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Clueless Git
Nov 22nd, 2010, 02:45 AM
M'very good self and m'much beloved, the comfortably upholstered 'SlackAlice' (sometimes of this forum), were having a conversation earlier today.

Alice ('Slack' to her freinds) is currently biting the bullet on banning meat from her house entirely and this old chest nut came up:

"Is it wrong to force veganism on other people?"

I see it kinda like this: The meat eater clearly sees no problem in forcing death upon others he views as lunch. The meat eater see's a huge problem with someone forcing the somewhat less extreme view that "this is lunch and that isn't" upon himself.

Is a meat eater squealing (like the farmers prettiest pig?) about "it's wrong to force ones own view upon others" a blatant hypocracy of absolutely mind numbing proportions or am I missing something?

Are we as vegans actualy showing respect to the meat eaters own morality if we, as they believe it is entirely and unchallengably right to do, force our views upon others (them in this case) also?

Korn
Nov 22nd, 2010, 08:28 AM
Are we as vegans actualy showing respect to the meat eaters own morality if we, as they believe it is entirely and unchallengably right to do, force our views upon others (them in this case) also? In some cases, sharing your viewpoints on people only gives them bad conscience: they start to feel guilty and instead of changing their behavior, they start to 'dislike' whoever reminds them about their bad conscience.

As for vegans banning meat from their homes, here's how I see it: if someone would try to convince a vegan to serve or have people eat meat in their own homes, they'd come pretty close to 'forcing' their non-vegan views on others. The fact that I don't want anyone to kill an animal or eat a dead animal in my home isn't about forcing my views onto other humans, it's about not allowing non-vegan humans to force their own ethics (or lack thereof) onto innocent animals in my home.

cobweb
Nov 22nd, 2010, 06:10 PM
^ agreed, Korn. I wouldn't think twice about it, my homes have been meat-free since I first left home in my teens. The only exception to that is non-human animals who eat meat - contrary to my wishes and without their comprehension of why and how it offends me.

leedsveg
Nov 22nd, 2010, 06:41 PM
Hi CS

If veganism was just about a diet, then the lovely Slack could have been on dodgy ground. But as we know, veganism is a moral stance which includes amongst other things, trying to eat as cruelty free a diet as possible. Just as Slack could expect people not to bring lying and thieving into her house, because that would constitute immoral behaviour, so she can ask people not to bring meat, fish etc into her house because she thinks that (humans) using animals, fish etc for food is also immoral. Slack should be able to say what behaviour she will tolerate in her own house and if other people disagree with her interpretation of what is moral/immoral, they should either abide by her rules or go elsewhere.:p

lv

veganina
Nov 22nd, 2010, 08:05 PM
This is how i look at it: When my kids are trying to do something that i know will harm them, of course i will stop them. And when they are up to harming others or destroying common property, of course i will stop them. Nobody will argue this. Do i force my opinion on them? Yes. Is it wrong? No.
So, is a meat eaters squealing... about "it's wrong to force ones own view upon others" a blatant hypocracy of absolutely mind numbing proportions? Yes, yes and yes.

Andy_T
Nov 22nd, 2010, 09:43 PM
Hmmm. Is there no saying in English like 'He who owns the house, makes the rules?'

To me, that would be common sense that - when you are invited to a vegans house - you will not get any carcasses there nor will you be looked upon friendly if you bring them yourselves.
Would they go to a Muslims home and expece spareribs to be served?

Best regards,
Andy

hullabaloo
Nov 22nd, 2010, 11:00 PM
I don't force vegan views on anyone. The way I see it is that I would hate for meat eaters to do the same to me. It's obvious we all see the world differently (rightly or wrongly) and I feel that forcing my view on someone that doesn't think the same way as me is counter productive. It only serves to either alienate myself or push them away from my view point because no one like to be told how to live their life! Humans are funny creatures and much prefer to come to their own conclusions and make their own decisions. So I live by example in the hope that I quietly influence those around me. Of course if I am asked directly I am more than happy to talk about my veganism.

Adena
Nov 25th, 2010, 11:15 PM
This is an argument I've had over my wedding day - which will be an all vegan day (tyvm) - for a guest list of 68 omnis, and me and my vegan fiance...
I don't think it's "forcing veganism" on them, as a)they will be vegan for one meal, not the rest of their lives... and b) which i find more important - vegan's don't eat anything that omni's do not eat. I'm not giving them somethign they have morals against or don't eat. But to be giving them meat would go strongly against what I feel is right...
As for your own home, it's your home!! If it's wrong for a vegan to live in a vegan household then blow me down!

Back-Space
Nov 25th, 2010, 11:21 PM
This is an argument I've had over my wedding day - which will be an all vegan day (tyvm) - for a guest list of 68 omnis, and me and my vegan fiance...
I don't think it's "forcing veganism" on them, as a)they will be vegan for one meal, not the rest of their lives... and b) which i find more important - vegan's don't eat anything that omni's do not eat. I'm not giving them somethign they have morals against or don't eat. But to be giving them meat would go strongly against what I feel is right...
As for your own home, it's your home!! If it's wrong for a vegan to live in a vegan household then blow me down!

Wow, you've got that many people eating vegan at your wedding? They must have a lot of respect for you :) I have difficulties trying to convince people to have a vegan meal, even if I'm offering to cook it for them....

pusskins
Nov 26th, 2010, 01:10 PM
We had about that many people at our civil partnership in Sept. And they loved the food, and said it was totally not what they had expected! It felt good :D (Yes, it was a totally vegan day!)

harpy
Nov 26th, 2010, 02:08 PM
No way is giving people at a party etc a vegan meal "forcing veganism" on them! They don't have to come if they don't want to and it would be quite rude to complain IMO.

Back-Space, have you been vegan long? Perhaps your friends haven't got used to the idea yet?

Back-Space
Nov 26th, 2010, 05:12 PM
We had about that many people at our civil partnership in Sept. And they loved the food, and said it was totally not what they had expected! It felt good :D (Yes, it was a totally vegan day!)

Congratulations, on the partnership and the vegan meals :) I think I've contributed to one of my friends families becoming almost vegetarian. That's the best I've got :p They still eat dairy products and have meat on occasion, but whenever I go over, they point out what they're eating is vegetarian :D Still no luck with my family, but I've got plenty of time :)



No way is giving people at a party etc a vegan meal "forcing veganism" on them! They don't have to come if they don't want to and it would be quite rude to complain IMO.

Back-Space, have you been vegan long? Perhaps your friends haven't got used to the idea yet?

About 7 months or so... My friends are alright with it. They're upset that we never eat at restaurants anymore, but.... I think my parents are the biggest problem. They seem to take it as an insult :(

Clueless Git
Nov 26th, 2010, 07:04 PM
Hmmm. Is there no saying in English like 'He who owns the house, makes the rules?'

Two, that I can think of, Andy ..

1. An Englishmans home is his castle .. (although planning permission to add turrets, drawbridges and moats to most homes in the UK usualy get refused)

2. He who pays the piper calls the tune ..

Adena
Nov 26th, 2010, 09:45 PM
Congratulations Pusskins :D I'm really happy it went down so well for you both, a lot of people don't know about our wedding being all vegan at the mo (well, that is - we haven't told them ourselves, I just gather everyone would expect as much, with both me and my VeganGroom being vegan, and it being "our big day"..) - at the same time, it's a free three course meal with free wine/champagne and free cake after, so those who want to complain can be shown the door really! Is that too harsh :S I can never tell if it's me being selfish for not letting people ruin the day, or others being selfish for ruining it. maybe both?

Korn
Nov 26th, 2010, 10:25 PM
While we're talking about forcing views on others...:
http://naturalnews.com/Images/Cola-Earlier.jpg

cobweb
Nov 26th, 2010, 10:26 PM
Congratulations Pusskins :D I'm really happy it went down so well for you both, a lot of people don't know about our wedding being all vegan at the mo (well, that is - we haven't told them ourselves, I just gather everyone would expect as much, with both me and my VeganGroom being vegan, and it being "our big day"..) - at the same time, it's a free three course meal with free wine/champagne and free cake after, so those who want to complain can be shown the door really! Is that too harsh :S I can never tell if it's me being selfish for not letting people ruin the day, or others being selfish for ruining it. maybe both?


That's not harsh, that's completely and utterly sensible in my opinion!. I like that you aren't making an issue of it, just serve vegan food without telling them, because it's just normal food!.

cobweb
Nov 26th, 2010, 10:27 PM
Oh my God, Korn, that's amazing! :amazed_ani:.

Korn
Nov 26th, 2010, 10:35 PM
Yes. But ads for highly addictive, sugary foods and drinks today aren't really much better. They're not as 'verbal' as the one above, but they spend millions on trying to make kids/young people feel that eating/drinking this or that is something people their age just do. There isn't a text saying 'for a lifetime of guaranteed happiness', but there's eg. stuff like this:

http://maverix.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83454dfb769e20120a6a11f0c970c-250wi And the ads/pressure towards drinking Cole or eating meat is based on the same subtle, between-the-lines hints about needing certain products unless one wants to feel like an outsider etc.

cobweb
Nov 26th, 2010, 10:43 PM
^ yes you're totally correct. My son, who actually doesn't drink Colas atall, has a free Pepsi desktop background which is called something like 'Happy Land', and loves that Christmas Coke advert we get on the telly every year. That's what is all boils down to isn't, whether to be 'normal' and part of the whole sick system, or step off the conveyor belt and think for yourself. The big companies are so damn good at what they do.

Back-Space
Nov 27th, 2010, 12:00 AM
Does anyone else feel like a coke? :p

Lars
Nov 27th, 2010, 02:57 AM
whoa that old ad for coke + babies is soooo bad!!!

but with that being said i'm out to get a frozen coke, it's too hot

Back-Space
Nov 27th, 2010, 03:44 AM
That ad with the baby is edited right? Seems a little fake to me, but then I've seen some pretty weird ads from back then...

Korn
Nov 27th, 2010, 07:11 AM
That ad with the baby is edited right? Seems a little fake to me, but then I've seen some pretty weird ads from back then...
http://www.naturalnews.com/030528_soda_infants.html

More:
http://www.naturalnews.com/index-Badvertising.html

Back-Space
Nov 27th, 2010, 05:25 PM
Omg.... Laboratory tests prove that your baby will have a better chance of fitting in. People bought that crap? That's insane

Dumile
Nov 29th, 2010, 05:23 AM
I do things like the second coke ad at work all the time. We have to think of ways to basically tick people into buying things, by making them want it without them knowing. Slogans work, but colors work best with them. It's actually kind of fun, but sad in a way.

I wouldn't force my views on anyone. If people wonder why I'm vegan I tell them. I go into detail if they don't seem to understand. With eating at my house, I have my food and the rest of the family has theirs. I've thought about the fact that I am the one that pays for their meat, I really could just refuse to buy it. I'd be pissed if someone refused to buy me vegan foods. I've made the decision I'm only going to allow my kids meat a couple of times a week. Fought with my wife about it and that was the outcome, which is better than everyday like she does. Some progress is better than none I guess.

I dont think forcing works anyway. My brother in law wondered what it was all about. I showed him the meet your meat video, plus some other vids on turkeys. He could barely watch as it grossed him out, but after it was over he got right up and grabbed a piece of my wifes leftover turkey. It barely affected him long enough for the video to finish.