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Johnstuff
Aug 17th, 2010, 04:11 PM
Johnstuff, what makes you think that veganism and capitalism are not compatible? Just interested in what makes you think that. Personally, I've been leaning towards socialism recently myself. The more I think about it, the more sense it seems to make to me as an economic system.

That said, I'm still a "baby" in my studies of economics (much of it is over my head... I really need a simple introduction to it, haha), but it does seem to me that, while consumers do have power in a capitalist system, to "vote with their forks" as we vegans are doing, to get all/most consumers voting "the right way" (which is what is necessary to get the capitalists to, say, provide only vegan products, if this was the only thing in demand) requires education. Considering all the ties between industry, government, mass media, education, etc. it's no small project to try to educate people to make the right choices.

There's also the problem that in some cases it's not enough to know how to make the right choices: you also need to be able to afford to do so. For instance, if my partner and I could afford it, we would buy organic every time it was available. Being at the bottom of the proletariat, we can't afford to make the choice we want every time, we can't afford to always "vote" as we want to.

Bearing that in mind, though, I'm not sure why a vegan capitalist society wouldn't be possible. Capitalists could still make significant profits getting us to produce and selling highly processed vegan foods, foods packed with salt and sugar, and other various junk foods we don't need. Pepsi and Coke are vegan, after all, as are Lays plain chips. Having a population of junk-food loving, sedentary, overweight vegans would also help sustain the drug industry, if not to the extent that a meat-eating population does at least to some extent. Drug companies would benefit from inexperienced vegans suffering disease from deficiencies, and supplement companies would benefit from more knowledgeable vegans who want supplements or fortified foods (which can be sold for more than ordinary foods).

This might be material for a new thread, LOL. :)

That's an interesting question...

Well to me it seems capitalism is all about exploitation, exploiting the weak/vunerable in order to make a profit. Veganism (IMO) is about not exploiting the weak/vunerable.

I blame capitalism for a lot of the crap that humanity does, promoted by the corporate media that love to equate capitalism with freedom and any alternative as bad.

In your example of 'vegan' junk food being promoted I feel that it is not really vegan to promote things like that...it can be a grey area but if you are advancing yourself by harming others then I feel that's not a very vegan thing to do.


It could be human nature though. Perhaps whatever 'system' we have our own selfishness/fear will lead us to destuction. Perhaps if we were a more enlightened race/species then we would have no need of a 'system' because individuals would be kept in check by their own concience?

emzy1985
Aug 25th, 2010, 09:15 AM
You know what? I'd love to live in a vegan village! Not only because Capitalism sucks and living with like minded people is so much better than constant conflict, but because vegans are normally more open to ideas about sexism, homophobia and rascism...although ofcourse not all but you could just kick them out if they didn't comply. :P

leedsveg
Aug 26th, 2010, 10:08 AM
You know what? I'd love to live in a vegan village! Not only because Capitalism sucks and living with like minded people is so much better than constant conflict, but because vegans are normally more open to ideas about sexism, homophobia and rascism...although ofcourse not all but you could just kick them out if they didn't comply. :P

I like the idea of a nice peaceful village emzy but I don't like the idea of kicking anybody out. I would hope that dissatisfied people, but who were like-minded among themselves, would leave and form their own peaceful village. This is how the kibbutz I went to in 1969 was started. I've visited Amirim, the Israeli veggie village mentioned by saflett in an earlier posting and it was so relaxed and peaceful, it was unbelievable. I wasn't vegan then otherwise I would have asked if anybody there had ever put the case for adopting veganism totally.

lv:bigsmile:

cruelkitti
Aug 27th, 2010, 04:38 PM
We're talking city or town or whatever, right? Not a commune? I like the idea of living in a town that is primarily vegan, however it'd be hard to tell anyone that wasn't vegan to get out...and I'm not sure that I'd want to in some cases.
I often daydream of starting a commune, but I could only do that with close friends and I don't deal well with restrictions. I'm a personal and independent person and I sometimes don't want to be social or to have to follow any kinda social codes.
I think if there were a town/village that was primarily vegan maybe omnis wouldn't really want to live there anyway...As long as it didn't turn into some angry militant town that ends up waging war on the surrounding omni-infested (lol) towns and becomes a target for angry omnis who hate vegans (there are a lot of those around here).
Also, the way some responded to this thread makes it sound like a commune...like you'd be required to do business strictly in the "village". While buying completely local is admirable, I can't do it. In fact, I'm nomadic...if I have to live in one place for too long then I'll find excuses to leave frequently...("oooh, they only carry durian in that one city that is 4 hours away from here and I really want some..."

violet7
Sep 5th, 2010, 12:14 PM
I've heard of some (almost) completely vegan village in Papua New Guinea ;) ... There is very fertile soil and in general great natural conditions to live eating fresh vegetables and fruits every day. My source says even people are much more open-minded than majority of Europeans. Sounds great:D

Angel of the North
Sep 5th, 2010, 03:09 PM
Vegan camp in the UK is a great way to experience living in an all vegan community for 2 weeks every summer. They should be updating their website soon to include details of where they will be going in 2011:

http://www.vegancamp.co.uk/

emzy1985
Sep 19th, 2010, 11:19 AM
Vegan camp in the UK is a great way to experience living in an all vegan community for 2 weeks every summer. They should be updating their website soon to include details of where they will be going in 2011:

http://www.vegancamp.co.uk/

I'm definately considering this for 2011. My little sister has been vegan for about 6 months and I'd really like her to meet other vegan kids.

Glossgirl
Sep 19th, 2010, 11:40 AM
this place in the himalayas :) http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?4013-5000-year-old-tribe-still-on-a-vegan-diet&highlight=vegan+tribe

Kimberlily1983
Oct 31st, 2010, 04:47 AM
In your example of 'vegan' junk food being promoted I feel that it is not really vegan to promote things like that...it can be a grey area but if you are advancing yourself by harming others then I feel that's not a very vegan thing to do.

In the half year + that I've been vegan, I've been thinking a lot about these issues, and have recently been thinking about the definition of veganism and what it entails. I've been thinking about how historically humans have been seen as different from, separate from animals, and how we should instead acknowledge ourselves as part of the animal kingdom. This sounds pretty straight-forward, but people rarely take it to its full conclusions: this means that animal liberation and animal rights INCLUDES human liberation/rights. Not only are these things not opposed to one another, one is a part of the other (the same way we could talk about chimpanzee rights, cat rights, rat rights, etc. being part of the larger category of animal rights). It means that buying clothes produced through human exploitation, for example, is just as unvegan as purchasing leather. So, I think you're right, such a world as we were talking about WOULD be unvegan. So long as capitalism remains, we will possibly get rid of all non-human exploitation, but human exploitation will remain (because, as you say, capitalism is built upon, reliant upon, exploitation; it is an inherent part of it). A world with human exploitation is not a vegan world.

Kimberlily1983
Oct 31st, 2010, 04:58 AM
We're talking city or town or whatever, right? Not a commune? I like the idea of living in a town that is primarily vegan, however it'd be hard to tell anyone that wasn't vegan to get out...and I'm not sure that I'd want to in some cases.
I often daydream of starting a commune, but I could only do that with close friends and I don't deal well with restrictions. I'm a personal and independent person and I sometimes don't want to be social or to have to follow any kinda social codes.
I think if there were a town/village that was primarily vegan maybe omnis wouldn't really want to live there anyway...As long as it didn't turn into some angry militant town that ends up waging war on the surrounding omni-infested (lol) towns and becomes a target for angry omnis who hate vegans (there are a lot of those around here).
Also, the way some responded to this thread makes it sound like a commune...like you'd be required to do business strictly in the "village". While buying completely local is admirable, I can't do it. In fact, I'm nomadic...if I have to live in one place for too long then I'll find excuses to leave frequently...("oooh, they only carry durian in that one city that is 4 hours away from here and I really want some..."

I also daydream about living in a commune, or just at least having more vegan friends. Maybe someday I'll try to start something up - if I do I will let you guys know. :)

I'm also a very private person, cruelkitti; I need loads of time to myself, and have my own little routines. I don't generally deal well with sharing spaces too much, though I think I might adapt to it. So, yeah, a set up that took those needs into account would work for me. A mix of private and communal rooms...

As for militancy, I'm finding myself becoming more and more militant. I think this is a good thing: in general people don't seem to care enough about the causes they claim to care about. Certainly people need to figure out how to be effectively militant, though.

I like the idea of living with, or close to, a group of vegans/animal rights activists, and spending lots of time together, some of which would be doing activism together (protests, handing out leaflets, etc.) and some just having fun and supporting one another (because it's a cold world...), as well as plenty of time for reading and engaging in other quiet, non-group activities, etc.

Clueless Git
Nov 1st, 2010, 09:58 AM
I met an Indian lady at the airport recently ...

We got chatting and she told me that she had grown up completely oblivious to the fact that there was any such thing as a vegetarian.

Reason being that she had never encountered a non-vegetarian, or even heard that there was such a thing, in her entire life untill she moved away from where she had been born and raised.

Kimberlily1983
Nov 7th, 2010, 09:18 PM
I met an Indian lady at the airport recently ...

We got chatting and she told me that she had grown up completely oblivious to the fact that there was any such thing as a vegetarian.

Reason being that she had never encountered a non-vegetarian, or even heard that there was such a thing, in her entire life untill she moved away from where she had been born and raised.

Oh, wow. :D Yes, hopefully one day the word vegan will become essentially pointless in the same way, because everybody will be vegan and there will be no such thing as a non-vegan.

Sgable84
Dec 11th, 2010, 10:30 PM
In heaven?

:D

leedsveg
Dec 11th, 2010, 11:27 PM
In heaven?

If you needed to be a religious vegan to get in, I suspect that heaven (if it existed), would have a remarkably small population. :eek:

lv

Kimberlily1983
Dec 16th, 2010, 05:10 PM
If you needed to be a religious vegan to get in, I suspect that heaven (if it existed), would have a remarkably small population. :eek:

lv

I'll take the first circle of Hell; anyone else up for that? :evil:

foulmouth
Jan 31st, 2011, 10:28 PM
If not, would anyone be interested in starting one? Just a thought.
I would definitely check it out but I don't think I would be able to handle living there for any extended period of time.

fiamma
Feb 1st, 2011, 11:16 AM
Can you imagine? All the harrumphing people will be doing in this village. One says it's good enough, the other says it's not good at all. Veganer-Than-Thou bits going all around, unwashed fellows meandering about town square, companion animals shunned because some call it saving and others call it enslaving. It'd be complete madness.

Then when the town is overrun with fleas, cockroaches and termites there will be a great civil war between those who choose to eradicate via lethal means and those who choose to live in peaceful coexistence with the bugs.

:lol: Brilliant!!!

leedsveg
Feb 1st, 2011, 11:49 AM
I would definitely check it out but I don't think I would be able to handle living there for any extended period of time.

I agree with you fm. But what happens when all the world has gone vegan, which is what I thought we were all aiming for? :dizzy:

leedsveg

Clueless Git
Feb 2nd, 2011, 10:24 AM
I would definitely check it out but I don't think I would be able to handle living there for any extended period of time.
I'm as curious as LV ...

Why?

Now I'm off to ponder if some members of an, as yet, undiscovered tribe of cannibal pygmies sit around pondering if there are 'villages' anywhere else in the world where people are something you simply don't eat.

Errr ... and to ponder as to whether, or not, if such pondering pygmies would definitely like to 'check out' such villages but don't think they could handle living there for any extended period of time.

tsunami
Apr 9th, 2011, 07:52 PM
I think that it's a wonderful idea, and have been thinking about for a while now also. I would love to live in a town that is modern, but still has a sort of an older world village/town feel to it where it's relaxing, yet lively, and people all get along. Just make it clear that the town is to be as vegan as possible, with no animal (mammal, bird, insect, fish, etc.) ingredients/items, so people understand right away and so there will be as little random squabbles as possible stated above. Where people with stronger understanding and compassion for each other gather with a common goal. As well as patience and kindness to teach if someone doesn't understand something, so it is a welcoming place. Of course, no place would be ideal for everyone, but there would be many who would enjoy such a place.

People can still adopt animals, especially those that can easily be vegan, to help free up shelters in other areas. The animals exist anyway, might as well help them out while they need more homes.

There can be wonderful private and/or shared gardens and markets where everything is organic and local, and you don't have to wonder what something was grown or treated with.

Wonderful small stores, bakeries, etc., in the center of the town, and any other specialty stores with vegan items.

And so on. I've been dreaming of such a place for a while, as you can imagine. I was also thinking of starting something like this some day with close friends, or other vegans I know well and we get along. It would be nice.

Torath
Dec 2nd, 2011, 09:01 PM
Since the word vegan doesn't include meaning 'sympathetic to other lifeforms', not all 'vegans' feel the need to live somewhere without heart crushing forces. Those unrealized have mental and emotional protection against the abominations that dominate modern civilization. However, for some people, like me, modern society is not tolerable. The overwhelming bombardment of evil and apathy drives me to seclusion; hiding from the horrors of mankind. Some of us need an all vegan society in order to feel comfortable and have a chance of happiness. To this end, my home is open only for 'sympathetic vegans' and predators (human and nonhuman alike) are banned. Actually, alll vegan societies are not uncommon in the natural world. Many herbivores that live in groups have a basic understanding that predators are not to be tolerated. The big problem for me and my kind is we are individual herbivores living in a predator society; we don't belong. We belong with each other together and away from predator culture.

rianaelf
Dec 3rd, 2011, 02:24 PM
I think just make your own home your sanctuary, no dead animals allowed inside.

If we all went and lived somewhere together who would there be around to encourage others to adopt a cruelty free lifestyle?

Having spent last weekend in Brighton and gone from vegan cafe to veggie pub it was wonderful and I felt so relaxed and at home.

All we can really do is make our own environment as vegan friendly as possible and get together with local vegans for meet ups and support and to sample each others delicious food.

Get a nice big scarf and spray it with vegan perfume or aftershave to put over your nose when passing smelly restaurants or barbecues!! x

Wraithling
Jun 24th, 2012, 07:23 PM
I think there are towns in Northern Sweden where vegans/vegetarians are at least a substantial minority. I also heard that drug-free living is also quite prevalent.

Also, anybody know anything about Christiania in Copenhagen?

I mean, I know that's not really what we're talking about, but it's a start, eh?

On the other hand, I think it's quite a good point that the construction of a vegan Zion could leave the rest of society without examples of compassionate living. I've often felt that one of the most effective ways of reducing/abolishing cruelty in mainstream society is for us to show others how we can be happy and healthy without consuming animals or their various reproductive secretions.

Carme
Jun 27th, 2012, 04:52 PM
I think it sounds like a fantastic idea!!!!!

cherryblossom
Jul 8th, 2012, 05:34 AM
Rishikesh, India is an entirely vegetarian (not vegan) city. We spent some time there and loved it!

My sister-in-law and her family live in Alachua, Florida. The area is very much populated by Hare Krishnas (who are vegetarian) and their children attend public school where all the meals served are vegetarian!

I imagine areas around Seventh Day Adventist populations would also be similiar. I think large vegetarian pockets are religion based really... I don't know if we are quite at the point where large vegan communities exist.