Forcing vegan views on others

[Kimberlily1983]

Oh, wow, that Coke ad is insane! Hard to believe... No doubt we'll look back someday on the sort of things that are very commonplace today, though, and think, how could this be?

There's an ad that bothers me, for ritalin I believe. I've looked for a copy of it online, but can't find it. I was going to post it here. But anyway, it's got this cute redheaded boy, maybe 8 years old or so, bit older? And it's basically saying something to the effect of: "Does your child have problems sitting still, doing his homework, etc.? Ritalin may be the answer." I know this is a controversial one, but my opinion on the matter is that, even if ADHD is a legitimate problem - not convinced on this one - I don't think what the pharmaceutical industry thinks is a solution is the answer. I think the answer is more likely to lie in feeding children healthy diets, getting rid of pollution, giving them physical activity as an outlet for pent-up energy, etc. Better education system, better teachers.

[Kimberlily1983]

Oops, forgot to actually reply to the main topic of this thread.

Some of you have possibly seen my other comments on this subject, and know where I stand: I'm all for openly admitting and discussing with meat-eaters that we (some of us / I) don't think veganism is a matter of "personal choice", but rather is a moral imperative, a duty that we all have. To ignore that duty is to do wrong.

That said, you're talking about forcing people to eat only vegan in your home? Even if I did believe this was all just a matter of personal choice, I of course side with the others here: it's YOUR home, and you're allowed to make the rules. If people don't like it they don't have to visit. Hopefully, though, they will, and then they'll get to see how delicious vegan food is. :)

[Adena]

That's not harsh, that's completely and utterly sensible in my opinion!. I like that you aren't making an issue of it, just serve vegan food without telling them, because it's just normal food!.

aww thanks cobweb - very well put! I hate how people think vegans eat vegan food, and omnis eat omni food. the majority of the lot are crossovers anyway!

[cobweb]

that's ok, VeganBride, I hope it all goes brilliantly well on the day x

[Dumile]

There's an ad that bothers me, for ritalin I believe. I've looked for a copy of it online, but can't find it. I was going to post it here. But anyway, it's got this cute redheaded boy, maybe 8 years old or so, bit older? And it's basically saying something to the effect of: "Does your child have problems sitting still, doing his homework, etc.? Ritalin may be the answer." I know this is a controversial one, but my opinion on the matter is that, even if ADHD is a legitimate problem - not convinced on this one - I don't think what the pharmaceutical industry thinks is a solution is the answer. I think the answer is more likely to lie in feeding children healthy diets, getting rid of pollution, giving them physical activity as an outlet for pent-up energy, etc. Better education system, better teachers.

My brother has ADHD, and I wish he kept taking his pills. He stopped on his own, and his life is so crazy now. He started breaking windows, running around the streets at night, and just acting all in all, ridiculous. When he was taking his pills, he was very calm, well mannered and thinks before he does things. I think if he never stopped he wouldn't have started acting so weird all the time, but he hated taking them. He said they made him feel like a zombie. That can't be good either. I know not everyone with adhd will end up doing bad things like him, but I have noticed the effects they have in a positive way. It's a lose, lose, situation.

[Kimberlily1983]

My brother has ADHD, and I wish he kept taking his pills. He stopped on his own, and his life is so crazy now. He started breaking windows, running around the streets at night, and just acting all in all, ridiculous. When he was taking his pills, he was very calm, well mannered and thinks before he does things. I think if he never stopped he wouldn't have started acting so weird all the time, but he hated taking them. He said they made him feel like a zombie. That can't be good either. I know not everyone with adhd will end up doing bad things like him, but I have noticed the effects they have in a positive way. It's a lose, lose, situation.

Well, I guess what I would wonder about is other factors such as what his home and school life are like, what his friends are like, what his diet is like, etc. If it can't be attributed to other things, maybe it is ADHD or some other real condition that needs to be treated with medication. I don't know... :confused:

I guess what I primarily oppose is the mentality that all of these problems must be fixed with drugs, and that all of these problems are the individual's problem, as opposed to something wrong with the society, with expecting certain standards of conformity, etc. Of course, that doesn't mean that sometimes it's not the individual's problem: certainly in some cases it is. So the problem at least seems to be overdiagnosis, but maybe it's more than that. Again, I don't know... :confused:

I only know in my own life I've been on drugs for anxiety and depression in the past, and I don't believe they helped me (and maybe further on down the years we'll find out they upped my risk of some kind of cancer, or whatever). I also know that in capitalist societies, the profit motive can be very corrupting: with regards to drug companies, there are definitive incentives to get things on the market before fully establishing safety or efficacy.

[Dumile]

Well i can tell you that adhd is in a fact a real problem, and a medical problem. Ritalin really does help. It may be individual cases where there could be other things that help too. Sports and music usually help, but only while the person is doing that at that time. After they stop, then what? So I think Ritalin helps, but can cause other problems too. Like I said, he hated taking them because they slowed him down so much, and he felt zombie like. So that can't be positive mentally either. Either way, it's not as easy as just choosing a better diet.

Anxiety and depression can be helped with a diet change, new friends, home life improvement, ect. ADHD, I'd have to say, needs more than that.

[Kimberlily1983]

Well i can tell you that adhd is in a fact a real problem, and a medical problem. Ritalin really does help. It may be individual cases where there could be other things that help too. Sports and music usually help, but only while the person is doing that at that time. After they stop, then what? So I think Ritalin helps, but can cause other problems too. Like I said, he hated taking them because they slowed him down so much, and he felt zombie like. So that can't be positive mentally either. Either way, it's not as easy as just choosing a better diet.

Anxiety and depression can be helped with a diet change, new friends, home life improvement, ect. ADHD, I'd have to say, needs more than that.

You might be right. It's difficult, as sometimes people who are diagnosed, and who believe that diagnosis themselves for a time, then come out and say they reject the labeling of their difference as a medical problem. :confused:

Actually, I feel that way about my depression to an extent. I don't generally go into this, but I don't personally believe that my depression was at all a medical condition (which, like ADHD, is not to say that it isn't for some people). I may have been predisposed biologically, genetically, but I honestly believe that my depression has been the result largely of unmet needs and an unjust world. Initially it was being bullied, the second time it was losing my faith in God and coming to terms with myself as bisexual (and thinking God hated me, while I still believed in him). Through the years it's been anxiety problems and the resulting difficulties in my life, and it's been living in a world full of so much cruelty. And feeling powerless in the face of it. I think throughout time that it possibly took on a more neurological/chemical side (because years of being depressed of course changes your physiology), but I don't think it started off that way.

All I know for sure is that it's something (ADHD) that is diagnosed in people who don't seem to have anything wrong with them. Anyone who takes the time to look into their situation finds that, actually, it's the home, school, etc. life that's doing it. And these people are being medicated in order to help them conform and adjust to a broken system. But you're right, we definitely shouldn't just assume based on this information that ADHD is not a real medical problem for some people.

[Clueless Git]

.. but I honestly believe that my depression has been the result largely of unmet needs and an unjust world.
'Lo kimberlily :)

I once chatted with a lady who's husband had been a professional counsellor and had jacked the job in: I asked "Why?".

She told me that he had tired of signing off case after case after case with the words "The clients need is for constant posivitive affirmation"

I asked "and WTF does that mean in English, puuuurleeze????"

She said "it means, quite simply, that the clients only problem is that he, or she, does not feel loved".

[harpy]

She told me that he had tired of signing off case after case after case with the words "The clients need is for constant posivitive affirmation"

Sounds as if he wasn't really the man for the job, if he thought all his clients had the same problem!

[Clueless Git]

Sounds as if he wasn't really the man for the job, if he thought all his clients had the same problem!
I was told that most counselling cases get written off that way Harpy.

Obviously I can't say that from a position of personal experience but it does tally with what I observe generaly in life.

[harpy]

I saw a counsellor and found him quite helpful - the problem wasn't anything to do with feeling unloved or needing affirmation, but fortunately the counsellor listened to what the actual problem was and helped with it.

I did see another one once that seemed inclined to pigeonhole all problems of whatever nature as being down to a loveless childhood (which I didn't actually have one of), so there may be something in what you say, that some counsellors tend to write off all cases as being the same ;)

[SlackAlice]

I had a bizzare encounter with a councellor while I was a mature (as opposed to old:p) university student. I booked to see the resident councellor as I was having serious marital problems.

I started to discuss my issues with my husband and he nodded but seemed somewhat distracted!

He stopped me mid sentence and pronounced that all my problems arose from my feeling that my parents didnt love me. I fell silent to contemplate his words and think how to answer but by the time I had got my tongue in gear he had already started a rant about his own parents . He gave me his whole life story , alternating between shouting and being almost reduced to tears by his memories . Being me (bit of a soft touch :)) I didnt distract him or get him back on track but tried to empathise. It was all acutely embarrassing and akward but thankfully broken by the fire alarm being sounded. So in a further bizzare twist we trailed out to the car park together .

My friend who joined us in the car park as we lined up said 'oh I didnt know you were having councelling!' I am not sure wether I was receiving or giving!:rolleyes:

[Kimberlily1983]

Wow, what a strange experience, SlackAlice!

Just to clarify, I was in no way unloved, Cupid. I did have issues with my parents, but just the normal teenage stuff. The trouble for me was being bullied at school, and having teachers who saw it and did nothing, or in some cases even exacerbated it a bit... Not right.

So, yeah, as a teen it was the injustices I was facing personally that played a big part, and as I got older, it was more things that affected groups I was a part of (the queer community, for instance) and even more so, animal exploitation. The destruction of the Earth and the general evil of corporations played a role, too.

I think the point of your story (Cupid) was that you think these might not be the only factors in my having become depressed, that perhaps there's a medical side to it I wasn't aware of? I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I don't believe it to be the case. Some of the doctors I've seen, on the other hand, assert with 100% certainty that it was medical from the beginning, and that I absolutely needed to be on medication, etc. Others have acknowledged that there's no basis for this kind of blanket statement and that while drugs can be beneficial, there are other things that can be done.

[cobweb]

Different strokes for different folks or whatever the saying is.........some people find meds really helpful (a lifesaver) others find counselling good, for some it's lifestyle changes, we have to keep an open mind really and keep looking til we find our own answers. I'm personally none too amused to know that I seem to 'need' meds, but trial and error over MANY years have seemingly proved this to be correct. It's either take the meds or jump off the nearest tall building I'm afraid, I don't handle being part of the human race particularly well :rolleyes:.

[Kimberlily1983]

I certainly wouldn't want to assume that meds never help anyone except through the placebo effect, but I do believe that the majority of people who claim they need meds and that their meds help are actually primarily or entirely benefiting from the placebo effect. Again,

[Kimberlily1983]

... whoops, sent that by accident. Okay, to continue my post: Again, I would not want to claim that everyone who thinks they're being helped is just gullible, or anything like that. Many of these meds have real effects on mood; they generally flatten affect, and that can be a good thing if your lows are getting you very down, and are more pronounced than your highs (or if you don't have any highs). But I do think it's more often a mix of placebo effect and other lifestyle changes, rather than the actual effects of the drug, that's helping people.

[Clueless Git]

Just to clarify, I was in no way unloved, Cupid. I did have issues with my parents, but just the normal teenage stuff. The trouble for me was being bullied at school, and having teachers who saw it and did nothing, or in some cases even exacerbated it a bit... Not right.

So, yeah, as a teen it was the injustices I was facing personally that played a big part, and as I got older, it was more things that affected groups I was a part of (the queer community, for instance) and even more so, animal exploitation. The destruction of the Earth and the general evil of corporations played a role, too.

I think the point of your story (Cupid) was that you think these might not be the only factors in my having become depressed, that perhaps there's a medical side to it I wasn't aware of? I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I don't believe it to be the case. Some of the doctors I've seen, on the other hand, assert with 100% certainty that it was medical from the beginning, and that I absolutely needed to be on medication, etc. Others have acknowledged that there's no basis for this kind of blanket statement and that while drugs can be beneficial, there are other things that can be done.
I was musing actualy Kimberlily.. back to a time when I didn't love myself at all.

Happily that time has passed and my love for myself (as SlackAlice will ruefully confirm?) is the now the greatest love of all :)

[cobweb]

Many of these meds have real effects on mood; they generally flatten affect


Yep, that's exactly what my meds do for me, otherwise I'm on a continuum of rapidly cycling and very erratic moods which is utterly exhausting.

[The Queen]

I never preach to others as it enhances the negative view of us that we are all preachy and annoying

But if someone starts on me "they were made for us to eat, they're already dead anyway" blah blah blah... I say, I wouldn't preach to you, now YOU don't preach to me, and I might then go into details about why they're wrong, because if an ignorant person chose to challenge me, it's their fault for picking on a more knowledgeable person

[NOLA Vegan]

I do things like the second coke ad at work all the time. We have to think of ways to basically tick people into buying things, by making them want it without them knowing. Slogans work, but colors work best with them. It's actually kind of fun, but sad in a way.

I wouldn't force my views on anyone.

Is 'tricking people into buying things' kind of like forcing views on people? In our daily lives we all make compromises, and many of them in the workplace. In this case I feel it is perhaps a case of forcing a corporations views onto other people, only more sneakily so. It is unfortunate that many of us must make our livings in ways that contradict 'our views'. I am saying this without judging the person who posted this, as I have done things for money that I have not been comfortable with.

Still, there is an accountability that we all have to own up to for contributing to the ongoing troubles in the world. We are forced or choose to participate in chains of events that include links to oppression. We find ways to justify our involvement. Just as a meat eater may justify eating an animal because he did not actually participate in the raising or slaughtering, and somehow comes to the belief that he is not accountable for those acts.

We can not force views onto others without alienating them. But just as advertising sways people towards consuming products, our actions are what contribute to people changing their habits. If we practice truth in our speech and compassion in our actions we are the most likely to influence others. By keeping our homes and weddings sacred and free of animal exploitation we send a strong message. If we go to others homes and weddings and try to impose our views we have already done more damage than good.

"Be the change that you want to see", is always the best place to start.

[FaerieSuzy]

Well they don't see any problem with eating meat in front of me, in fact I should 'just get over it' so whenever I'm cooking, they have to 'get over it' and eat their greens !

[Clueless Git]

Well they don't see any problem with eating meat in front of me, in fact I should 'just get over it' so whenever I'm cooking, they have to 'get over it' and eat their greens !
'Lo Suzy :)

Just in case it make anyone smile ..

My parents used to do the 'just get over it thing ..' with me sometimes.

Knowing that they find nudity 'uncomfortable' I politely enquired that if I were to strip off and eat my meal naked how would they respond if I simply said "now you get over that!"?

[BlackBow]

With 8-10 ads being advertised for meat/cheese, meat eaters dehumanizing vegans, and meat eaters killing and
torture other for their own beliefs we are not the ones forcing our views on others. The most we do is educate
meat eaters about their life style with facts.

I HATE being in a house that has meat/dairy/cheese in it. I over think things and sometimes when I open it
I think of the suffering innocent beings went through just because of my parents. Also, I have to cook
my food that they cook with so that's no fun. Can't wait till I'm grown and can open the fridge full of cruelty free
food from whole foods after I come home from working as an animal nutritionist at an animal sanctuary :)
(That's what I want to be when I grow up :D)

[Clueless Git]

I HATE being in a house that has meat/dairy/cheese in it ..

Can't wait till I'm grown and can open the fridge full of cruelty free food ..
Aye, I know what you mean there Blackbow.

My children are 'from birth' vegetarians and I managed to get the house 95% vegan before they both, pretty much at the same time, experimented with leaving home.

Obviously the house immediately went 100% vegan then.

My daughter returned and tried to re-introduce eggs into the fridge and latterly my son, who has just taken up body building, tried re-introducing cows milk.

All I'm going to say is this; The strength of my reaction took me by surprise, let alone how it took them.

Guess I'd not actualy realised how 'nice' it is to have nothing in the fridge and cupboards that reminds me of the cruelty that goes on untill that 'sanctity' came under threat again.