like it.

Next time a meat eater pops up in this section, please don't be rude, call them "pathetic lying wankers" or similar.

[fiamma]

Then arent the ones who can make the connection liars? (Pathetic or otherwise). They know the truth but chose to ignore it or bend it to suit their own pleasure and purpose.

You might want to look at the Forum guidelines:

Rule # 5) Consider VF a dinner party where vegans are invited to friendly communication.

It doesn't really matter what our own personal opinion of meat-eaters is, but what we write on an Internet forum is another matter.
Calling people "pathetic lying wankers" might be OK on other forums, but on VF we try to be a little more constructive.


If you are brainwashed into believing a truth only to have it exposed as a lie dont you become a liar yourself if you perpetuate it ?

Harpy put it very well in her post above #31:
The whole point of brainwashing is that the victim ends up believing whatever it is they're brainwashed about. And if you say something you believe, you're not lying, even if the thing isn't true - you're uttering a false belief in good faith. "Lying" on the other hand normally means saying something false with intent to deceive.

[Korn]

"Lier" = focusing on someones personalities - as opposed to what they do and their thoughts.
"Not telling the truth" = focus on the actual topic. Surely many meat eaters 'ignore it or bend it to suit their own pleasure and purpose", but this may be true for many vegans as well in several life situations - even if we avoid animal products.

[leedsveg]

I don't think your being scrupulously honest there LV ...

Cupid

I like to make people laugh but in the rib-tickling stakes, you are The Master. I was going to tell you that some people think my middle name is 'Honesty' but in actual fact it's Roger, so I won't.lol

Happy Valentines Day to you and Slack, by the way. I hope you're treating her to card, flowers, meal, the full monty.

Leedsveg

[leedsveg]

It struck me earlier that sometimes people can be brainwashed into telling 'the truth'. For instance, where people who have been brainwashed by cults to believe the most outlandish, idiotic nonsense ie lies, and the only perceived recourse has been to kidnap them and brainwash (reprogramme) them back, so that their 'critical faculties' kick in again.

Leedsveg

[Clueless Git]

Next time a meat eater pops up in this section, please don't be rude, call them "pathetic lying wankers" or similar.
Heavens to betsy!

I apologise for using the word 'wanker' but the bloke in the story that line was attached to was one and he was lying, patheticaly.

He knew full well that he hadn't caught the chicken in his chicken tikka-massala himself.

No mistake. He was lying and it was pathetic. That was all I wanted to say.

[Clueless Git]

The whole point of brainwashing is that the victim ends up believing whatever it is they're brainwashed about. And if you say something you believe, you're not lying, even if the thing isn't true - you're uttering a false belief in good faith. "Lying" on the other hand normally means saying something false with intent to deceive.
This is a very good point!

Much over the age of ten I have never met a meat eater who does not simply want that to be true which he/she knows full well not to be true though.

Basicaly that means that the lies they propogate all begin with them lying to themselves.

[cobweb]

Right speech
Right speech (samyag-vāc / sammā-vācā), deals with the way in which a Buddhist practitioner would best make use of their words. In the Pali Canon, it is explained thus:[30][31][32][33][34]
And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, and from idle chatter: This is called right speech.

I thought you were a Buddhist, CS?................