[Several multi-question threads, closed]

[gertvegan]

why is diet soda so bad for you? foxy, I posted this (http://veganforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6730&postcount=12) previously in the Fish in soft drinks!!! (http://veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=767&highlight=THROAT+CANCER) thread.

[foxytina_69]

thanx gert.

[Got2Pups]

i have been a 'short time' lerker and have decided to join. i am a 25 year young female married to a meat eater. (which whom i cook for!) within the last week i have started moving from my vegatarian way of life (13 years) to a vegan lifestyle. i used to eat eggs, dairy, and seafood. (i grew up on the chesapeake, the daughter of a fisherman)

anyway, slowly but surely i am beginning to cut these things out. i have started with no milk, eggs, seafood or mono and diglycerides. i am also trying to buy only 'vegan' toiletries. since there are so many things that people are unaware have animal products in them my plan is to learn a few things at a time and slowly cut them out.

my questions are:

should i take a multivitamen until i get into 'the swing of things'? (i am not one to normally buy into those things)

how slowly should i begin to cut things out? can i do this rapidly or does my body need me to take my time with it?

what does your daily/weekly menu look like?

do you see a vegan friendly primary care doctor or are most doctor's vegan friendly?

it is nice, since i live in baltimore and i have plenty of close resources, (whole foods market, Pangea etc) but it is still a challenging transition and any advice for the 'new commer' would be great!

Got2pups

[kokopelli]

Hello and congratulations on deciding to become vegan!

I don't think you need to take multivitamins, you can get enough of all vitamins in a vegan diet EXCEPT vitamin B12, which you can get from tablets, or fortified foods, such as margarine, soya milk, yeast extracts. And if you don't get enough sunlight on your skin, you may also need to be sure to get enough vitamin D, again via supplements or fortified foods. D2 is vegan, D3 is not.

I know not all vegans agree about this, some people think you can get enough without fortified foods, but personally I think it's a good idea to be sure, because a deficiency can lead to pernicious anaemia and elevated homocysteine levels, which can contribute to the risk of heart disease. Check out the Vitamin B12 and Vitamin D threads.

I gradually changed from being omnivorous to vegan, but my kids (aged 19, 17 and 12) have been vegan for their whole lives, and they're very healthy.

We eat a lot of tofu with rice, potatoes, bulgar or pasta and salad.
Shepherd's pie made wih mashed potato with beans or lentils and vegetables underneath, eaten with broccoli, kale or cabbage.
Sometimes we have roast dinners with roast potatoes, pumpkin, parsnips, nut roast made from breadcrumbs, onions and ground nuts, carrot, broccli and apple sauce and gravy (yum!).
And until our toaster caught on fire, we ate a lot of pitta breads with houmous and salad, or avocado, tomato and hot sauce.
Also burritos are nice filled with salad and refried beans.
And sprout sandwiches.

Haven't had much to do with doctors since I was pregnant!

:)

[cedarblue]

HI GOT2PUPS, AND WELCOME :)

try this thread (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=332) for the sort of things folk eat daily.

if you check out the 'health' threads you will find loads of info about health/vits/supplements etc to help you.

many of us here graduated from veggie to vegan and a few of us (me included) have spouses who are omnis (my husband is veggie at home though! :) ) so just ask away if you have any questions or pm me if you wish to talk 'confidentially'. :D

[Stu]

And until our toaster caught on fire...
sprout sandwiches.

Nutter.

[kokopelli]

The flaming toaster was no laughing matter...my kids have been suffering toast withdrawal symptoms ever since :(

[Got2Pups]

thanks for the responses! it is comforting to know there is a resourse for this sort of thing. so many of my family/friends/co-workers are haveing trouble adjusting/understanding my lifestyle change. it is nice to know i can get some straight answers to my questions.


.......and i am sorry to hear about your toaster.

[Geoff]

And until our toaster caught on fire, we ate a lot of pitta breads with houmous and salad, or avocado, tomato and hot sauce.
Also burritos are nice filled with salad and refried beans.
And sprout sandwiches. :)

I've got a toaster that you're welcome to. (I use a gas grill as I don't trust electrickery) :)

[tails4wagging]

Hi, and welcome. You are very brave handling and cooking dead animals!!. I could not do that!. Divorce him dear!!! :) :D

[kokopelli]

I've got a toaster that you're welcome to. (I use a gas grill as I don't trust electrickery) :)

Thanks for your kind offer...but I fear postage would be astronomical!

Is your computer gas-powered?

[Aurora]

Hi, and welcome. You are very brave handling and cooking dead animals!!. I could not do that!. Divorce him dear!!! :) :D

Don't do that! I also have a family who eat dead animals, but I don't hold that against them as I love them for who they are and not what they eat!

Welcome to the forum :)

[confucius]

hey, I also just joined the forum. I'm a twenty-one year old girl who just became vegan at the beginning of this year. My boyfriend also eats meat, but I wouldn't cook this stuff nor buy it for him. He's been cutting his meat intake for quite a while, I hope I can get him to be a vegetarian, and later on, a vegan.
Good luck for you Got2Pups, stop cooking that meat for him, perhaps he will stop eating it then (my boyfriend couldn't handle raw meat himself, i had to cut it, because he thinks it's disgusting, now I wouldn't do it, so no things like that any more).

[amphibianlegume]

My family have been vegetarian for 100 years in 2 years time, and I have been considering switching my branch of the family to veganism. I was a matter of weeks from doing this when I came into contact with a vegan that was trolling a festival website that I lurk on. This troll was very unwilling to answer the boarders of that forums questions, especially if they were difficult ones. She just repeated her self ad-infinitum and her attitude has done the vegan cause some serious damage on that forum.

I had rather incorrectly thought of veganism as vegetarianism minus dairy and eggs.

The vegan troll was subjected to much of the normal rubbish that us vegans and vegetarians face (posted images of veal calves and the likes) but along with the normal crap some very difficult and intelligent questions were raised. Her posts and the links she provided have left me with some serious doubts about veganism, the diet I was just about to embark my whole family on. Anyway some of my concerns have remained unanswered and I wondered if I might be able to get intelligent replies here, so that I may finally make the decision whether to switch or not. So here are my worries.


1. Honey.

Veganism does not permit the use of honey, now essentially this is because no animal products are exploited -- but the vegansociety's information about honey contains many 'facts' that simply aren't true -- such as wing clipping of queens, which is entirely unncessary, and not something inherent to bee keeping.

Currently I am a beekeeper, and I realise that when/if I become a vegan I will have to give up my bees, but I have a deep concern here. Bees are such a vital and fundamental creature, without them entire ecosystems collapse in a matter of years. But it is now impossible for the honeybee to survive without human intervention (this is man's fault but the damage is done) so what happens when we abandone beekeeping? Even if I was to keep my bees, as bee companions, I would have to do many things that go against the ethos of veganism: swarming would still have to be controlled; early honey, which comes from oil seed rape, would still have to be removed as it sets too hard for the bees to use and clutters up the limited space they have; diseased colonies would still have to be destroyed.

If my bees go, I am also worried about reduced pollination of my crops.

So that is my first dilemma.


2. Use of plastics.

I try to be as self-sufficient as possible, and I avoid plastics and artificial fibres as much as possible. At the moment I use wool that I collect from hedges and heather to make my clothing. I am confused as to why it is unacceptable for me to use the cast off hair of an animal. Isn't this wasteful and unecological to forego a natural product, the use of which has harmed no animal, in favour of artificial fibres, or natural ones that have come from the other side of the planet. Especially as it is my understanding that many plastics contain animal products anyway -- accept unlike my collected wool this animal fat came from the meat industry.

The vegan troll said I could not use wool because it belongs to the animal that shed it, but she admitted to throwing away her cats discarded hair.


3. Pets (companion animals)

This vegan troll kept a pair of cats, she fed them both on a vegan diet and prevented them from hunting.

Is this normal practice for vegans, or just particularly extreme behaviour. It seems wrong to me to feed a natural carnivore on a diet of your choosing and prevent the animal from expressing its natural desire to hunt. Afterall veganism is opposed to the exploitation of animals, the shackling or containment of them, so why is it okay to control your feline companion in this way. To impose your human belief systems on them seems to be asserting your dominance. Can anyone shed any light on this for me, advise me whether it is okay to feed my feline companions meat -- if it isn't okay then I would argue it is unvegan to keep a carnivorous animal at all.


4. Vegetable farming

I grow vast amounts of vegetables, and am an accredited organic producer. Currently I kill, or facilitate the deaths of millions of aphids, slugs, flies, caterpillers and the like every year -- much of my produce is sold to vegans who perhaps have not thought about the huge destruction I met out on the animal kingdom to produce my goods. If I become vegan, what methods do I use to control pests? Without control I would produce barely anything. Also currently my animals, provide a very important source of organic fertilisers -- where do I get these fertilisers from instead?

For example I keep three pigs, they are my most important animal, as they turn all my organic waste into manure and they can be turned out into a field to dig up roots, effectively plowing it for me. If I stop keeping these pigs then I'll have to buy manure from another farmer (but this manure will be a bi-product of the meat industry). But if I carry on keeping the pigs, I will have to stop them breeding, restrict their movements and eventually buy new pigs from a meat farmer.

I also have two dozen chickens, what do I do with them if I switch -- what do I do with the eggs they lay? Do I just compost them? Is it okay to compost the unfertlised eggs, if they belong to the chicken. And if I am simply going to dispose of them, why not give them away to someone that will eat them. The chickens don't want them. I understand the arguments against dairy, but I can't understand the egg problem.

5. Supplements

Is it possible for me and my children to live healthily without supplements, I really don't want to take anything unnatural into my diet, nor rely on goods I have to bring in from elsewhere.


There were many other concerns but these are my main ones, I appreciate any guidance, or help you can offer me and sorry if you have been over all this many times before.

[Kumem]

Hi

Being quite new to veganism, there are people a lot more informed on these areas than I am, but I wanted to talk about the fifth point that you make regarding supplements, simply because I am currently reading a book that is relevant to this.
Thousands of years ago, when we were hunter/gatherers, we used so much more energy and therefore needed to consume so many more calories - up to 4,500 per day. Because of this, we managed to get all of the vital vitamins and minerals that our bodies needed. Today, we rely on processed food in the main (the vast majority of the general public) and the typical diet is pretty unhealthy. However, even if you ate what was considered a perfect diet, it would be difficult to consistenty obtain all of the essential vitamins and minerals that you need. This is even more important as you get older and your body is less able to produce certain things itself. The (very long winded) point that I am trying to make is that I do not consider taking supplements unhealthy. I do think it is even more important for people fed on a typical western diet, which includes meat and dairy, than it is for a vegan though. IMO a vegan diet is nutritionally superior to the standard western diet anyway, but I still supplement.

Liz

[amphibianlegume]

Hi

Being quite new to veganism, there are people a lot more informed on these areas than I am, but I wanted to talk about the fifth point that you make regarding supplements, simply because I am currently reading a book that is relevant to this.
Thousands of years ago, when we were hunter/gatherers, we used so much more energy and therefore needed to consume so many more calories - up to 4,500 per day. Because of this, we managed to get all of the vital vitamins and minerals that our bodies needed. Today, we rely on processed food in the main (the vast majority of the general public) and the typical diet is pretty unhealthy. However, even if you ate what was considered a perfect diet, it would be difficult to consistenty obtain all of the essential vitamins and minerals that you need. This is even more important as you get older and your body is less able to produce certain things itself. The (very long winded) point that I am trying to make is that I do not consider taking supplements unhealthy. I do think it is even more important for people fed on a typical western diet, which includes meat and dairy, than it is for a vegan though. IMO a vegan diet is nutritionally superior to the standard western diet anyway, but I still supplement.

Liz


Thanyou for posting.

I understand your point, but I am not willing to supplement my diet as I want to be self-sufficient, for me a natural diet must be one that I can produce myself (or my animal companions can produce for me). I had not given much thought to this problem when I first thought of becoming vegan, but I am concerned that a switch to a vegan diet may well be healthier than what most people are eating but not healthier than my current vegetarian diet. I eat no processed or imported food at all -- and when I say imported I mean from outside my farm.

Is B12 the only vitamin/mineral that I am going to experience difficulty obtaining, or are there more?

I am aware that I can obtain a tiny amount of B12 by simply not washing my vegetables very well, but does anyone know if this would be sufficient for myself and my young children?

[Kumem]

Hi

I have no idea about specific supplements without my book :D and it is at home, as I am working (or supposed to be), but lots of other people will know more anyway and I'm sure you'll get a good response.

I don't know how you will be able to continue with the other things that you refer to: keeping bees, pigs, chickens etc. I don't know many vegan farmers!

Being vegan for most people is not just about not causing any harm to animals, it is about the understanding that these animals are not ours to do with what we choose. The bees that you have do not 'choose' to be with you and neither do the other animals, regardless of how well you treat them. You wouldn't 'keep' a person because they have the ability to say they don't want to be kept. I have a point there somewhere, but no matter how I type it, I can't articulate it properly :rolleyes:

[amphibianlegume]

I understand that the vegan ethos is that nothing belonging to the animal is ours to take or exploit. But vegans share their lives with companion animals, such as cats and dogs; really what I want to know is is it unvegan to have bees as your companion animal. And is this more unvegan than the practice of forcing a carnivorous pet to eat a vegan diet.

Unfortunately the inadvertent introduction of a mite called Varroa, means that a honeybee colony cannot survive without human intervention. I am understandably concerened that to become vegan I either have to destroy my bee colony (kill them -- which is obviously not an option), sell them (to someone that will exploit them) or leave them to die slowly without my intervention.

Why do the vegan society dwell on aspects of beekeeping that cause suffering, when none of these practices are necessary to beekeeping, surely if it purely about not taking what is not ours then these unnecessary practices are irrelevant to the argument.

I'm getting increasingly concerned that a vegan diet is not for me, it looks like it may actually be ecologically unsustainable. As without beekeepers the wild bee (non-honeybee population) alone would be incapable of producing the necessary pollination. Without animals (the manure they produce) I cannot maintain the fertility of my soil.

I had thought that veganism was the answer to the planet's food problems, but it seems this view may be wrong.

Incidentally is it okay for me to use animal manure, and is the source of the manure important to the vegan midset?

[Korn]

Amphibianlegume, IMHO it matters very little whether someone calls themselvesa vegan or not.

When you enter this forum by critizising a vegan you have come across, mentioning that you have some serious doubts about veganism, that the veganism is ecologically unsustainable, that you are getting increasingly concerned that a vegan diet is not for you, and that unfortunately veganism isn't the answer to the planet's food problem, the chance that you'll ever agree with being vegan is very small. Therefore , I must admit I have a hard time understanding why you are
considering switching your branch of the family to veganismIf someone feel that they are being 'switched' to anything by someone, isn't it very likely that they'll just oppose it anyway?

Nevertheless, I'll comment on some of the issues you bring up, for those who might be interested.



Veganism does not permit the use of honey, now essentially this is because no animal products are exploited -- but the vegansociety's information about honey contains many 'facts' that simply aren't true -- such as wing clipping of queens, which is entirely unncessary, and not something inherent to bee keeping.

First of all, veganism isn't about 'permitting', this is no religion. 'Vegan' is a term used about people who have found out that they don't want to participate in harming or killing animals, and who try their best to avoid this as much as possible. If you think The Vegan Society provide incorrect info about bees, you should contact them.


Even if I was to keep my bees, as bee companions, I would have to do many things that go against the ethos of veganism: swarming would still have to be controlled; early honey, which comes from oil seed rape, would still have to be removed as it sets too hard for the bees to use and clutters up the limited space they have; diseased colonies would still have to be destroyed.
According to yourself, you don't harm bees in any ways, so why would you change anything at all? However, I don't get it. You say that you don't harm them, but you need to destroy whole colonies?


I try to be as self-sufficient as possible, and I avoid plastics and artificial fibres as much as possible.

Sounds great, really. Many vegans will agree that natural fibers are the best solution. But doesn't 'self-sufficient' mean not being dependent on your pigs, bees, chicken and eggs?


I am confused as to why it is unacceptable for me to use the cast off hair of an animal. Vegans are against harming animals, against limiting their freedom to live a happy life. If you find some wool from an animal or some hair from a human, and want to make a jacket out of that, you are not harming anyone, are you? If you force a human to cut his hair, because you want a jacket made of human hair, you are abusing a human. If you force a certain type of life upon sheep because you want their wool, you abuse animals.

You wouldn't be harming anyone by making gloves from skin from dead humans who died of old age, but most of us don't want that. Most vegans probably wouldn't buy leather from animals that died of old age either, for the same reason that you don't want to wear gloves made from skin from your grandmother.


This vegan troll kept a pair of cats, she fed them both on a vegan diet and prevented them from hunting.
Some vegans have pets, some vegans are against having pets. Some vegans have pets they had before they became vegans, other have cats and dogs that otherwise would have been killed if someone didn't want them. We have a thread discussing this topic inside the forum.


It seems wrong to me to feed a natural carnivore on a diet of your choosing
In the unnatural situation that a cat is living in NYC, in a mouse-free building, it would be unnatural for a human who is against killing animals to go hunting for mice for her cat. Commercial cat food is containing stuff cats never would eat naturally. It's not natural for a cat to drink cow's milk either. I also understand that 'cat-owners', vegan or not, don't want to have a cat bringing almost dead birds or mice into their homes. All in all, it's an unnatural situation. It's also not natural to try to force a cat not to kill mice, and if the cat is spending a lot of time outdoors, there's not even a way to prevent it (in most cases).

A number of vegans choose not to have pets for these reasons, so if you really consider going vegan, it looks like you possibly, in the future, would be one of them. You already have cats, what kind of natural diet do they get?


Currently I kill, or facilitate the deaths of millions of aphids, slugs, flies, caterpillers and the like every year -- much of my produce is sold to vegans who perhaps have not thought about the huge destruction I met out on the animal kingdom to produce my goods. If I become vegan, what methods do I use to control pests? I suggest that you try to search for information on bio-dynamic / veganic / 'vegan organic' agriculture. And to those non-vegan readers who think 'why not kill animals for meat, when we unintentionally cause death to insects', please think again. Killing one person/animal/insect unintentionally doesn't justify killing another person/animal/insect intentionally. Don't forget that millions of instects are killed in agriculture that is only meant to provide food for animal farms...


Also currently my animals, provide a very important source of organic fertilisers -- where do I get these fertilisers from instead?
As you know, there are companies that make exploiting animals even more profitable by selling 'waste' from the chicken industry as fertilizers. Others, like Duke Energy, use the same 'waste' to sell energy. But see above, above alternative veganic / vegan organic etc.


For example I keep three pigs, they are my most important animal, as they turn all my organic waste into manure and they can be turned out into a field to dig up roots, effectively plowing it for me.
As a comment to your question about what you would do with your bees if you should not be a beekeeper anymore (in your original post, before you edited it), what do you do with your pigs and chicken when they get old?


If I stop keeping these pigs then I'll have to buy manure from another farmer (but this manure will be a bi-product of the meat industry).
Please check out our thread about manure.


But if I carry on keeping the pigs, I will have to stop them breeding, restrict their movements and eventually buy new pigs from a meat farmer. Why?


I also have two dozen chickens, what do I do with them if I switch
Some people in your situation might find someone who wants them, who would have bought/killed some (other) chicken anyway. By giving their own chicken away, they figure that they reduce the chicken trade business by the same amount of chicken that they give away or sell. Others would keep them and let them die of old age. There are other solutions too. What do you think is the best solution?


what do I do with the eggs they lay? Do I just compost them? Is it okay to compost the unfertlised eggs, if they belong to the chicken. And if I am simply going to dispose of them, why not give them away to someone that will eat them. The chickens don't want them. I understand the arguments against dairy, but I can't understand the egg problem. Do what you think is right, but read this thread about vegan view on eggs (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1370&highlight=eggs) thread first.



Is it possible for me and my children to live healthily without supplements Whether you eat vegan or not, you need to monitor your B12 levels, due to a lot of circumstances discussed in our four B12 forums. There are many reasons an increasing number of people (vegans, lacto-vegetarians and meat-eaters) get B12 deficient. Some of them are mentioned here: http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196


I really don't want to take anything unnatural into my diet Sounds good. What is your natural B12 source right now?



Now, please let us know why you, in spite of all your comments, still consider going vegan; you must have a very strong attraction towards veganism since you are still considering it in spite of all your comments... or... you're not here only to argue against veganism, are you? ;)

[Korn]

I understand your point, but I am not willing to supplement my diet as I want to be self-sufficient, for me a natural diet must be one that I can produce myself (or my animal companions can produce for me). Again, if you think that animals are here for to provide us with nutrients, may I ask you why you are considering going vegan? Where do you think the animals get their nutrients from?

According to a study, an average meat eater are deficient in seven nutrients, while an average vegan is deficient in three. If you are never exposed to stuff that is reducing B12, like chlorinated water, never eat plants exposed to chemicals that kills micro-organisms and B12 (like acid rain), if you only eat fresh food, and consider millions of other things mentioned in many other posts and on many other sites......... in short, in a natural world, I find it 99% certain that you would get enough B12 from plants, maybe even only from water.

We are not living in a 'natural' world. This means that people who consume a lot of B12 (meat eaters) also are at risk, because they often drink a lot of coffee, use a lot of sugar much sugar, expose themselves to pollution, maybe tobacco, oral contraceptives and so on. In this world, people are less and less 'B12 safe'.



I had not given much thought to this problem when I first thought of becoming vegan, but I am concerned that a switch to a vegan diet may well be healthier than what most people are eating but not healthier than my current vegetarian diet. Do you mean lacto-vegetarian diet when you write 'vegetarian'? Have you read about all the health risks associated with dairy products? I admire your interest in living a natural life, but (if you mean lacto-veg when you say 'vegetarian') - why is that you find it natural for humans to drink cow's milk, which, as we all know, even adult cow's don't drink? No other animals drink mother's milk all life, and definitely not from another species.



I eat no processed or imported food at all -- and when I say imported I mean from outside my farm. That's great, but where did you find those pigs, if not outside your farm? If they were there when you got them, how did they get there, if not from outside the farm?;)

Don't get me wrong... the macrobiotic community focus on eating food grown locally, and that makes a lot of sense to me, at least as a rule to be lived by in a natural world where people won't settle in places where they can't grow the food they need locally.


I am aware that I can obtain a tiny amount of B12 by simply not washing my vegetables very well, but does anyone know if this would be sufficient for myself and my young children? There are no studies showing that this will be sufficient for anyone, and not only that, even if it would be, you wouldn't be safe, because, vegan, lacto-veg or meat eater, you might drink something right now that kills the B12 you consumed 10 minutes ago.

[John]

I can't really tell if you want help becoming vegan or if you want to debate. I would advise looking at things from the animals' point of view. Try your best not to make them suffer and try to respect their rights as living individuals. For me veganism is the best way. Someone else might walk the highway and scavenge roadkill. That non-vegan might cause less harm than I do. Look around the forum and you might find some answers. I know it is cumbersome but the search button helps.

[kokopelli]

4. Vegetable farming

I grow vast amounts of vegetables, and am an accredited organic producer. Currently I kill, or facilitate the deaths of millions of aphids, slugs, flies, caterpillers and the like every year -- much of my produce is sold to vegans who perhaps have not thought about the huge destruction I met out on the animal kingdom to produce my goods. If I become vegan, what methods do I use to control pests? Without control I would produce barely anything. Also currently my animals, provide a very important source of organic fertilisers -- where do I get these fertilisers from instead?

For example I keep three pigs, they are my most important animal, as they turn all my organic waste into manure and they can be turned out into a field to dig up roots, effectively plowing it for me. If I stop keeping these pigs then I'll have to buy manure from another farmer (but this manure will be a bi-product of the meat industry). But if I carry on keeping the pigs, I will have to stop them breeding, restrict their movements and eventually buy new pigs from a meat farmer.

Hello amphibianlegume,

How do you mete out destruction on your pests?
How do your current pest control methods fit in with your self-sufficiency aspirations? I mean, do you have to buy in your organic pest controls?

Why can't you compost your organic waste without feeding it to your pigs?
If you're a vegetarian, but allow your pigs to breed freely, what will you do with piglets which are surplus to your requirements?

I'm also involved in horticulture, but we don't use animal manure at all, we cut and compost green stuff, collect leafmould and use green manures. We use barrier methods of pest control, which don't involve killing. However, agricultural fleece may be unacceptable to you, because it's made from polypropylene. Maybe your pig manure is rather high in nitrates, producing lush growth which is more attractive to pests. Manures are also vectors for human diseases, if they're not properly composted.

Of course some animals will inevitably be killed as a result of our horticultural activities, just as they are in everyday life, eg insects getting squished on car windscreens, but I don't deliberately harm other animals. I believe that minimising harm is a worthwhile goal.

I agree that it's good to avoid the use of plastics as far as possible, particularly those which will not biodegrade, and while they're produced from mineral oil. But there are developments in plant oil based, biodegradable and fully recyclable plastics and synthetic materials. And sheep's wool, even when collected from hedgerows, comes from sheep bred for meat, which are effectively deforesting our uplands, drastically increasing the risk of flooding in the watersheds. Also plant fibres don't have to be imported from the other side of the world, hemp will grow very well in temperate climates and could easily provide most of our fabric. Following prohibition in the 1930s, the knowledge and equipment necessary for hemp culture and processing was destroyed in the UK and US, but is slowly making a comeback now it's cultivation is permitted in the EU.

You say you're entirely self-sufficient in food, and this makes you reluctant to depend on supplements for B12. But of course you're currently dependent on the epitome of high technology to read this message. Personally, I see nothing wrong with using B12 which has been produced by industrial methods, I'm dependent on technology in so many ways...I bet you use a car, agricultural machinery etc as well as your computer. But in any case, I've read that B12 can in fact be produced by some plants, notably comfrey, although I've done little research into this myself. But there's loads of stuff about B12 in the B12 thread!

[Realfood Mary]

Actually, I wouldn't debate with the person who started this thread. I believe that he has come off the Glastonbury website to annoy vegans. A vegan started a thread there a while ago, asking if there were other vegans to meet up with her at the festival. Her thread got hijacked by people posting pictures of meat, cartoons of road kill, and abusive comments about how vegans get increasingly stupid as the generations of non animal consumption continue. It got very nasty indeed, and the vegan eventually got annoyed that her thread had been hijacked in such a mean spirited way.

After that whenever she posted anything she got pounced on by people threatening to come around to her house and butcher a lamb on her doorstep.

Strangely, the more upset she got, the more she was accused of being a troll.

Anyhow, reading this guys comments, they do not come across as someone whose family has been veggie for a hundred years. He is remarkably ignorant of vegetarianism. I believe he is one of the people who attacked this other womans thread, and now that she has gone quiet he has come here to take the mickey out of vegans. Hence this ridiculous story that a vegan put him off veganism.

By the way, I am not the "vegan troll" that he describes. She wrote to me upset asking what she should do, as she had been made to feel so unwelcome, and I wrote as a vegan campaigner to the site to complain about the abusive ganging up on the vegan. It turns out that at least some of the people I was complaining to had joined in on the verbal gang bang, and therefore the victim was banned as being a troll.

Sadly after a couple of weeks of insulting the vegan in her absence it would appear that they have got bored of insulting vegans behind their back and someone has come to have a laugh at our expense.

Please could this thread be locked and its author banned? You would have to see what happened on the Glastonbury Festival website to know what I am talking about. Though I imagine some of the more obscene and threatening comments may have been removed.

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I agree wholeheartedly with what kokopelli has said.

As an aspiring self-sufficient type myself I have found vegan organic methods work very well for me. Indeed, growing my family's food and the potential of vegan organics is what attracted me to become vegan in the first place.

The combination of green manures, compost, leafmoulds and shredded branches, when incorporated into a no-dig system, works on both technical and ecological levels. It enables the best realisation of the pragmatic but ethical living which Kokopelli and Korn have outlined. I find the prospect of vegan/organic self sufficiency being adopted more widely in our society a very exciting and hopeful one.

I sincerely hope you will look at the work of the Vegan Organic Trust (http://www.veganorganic.net/) and follow your instincts to the next level.

[terrace max]

Apologies Mary, our replies crossed - no disrespect to your position intended.