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katieli
Nov 1st, 2010, 01:10 PM
Case study of 50 year old vegan male. B12 Test Case Study (http://www.vitaminb12info.com/vitamin-b12-case-study.html).

Korn
Nov 1st, 2010, 04:53 PM
Case study of 50 year old vegan male. B12 Test Case Study (http://www.vitaminb12info.com/vitamin-b12-case-study.html).

Even if he hasn't been eating B12 supplements for 3-5 years, he has B12 levels within what's considered normal in a number of countries, so he doesn't qualify for a B12 deficiency case quite yet. :-)

I made some more comments about this case over here:

B12, homocysteine, & heart disease (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?108-B12-homocysteine-amp-heart-disease/page2)

katieli
Nov 2nd, 2010, 02:44 PM
Even if he hasn't been eating B12 supplements for 3-5 years, he has B12 levels within what's considered normal in a number of countries, so he doesn't qualify for a B12 deficiency case quite yet. :-)

I made some more comments about this case over here:

B12, homocysteine, & heart disease (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?108-B12-homocysteine-amp-heart-disease/page2)

I'll read the other thread a bit later. I'm a believer in optimal health, not normal health, so personally I'd rather my vitamin/mineral levels be optimal. If normal in UK is around 200-1000, I would consider anywhere under 400-500 too low. I know doctors wouldn't agree with me, but the lower limit of the normal level has been set for the avoidance of disease in most people, not for the avoidance of disease in all people. In my opinion, the lower levels as certainly not consitent with optimal health. But most people are happy with normal health, so that's ok. It's a very personal choice.

Korn
Nov 4th, 2010, 12:31 PM
Hi,
I'm all for I'm optimal health instead of just "normal health", but IMHO one part of the vegan movement have had an ongoing problem with mixing up 'optimum health' with 'normal health' and even 'so bad health that you can could die of it' for too long now. This happen a lot among a relatively small, but active group of vegans.

Can one die of heart attack fir homocysteine reasons when the homocysteine levels are within normal range?

If the answer is yes, the normal, accepted range should be changed immediately, in all countries.


Some vegans (and others) try to make people take a lot of B12 for the homocysteine reasons. This has been based on the idea that homocysteine is the cause of heart disease as opposed to be another result of whatever it is that causes heart disease. Here are some short excerpts from major studies about the B12/hCy relationship (quoted in full in another thread):

"Hcy levels in an Ivorian population having a fish-based diet appeared significantly higher compared to subjects having a vegetarian diet. However, folate and vitamin B12 status did not emerge as the major determinants of this difference; a stronger relationship was observed with creatinine levels."

"No association was found between vitamin B(12) intake and mortality risk. CONCLUSIONS: High dietary intakes of folate and vitamin B(6) were associated with reduced risk of mortality from stroke, coronary heart disease, and heart failure among Japanese."

"CONCLUSION: Substantial long-term reductions in blood homocysteine levels with folic acid and vitamin B(12) supplementation did not have beneficial effects on vascular outcomes but were also not associated with adverse effects on cancer incidence"

"Participants with elevated tHcy (>20 micromol/L) concentrations had a 64% increased likelihood of prevalent hearing loss (>25 dB HL) [multivariate-adjusted odds ratio (OR) 1.64; 95% CI, 1.06-2.53]. Low serum folate levels (<11 nmol/L) increased the odds of prevalent mild hearing loss (>25-40 dB HL), multivariate-adjusted [OR 1.37 (CI 1.04-1.81)]. Serum vitamin B-12, however, was not significantly associated with prevalent hearing loss."

"CONCLUSIONS: Surprisingly, there is only very limited evidence that vitamin B12 deficiency predisposes to the risk of mortality and morbidity from either cardiovascular diseases or diabetes in adults. Current data do not support vitamin B12 supplementation to reduce the risk of cardiovascular diseases or diabetes."

"CONCLUSION: Vegetarian parents and their preschool children had a lower vitamin B-12 intake than omnivorous parents and their preschool children but similar plasma vitamin B-12 and homocysteine concentrations. Plasma homocysteine was not associated with serum vitamin B-12 levels in the parent, child, or pooled group."

And here's another group pf quotes I collecected for another post:


• "Treatment with folic acid plus vitamin B12 was associated with increased cancer outcomes and all-cause mortality in patients with ischemic heart disease in Norway"
• "The researchers found that participants assigned to the B-vitamin group had a greater decrease in radionuclide GFR (and subsequently poorer kidney function) compared with the placebo group"
• "Participants randomized to receive B vitamins had a significantly greater number of cardiovascular and cerebrovascular events"
• "All-cause mortality was double in the B-vitamin group, compared to the placebo group"
• "Given the recent large-scale clinical trials showing no treatment benefit, and our trial demonstrating harm, it would be prudent to discourage the use of high-dose B vitamins as a homocysteine-lowering strategy outside the framework of properly conducted clinical research."
• "Together the data show that B-vitamin supplements, whether compared with placebos or standard care, have no effect on the incidence of heart attack, stroke or death associated with heart disease"
• "Prescription of these supplements cannot be justified, unless new evidence from large high quality trials alters our conclusions"

Read more in B12, homocysteine, & heart disease (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?108-B12-homocysteine-amp-heart-disease) if you want more details, and also links to older studies/studies with other conclusions.

There is not a scientific consensus out there supporting the idea that a vegan with the levels you mention 'could die of heart attack'. Such claims creates fear, and gives vegan food a bad reputation. Scary, unfounded claims are posted along with Google ads (read: income) for homocysteine tests. Maybe the definition of 'normal' will be updated, but since such changes will have to be be based on scientific evidence, the studies behind the quotes I just posted will be taken into consideration. These results oppose the idea of 'Better be safe than sorry/take B12 and you are safe' as a B12/homocysteine/heart disease solution - right?


Most people who don't know anything about their B12 levels / don't check themselves should IMO take a little B12, more or less regularly. There are more benefits than risks (if any) involved in adding a little B12 to one's diet, unless they know that they already consume B12 from (fortified) food. One is more safe than sorry this way - in most cases. This is particularly important for vegans. Non-vegans need to deal with low levels of other nutrients. But the claimed B12/homocysteine/heart disease connection is highly disputed - for a food reason. It's somehow being argumented against even before it's established among most people as a 'fact'.

A new study about B12 and homocysteine levels in pregnant women with fetuses with neural tube defects (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20632912) conclude this way: "It seems that vitamin B12 deficiency does not play a causative role in the development of foetal NTD. Monitoring maternal homocystein levels might be important in understanding the aetiologies of foetal NTD." I still think it's recommendable that vegan and non-vegan pregnant women are 100% sure they have healthy levels of B12 and folate before they become pregnant. Most vegans get enough folate from their diet, and many non-vegans have enough B12 from their diet.

Most people may be prejudiced against a plant based diet already, which is why it's important to stress that both vegans and non-vegans have nutrients they need to pay special attention to. Re. your link: Occasional visitors on such sites only 'surf' on internet, they don't 'dive' into this kind of info. They spend some seconds or minutes on many pages within a short time span, and are easily left with a vague memory about a vegan who, according to the writer has an "an extremely high reading", but who according to many experts are in the high normal range. The writer also states "Taking B12 supplements should bring this down", but scientists all over the world - who monitor this topic closely - know that treating a symptom as such may not solve the actual problem. Then there's the talk about that he could have died of a heart attack and even that a test "could possibly have saved this person's life" - almost as if is dead already!


Even a child knows both that 2+1=3 and that 3-2=1. Some of the dietitians out there have missed this simple, but essential part of the B12 dilemma: to determine a person's likely B12 status, one needs to both look at how much B12 he absorbs and on how many B12 reducing factors he and the food/liquids/air he consumes are exposed to. Both 'add' and 'subtract' has to be taken into consideration here. But if you look at some major vegan sites' information pages (about B12/homocysteine/heart disease), you'll find both that they forgot all about the subtraction part - and that that they systematically also are ignoring a lot of publicly available knowledge about B12/CVD/hCy. They write about B12 in a way that leaves thousands of non-vegans (and vegans) with a false impressions that an omnivorous diet is more natural or more healthy than a vegan diet, based on mumbo-jumbo logic and omitted facts. The intensions may be good, but sadly, the end results is that more animals are killed an eaten - for invalid reasons.

katieli
Nov 4th, 2010, 12:55 PM
I see what you are saying, but this was presented in good faith. I have researched this myself and discussed with my own doctor and he agrees. It's often the case that many people (even so-called experts) disagree on these things. I am just doing what is right for me and that is my choice. And my friend is doing what's right for him.

I agree that there is more ill-health among non-vegans and this case study is not to show that a vegan diet is bad. It's just highlighting a specific B12 issue. Obviously not everyone will agree. It is not an attack on vegans, as I am one myself. It is just pointing out what I perceive to be one of the dangers if you overlook certain issues. This is just as true with non-vegans, but as this is a vegan website it seemed the appropriate place to post it.

I apologise if I have caused offence, as that was not my intention. I was just trying to raise an important issue. If something works for me, that's what I'll do, regardless of what scientific studies show. Health is an individual thing and my choices are personal to me.

katieli
Nov 4th, 2010, 01:00 PM
And to answer the question if can people die of heart attacks if homocysteine levels are normal, the answer is yes. They certainly do die of heart attacks with normal levels, although it is difficult to determine how much the levels contribute to the heart attacks. From research I've read, people with homocysteine levels below 5 rarely die of heart attacks. Those in the high normal range have a higher risk of heart attack and death. There is obviously more to heart attacks than just homocysteine levels, but the levels are a good indicator of likely heart attack. Whether they contribute to heart disease or not is another issue. What came first - the heart disease or the homocysteine? This isn't a perfect science. We just have to do the best we can with the limited knowledge we have. I would rather warn others and then find out I'm wrong than not warn others and see them suffer serious harm.

It is the doctor who claimed the reading was high and needed to be brought down. The author is just repeating what the doctor said. The doctor in question has nothing against following a vegan diet.

Korn
Nov 4th, 2010, 01:26 PM
It is just pointing out what I perceive to be one of the dangers if you overlook certain issues.
But don't you find it hard to conclude that the real danger is a 14.9 hCy result caused by his B12 level when you see all the studies I quoted? More studies will come, and we don't know what they will bring, I just find strange (and more) that some vegans ignore all the studies that actually argue against the old fashioned 'scare propaganda' about vegans dying because they have higher or lower levels of certain nutrients than average non-vegans.

If higher B12 levels can increase cancer rate/ have an negative effect on kidney functions (for some people); if people randomized to receive B vitamins had a "significantly greater number of cardiovascular and cerebrovascular events", and the "all-cause mortality was double in the B-vitamin group, compared to the placebo group"... are we sure we are doing the right thing when we present increased B12 intake as some sort of wonder medicine? Again, vegans' levels of B12 - at least unless we talk about vegans who drink fresh water from clean, nearby rivers and wild, organic, fresh plants from unspoiled soil etc *do* need more attention that other nutrient levels, but we shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water when we try to help others let go of their sometimes blind trust in vegan food as some sort of miracle cure. Vegans may be less sick than others, but still get sick.


I apologise if I have caused offense, as that was not my intention. I was just trying to raise an important issue. If something works for me, that's what I'll do, regardless of what scientific studies show.

No no, no need to worry about offense... :-) The topic is important, and trust me - it will come up again!


And to answer the question if can people die of heart attacks if homocysteine levels are normal, the answer is yes. Sure. I just reworded that question to make myself more clear.

[/quote]What came first - the heart disease or the homocysteine? This isn't a perfect science. We just have to do the best we can with the limited knowledge we have. I would rather warn others and then find out I'm wrong than not warn others and see them suffer serious harm.[/QUOTE]

As long as we don't generate...
a) false 'better safe than sorry' promises, or
b) false impressions/'adverts' about vegans who 'may die' for dietary reasons
... all is good.

katieli
Dec 24th, 2010, 01:22 PM
Dairy-free diets (http://www.detoxandcleansingdiets.com/dairy-free-diets.php) needs more dairy-free articles so I thought you guys might like the chance to put your views across. The articles can be anything related to dairy-free and you can also get a link back to your website or blog if you have one.

Vegetarian diet or vegan diet aricles are also needed. Same rules as above. Just post here that you're interested and I'll PM you. Or use contact form on the dairy-free diets link at beginning of this post.

Articles need to be of a good quality.

Thanks.

katieli
Dec 24th, 2010, 01:28 PM
Sublingual vitamin B12 (http://www.sublingualvitaminb12.net/) needs some articles. If you have experience taking this (good or bad) or just have something interesting to say then we'd be interested in hearing from you. If your article s published you will get a link back to your website or blog. Articles need to be good quality. Reply to this and I'll contact you.

Andy_T
Dec 24th, 2010, 03:45 PM
Hello Katieli,

two hints of suggestion:
- remove fish flesh products from your list of 'non dairy foodstuffs' :-(
- and drop the l'oreal advertisements.....

Best regards,
Andy

katieli
Dec 24th, 2010, 04:01 PM
There shouldn't be an l'oreal advert. Where have you seen it? I can't see any when I look. I will certainly get it removed but need to see it to get the link.

Korn
Dec 24th, 2010, 04:15 PM
The most obvious way is to get your B12 through your diet. This isn’t possible for vegans and for vegetarians it’s not reliable
According to a number of sites/studies, that statement is wrong... Even the extremely conservative Vegan Society states that "most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid anaemia and nervous system damage", and we have threads like eg. this one:
How much B12 is there in plant based diet?
(http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?217-How-much-B12-is-there-in-plant-based-diet)
What are your sources? And - do you run all these three sites?

katieli
Dec 24th, 2010, 04:30 PM
According to a number of sites/studies, that statement is wrong... Even the extremely conservative Vegan Society states that "most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid anaemia and nervous system damage", and we have threads like eg. this one:
How much B12 is there in plant based diet?
(http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?217-How-much-B12-is-there-in-plant-based-diet)
What are your sources? And - do you run all these three sites?
I don't have scientific proof but I know very many vegans and vegetarians that have tested low in B12. I am not trying to say anything against veganism, because I truly believe in it, but I would rather vegans knew the dangers of B12 deficiency than pretend that everything is ok. Some vegans may be ok for B12, but very many aren't. That is a fact. They need to know it so they can take steps to sort it out. It's also a fact that many meat-eaters are B12 deficient. That is also pointed out in the article. It seem like you would prefer vegans to just think or hope they are ok. They should get tested and find out for sure. All this nonsense of pretending vegans can't be B12 deficient is harming the health of many vegans. I'm only trying to help but obviously my help isn't appreciated. I apologies for any offence and won't post here again.

Korn
Dec 24th, 2010, 04:44 PM
All this nonsense of pretending vegans can't be B12 deficient is harming the health of many vegans
I haven't seen anyone suggest this ever. On the contrary, many of us have posted repeatedly that vegans are more likely to become B12 deficient than others, and should pay extra attention to B12. Non-vegans need to pay extra attention to other nutrients.

Since these sites seems to be a lot about advertising, and also about promoting the anti-vegan Dr. Mercola, this looks only like spam to me.


It seem like you would prefer vegans to just think or hope they are ok.You obviously haven't read much of what I've written about B12... but at any rate, spam which seems to be about generating income and additionally promotes anti-vegan articles, the importance of animal protein and similar nonsense definitely isn't welcome here.

The three sites have practically the same IP address, and is, according to you, run by a vegan - which promotes one of the most active anti-vegans on internet? This is spamming and trolling at the same time!