PDA

View Full Version : i found this to be quite infuriating



judashearts
Jan 11th, 2010, 12:48 PM
so i was perusing some dating website that i'm currently addicted to (cause it has some fun quizzes)... anyway, i found this forum post about veganism and it really upset me, which i know i should never let anti-vegan things do but i just can't help myself sometimes. it's really very long, but if you have the time or will please read it and rip it apart so i feel better. i put the link to the original post at the bottom. <3

Well I found myself getting into a verbal tit for tat at my work against a vegan because I find the entire lifestyle to be fake and pretentious. The fact that it was at work was a lapse in professionalism however I do believe some of my reasoning and my complete disdain for arrogant hypocrites does give me justification my disdain for that life style.

My first Gripe against Vegans is the fact they maintain that they live a cruelty free life style. This couldn't be father from the truth. For example if a vegan orders a vegi sandwich, depending on what ingredients are used, most if not all of that sandwich has hurt or killed or displaced an animal.

First let's examine simple bread. Now one may believe that bread doesn't harm anything, which is true bread and the act of eating it does not directly kill an animal unlike eating meat. But in the process of making bread that single piece of bread could be stained with the guilt of taking an animals life. This is due to the extraction methods involved in the making of bread. Let's start with wheat.

Now as many of you know wheat doesn't rain down from the heavens out of Santa's sleigh. It is grown in the ground. In order to extract it one must use a wheat thresher I'm pretty sure many vegans have heard this argument. Essential what it boils down to is this thresher kills animals in the process now many run away but some end up dying anyways and vegans know this. However they contend that accidental deaths are not the same as intentional deaths but fail to recognize that once that it is a known fact that eating bread accidentally kills animals then the act of eating bread is still an intentional murder. Thus eliminating they idea that vegans, who claim to live a cruelty free lifestyle, actually practice that. That is just with the thresher alone.

On top of that the environmental impact of having a wheat field must be considered as well. As well as the pesticide impact used on said wheat field and other methods at which to protect the field from unwanted consumption.

Now let us move to the lettuce. Pesticides are leading cause in many "accidental" deaths in animals when it comes to lettuce. I would bet that Environmental impact such as land use would be a close second. Now for those of you who don't know about bio-magnification I'll give a summary. Essential pesticides just don't affect small animals. Certain toxins have long lasting if not permanent effects on the body. When small animals eat these toxin they begin to concentrate these toxin into their forms. Then the next animal in the food chain eats a bunch of these animals that have concentrated the toxin thus concentrating it further. Biomag tends to affect apex predators the most cause them to develop defects and disorders as well as genetic mutations. Billions of animals suffer because of this. This, despite being a side effect, is a fact that is well known but ignored by vegans. However in knowing this without taking action or refusing to eliminate it entirely from their lifestyle still makes them murders and cruel people. They are apathetic even to their own cause when they claim to live a cruel free life style.

I could go on and on about the ingredients in this vegetarian sandwich but I believe people get the picture. To summarize: nature is a competitive environment, so unless you can find a food that is specifically for humans, no matter what, the act of eating any food will still reflect a cruelty to some sort of animal. The degree of which depends on extraction method and farming method of such food.

Essentially to be a Cruel Free Vegan one must starve to death.

However to further drive the point home of how hypocritical and nauseating the claim of "cruel free" Vegan one must look at the lifestyle of the Vegan. If the Vegan eats he or she is a hypocrite, if they wear cloths, drive cars, live in a home that had recently been built, read books, use the internet, use electricity, live in an American lifestyle in general they are already a hypocrite. All these things required some sort of cruelty to animals to obtain. We as a society are so far removed on the impact we have on the environment that even vegans despite heading in the right direction, still make a bunch of logical fallacies on the statement of a cruel free lifestyle through willful ignorance or stupidity.

HOWEVER, to change the subject and give vegans credit where credit is due, the goal of the Vegan lifestyle that to substantial reduce our cruelty foot print is something these people have got right on the nose. The claims that our farming methods are completely unnecessary is in fact quite true. The level at which we farm animals is so excessive that we use up more resources which could be allocated to more greens, fruits, nuts, and essential less cruel forms of food. The level in which we eat meat is also excessive in the American diet which I believe on average is up to five times the amount of protein we need to live comfortably and healthy.

First I would like the mention that the figures that vegans use in terms of the economical efficiency of eating meat is most likely true. I can't source the exact figures but it takes substantially more to resources to raise cattle and pigs then it does to make other forms of food for human consumption. It is also true that there are substantial risks to EXCESSIVE meat eating. One only has to look at the price of chicken compared to the price of vegetables and look at the actually resource cost to see that there is something wrong about meat costing less then vegetables. Though the suggestion that not eating meat and getting all your nutrients from other sources is healthier is complete bull. It would be like suggesting that eating nothing but meat is healthy which is entirely counter intuitive.

For example it is well documented that live a lifestyle of sustenance where one is only eating the food that gets them by is more unhealthy. Scientific research is starting to show that people who eat towards a vegetarian life style often suffer from arthritic conditions and tooth decay. They even have lower life expectancy. Studies of population from India show that a vegetarian lifestyle comes with health risks. Vegans love to point out that it's probably because they are not doing it right or eating the right amounts of foods. Conversely native American bones hbave reveal that despite the fact they had a diet rich in wild meat they live longer lives with relatively fewer health issues including heart attack. Ignoring the millions of years of human evolution in which we have eaten meat and it's widely accepted theory that our own brain and the ability to even discuss this topic would not have evolved without the consumption of meat, we are then left with an efficiency question. Exactly how much of non meat substitute do we need to make up for the lack of meat in order to live as well as we would with meat?

This question is important because it would then force us to confront with the amount greens we would need to farm and how much more animals we would need to displace and affect and even kill depending on the extraction method.

To get an idea of how tricky this is we must look at the fact that Humans are not as good at digesting greens and other non meat material then an actual animal evolved for that purpose would. Saying the goal is to live healthy and happy with as little suffer as possible it is possible that the amount of food necessary per ca pita for humans then it would be for cows. Now then with that in mind ecologically speaking the impact from the amount we would need to farm to substitute meat may actaully harm more animals in the long run based on the environmental impact then if we were to simply eat like we should. I must remind people that we probably only need 1 or 2 intakes of meat PER WEEK in order to live the healthiest we can live.

For proof of this, one of the healthiest people in the world Jack Lalanne is NOT a Vegan. He is 95 and works out 2 hours every day and I am certain that he would not be here if he had a vegan diet. HOWEVER he does have a substantially reduced amount of meat in his diet and focus on fruits and vegetables with some dairy.

Going back to the point however it is true based on scientific studies that meat is necessary and in fact proven to help achieve longer living and quality of life. Veganism is questionable and sketchy and their claim so far has been based on the excesses of our currently average lifestyle. There is a point because other animals can extract more nutrients out of the food they eat then we can and that we can extract more nutrients out of meat then they can then the matter of economical energy exchange is clear. We must eat meat to live good lives.

It is also possible and I believe very likely that if we eat the way we should in terms of meat we will actually have less of a cruelty foot print then if we continue our lifestyle or live the ways of the vegan using current farming methods.

What does this all mean?

That the only cruel Free Vegan is a starving one. They need to change their claims of Cruelty life style since it IS hypocritical and a bold face lie, by perhaps changing it to some statement that actually accepts reality such as cruelty reduced lifestyle.

That Vegans in general operate on a bunch of logical fallacies or ignorance in terms of most their claims

That Vegans are VERY correct that the way we eat meat and farm it is totally UNNECESSARY especially when speaking of it economically.

That Veganism is a good albeit very annoying attempt to reduce our unethical treatment of animals.

Now I know i left out the question of animal testing however in all fairness and disclosure I'm generally not against animal testing for scientific purposes. I am against cosmetic testing. I'm against fur. I against game hunting unless eating is involved and still is unnecessary. I'm against not eating meat for many reason. One of which is that certain animals quality of life would diminish greatly without human intervention although their life would certainly be longer in most cases. I'm for eating more cheese and eggs and dairy as a substitute for direct meat. I'm for changing the conditions at which we farm animals to reduce or even eliminate the suffering that they endure because of farming techniques. I believe that animals should live comfortable before they are struck down for food. I believe in responsible stewardship of animals and that my definition of that depends on long term economical factors and less on short sighted ethical decision making. And furthermore I believe in Moderation.

original post: http://www.okcupid.com/forum?tid=4663620488813103702

Ruby Rose
Jan 11th, 2010, 01:26 PM
Seriously, don't get involved. The poster has thought through some of the issues (for example, use of resources), so there's every hope they'll apply their brain and research the rest. They're not hostile, just uninformed and therefore defensive.

Barry
Jan 11th, 2010, 01:41 PM
Studies of population from India show that a vegetarian lifestyle comes with health risks. Vegans love to point out that it's probably because they are not doing it right or eating the right amounts of foods.

No, it's because a lot of vegetarians in india are from lower castes, or have a lower place in society. A lot of them smoke and drink like lunatics as well. They generally just have a crap lifestyle. The WHO has the real figures on the benefits of being veggie.


That the only cruel Free Vegan is a starving one. They need to change their claims of Cruelty life style since it IS hypocritical and a bold face lie

I think every vegan realises that there is no such thing as a cruelty free life. We do the best we can with what we have, we live in a non-vegan world and ultimately have to play by its rules.


For proof of this, one of the healthiest people in the world Jack Lalanne is NOT a Vegan. He is 95 and works out 2 hours every day and I am certain that he would not be here if he had a vegan diet.

Donald Watson.

I couldn't be bothered answering any of the rest of his criticisms. He's got a preconceived idea of vegans as head in the clouds idealists. He's being 'willfully ignorant' (his words) of the fact that places like VF exist, where we talk about and debate some of the issues he mentioned. Ignore.

judashearts
Jan 11th, 2010, 01:47 PM
yay thank you. you guys are awesome. i just sent him a really nice message telling him that putting people down in a public forum for a lifestyle they choose is closed minded and rude, and that he should not look down on anyone for trying to better themselves. it bothers me a lot when people preach that their lifestyle is better than anyone else's. what works for me may not work for someone else and that's okay, i've never been a preachy vegan because that's not what i'm about. i will let people know why i chose the lifestyle i did, but never put them down for eating meat because that's what works for them.

okay i'm done ranting. thanks for the encouraging words. <3

sandra
Jan 11th, 2010, 07:31 PM
I find a lot of what they have to say quite juvenile.

Spud Addict
Jan 11th, 2010, 08:23 PM
I agree with what you're saying, judashearts. If people ask about my lifestyle and seem genuinely interested, I'll tell them the facts and my reasoning for my own personal choice.

I really don't like when people go out of their way to belittle another's beliefs or culture. What is the point? These people spend so much of their lives thinking up the most pedantic arguments against people who are just trying to minimise their impact on other creatures. I find it really quite sad.

Charlotte
Jan 12th, 2010, 12:32 AM
I'd use the words of Minor Threat "At least I'm fucking trying; what the fuck have you done?"

Veganism won't cure the world's ills but we are doing more than this dude probably ever will .

Some people just need to sound off, sit back and let them get on with it :)

Prawnil
Jan 12th, 2010, 01:21 AM
This is really brilliant. The frequency this kind of thinking shows up is great; human thought can be so cosmic-scale funny. This sort of deranged reasoning seems almost universal and always seems to me a bit like;
"Oh, Christ, my day-to-day lifestyle is churning out such a lot of pollution... Can I totally eradicate that effect of my living? Nah... Ah well, in that case I'd better start a tyre fire in my back garden and maintain it until I die, because after all: improvement is hypocrisy! And to disagree is to be an idiot. (P.S. Moderation in all things destructive, atrocious and generally brutal!)"

Perfect sense. Perfect sense.

About 90% of the thing can be dismissed outright the moment the person claims that vegans consider their living to be cruelty free. Though if I could be arsed I'd take issue with describing 'collateral damage' of generally relatively simpler species while trying to feed the population at the scale required as cruelty - basically equating it with deliberate slaughter.

Whole load a balls, no problem :thumbsup:.

ellaminnowpea
Jan 12th, 2010, 04:09 AM
Well... I didn't read the whole thing, but honestly... If someone puts that much energy into bashing another person or their lifestyle, they have some issues to work out. Anger management/ passive aggressive... idk. He sounds really threatened by us. HAHAH!! But someone like that isn't really worth our time or energy. :undecided: Oh so vegans aren't curing orphans with AIDS in Africa, so might as well kill thousands of animals and pollute the environment... If you can't do everything right, you might as well give up and do everything wrong...? Wish he'd use this amount of thought/ time LOGICALLY.

judashearts
Jan 12th, 2010, 08:31 AM
Well... I didn't read the whole thing, but honestly... If someone puts that much energy into bashing another person or their lifestyle, they have some issues to work out. Anger management/ passive aggressive... idk. He sounds really threatened by us. HAHAH!! But someone like that isn't really worth our time or energy. :undecided: Oh so vegans aren't curing orphans with AIDS in Africa, so might as well kill thousands of animals and pollute the environment... If you can't do everything right, you might as well give up and do everything wrong...? Wish he'd use this amount of thought/ time LOGICALLY.

yessss! your post made me feel leaps better, well on top of the fact that i'm attacking this amazing vegan cheeseburger right now. hahaha. thanks. :)

twinkle toes
Jan 13th, 2010, 04:09 PM
Hmm I felt that the part about accidentally killing animals with a wheat thresher was clutching at straws a little! I get the impression from reading this that the person who wrote it would actually like to do something good for the world like going vegan but can’t be bothered. How is being vegan fake or pretentious?

It’s funny how people have this preconceived idea about vegans being negative preachy holier-than-thou types when in fact it’s a very positive way to think about things and live your life. What exactly has this person done to try and make the world a better place anyway?

fiamma
Jan 13th, 2010, 08:21 PM
I couldn't be bothered reading the whole thing, but that whole "vegans are so hypocritical because millions of insects die to raise crops" cracks me up every time. What do they think the animals they eat are fed on? Rocks? Air? If they want to use that argument they haven't got a leg to stand on, because they're killing at least double the animals vegans are; those who unfortunately die during the various agricultural processes, then those who die under the butcher's knife. Honestly. :rolleyes:

BJJNick
Jan 14th, 2010, 01:52 PM
This guy is a retard. I'm pretentious because I don't eat animal products? Riiiiiggghhht.

These types of people are not worthy of arguing with online. In person these are the exact types of people I love to embarrass.

karmafunk
Jan 14th, 2010, 02:35 PM
OMG, why can't people see that doing even the smallest thing can have a large impact. Even if a meat eater decides not to eat meat for 3 days out of a week it really is making a difference. This idiot has obviously not done proper research.

Unfortunately there are hundreds of people who like to rant like this without having a positive intention or purpose. I have wondered if it is inferiority complex, low self esteem, an agrumentative nature, nasty for nasty sake, or just plain "2 brain celll" syndrome!

Best response is no response.

karmafunk
Jan 14th, 2010, 02:41 PM
This is really brilliant. The frequency this kind of thinking shows up is great; human thought can be so cosmic-scale funny. This sort of deranged reasoning seems almost universal and always seems to me a bit like;
"Oh, Christ, my day-to-day lifestyle is churning out such a lot of pollution... Can I totally eradicate that effect of my living? Nah... Ah well, in that case I'd better start a tyre fire in my back garden and maintain it until I die, because after all: improvement is hypocrisy! And to disagree is to be an idiot. (P.S. Moderation in all things destructive, atrocious and generally brutal!)"

Perfect sense. Perfect sense.

About 90% of the thing can be dismissed outright the moment the person claims that vegans consider their living to be cruelty free. Though if I could be arsed I'd take issue with describing 'collateral damage' of generally relatively simpler species while trying to feed the population at the scale required as cruelty - basically equating it with deliberate slaughter.

Whole load a balls, no problem :thumbsup:.

That's very well put. Loving the tyre fire analogy. I may use that.

Zero
Jan 14th, 2010, 05:18 PM
The person raises some points about manufacturing processes that are certainly true - however just because making bread might indirectly harm some animals doesn't mean we should all go on a "free for all" and just eat meat again.

The one thing that is clear is that the person writing that does not understand the idea and definition behind veganism, which is essentially to live a live a lifestyle that doesn't harm others to greatest extent possible.

judashearts
Jan 15th, 2010, 02:07 AM
so like i said, i sent him a message about his forum post...

my reply to his forum post in a private message:
Hi. I read your post in the forums on veganism and your hatred of it and I just wanted to let you know that it made me very sad. I am a vegan, and a very open-minded one, and to see you put down one type of people makes you look more the bad person than a vegan does for trying to do the least damage possible to a living thing that feels pain. I do not preach my veganism, nor do I look down on meat-eaters. That is simply the lifestyle I chose because I care about my body, animals, and the earth. I understand that animals die and there are living things killed in the process of making my food at times, but to intentionally kill an animal so that I can fill my belly seems selfish to me, when I can more easily pick a piece of fruit off a tree and keep my body healthier at the same time. I'm not telling you that your lifestyle is wrong because that is the one that works best for you, I'm just asking you to please keep an open mind to the lifestyles of others. I'm sure you would not like to be ridiculed in a forum because of the life choices you've made to try and better yourself. I hope you had a wonderful weekend. :)

his reply back to me:
I actually have no problem with veganism I just don't like it when some vegans use the label cruelty free when they eat food that uses pesticides and wear cloths that damage the environment. I just don't think any political cause can go around saying a lie with out being called on it. Personally i question the health benefit of going vegan a lot of sources say it's not entirely healthy. However fighting against Factory Farming is the greatest thing vegans do and that' something that must be stopped. Personally I don't have any guilt eating another animal but I am very disappointed that they have to suffer so much just to bring me food. But I'm an economic person. If meat is cheap then I eat that. If vegetable is cheap I'll eat that. I go more towards to salads and it does affect my choice but not to the level of a vegan.

When I decide to write stuff like this I tend to go on my soap box and complain very harshly. I do have an open mind but a closed one to contradiction.

Thanks for the email and I hope a happy valentines day for you.

i thought that was pretty funny. he seems like a nice enough guy, just needs to vent about things that don't concern him because he's unhappy with his life. oh well. :)

karmafunk
Jan 15th, 2010, 10:17 AM
He is almost retracting his rant!

Good work judashearts.

glovesforfoxes
Jan 15th, 2010, 11:01 AM
^ He isn't really retracting it. If you read his rant & his response, they're both pretty consistent, even if he is wrong on a number of points, e.g "People on vegetarian diets have shorter lives," "Scientific research is now showing veganism is unhealthy" etc. We are evidence that it does, at the very least, allow us to live day to day lives, even if it predisposes us to certain illnesses (to be honest, I'd prefer to have a higher risk of arthritis than a higher risk of cancer)

A closed mind to contradiction is the most dangerous thing there is.

karmafunk
Jan 15th, 2010, 11:52 AM
The way I saw it was that his response wasn't a rant and he was no longer mentioning the crap he did in the first few paragraphs of his intial post.:amazed_ani:

I think that he still has his beliefs but no longer took the conversation down Ridiculous Street in Ignoramous Town, which is where he lives. :D

Zero
Jan 15th, 2010, 01:19 PM
On his point about veganism being unhealthy clearly he's not actually researched that properly, point him in the direction of the American Dietetics Association who state that well planned (and anyones diet should be well planned) vegetarian and vegan diets are suitable for all stages of life.

http://www.eatright.org/About/Content.aspx?id=8357
(The full PDF report is available on that page too)



"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases,"

"Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the lifecycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes...."

herbwormwood
Jan 15th, 2010, 06:06 PM
Some people love ro debate many issues such as politics, philosophy, etc, some people are bored and irritated by debates, or find them pointless. If you like to debate, go ahead and debate with your workmate, or people on dating sites, but if you don't like to debate, just say that there are many sides to te issue and you happen to believe veganism is the best way for you personally and they are entitled to believe whatever they wish.
If you like to debate, there are huge quantities of pro vegan facts on the internet. But be prepared to go on ad ifinitum.

judashearts
Jan 16th, 2010, 09:42 PM
Some people love ro debate many issues such as politics, philosophy, etc, some people are bored and irritated by debates, or find them pointless. If you like to debate, go ahead and debate with your workmate, or people on dating sites, but if you don't like to debate, just say that there are many sides to te issue and you happen to believe veganism is the best way for you personally and they are entitled to believe whatever they wish.
If you like to debate, there are huge quantities of pro vegan facts on the internet. But be prepared to go on ad ifinitum.

wanting to debate is awesome, if it makes him happy then cool that's fine for him BUT he needs to debate on topics he's actually researched because he obviously hasn't done that with veganism. hahahaha. to debate on a topic he knows nothing about makes him look like an ignorant asshole.

Cherry
Jan 16th, 2010, 10:16 PM
Whole load a balls:thumbsup:.

Yep.