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Korn
Apr 30th, 2004, 03:30 PM
http://www.nealhendrickson.com/mcdougall/030200pufishisnothealthfood.htm

Thundercat
Aug 28th, 2004, 12:05 AM
Hi. Im new at this vegan thing...I have never liked red meat, milk, butter, or fish so after watching a few PETA videos I decided to go all the way to vegan city. Its hard though because almost everything is made with eggs or milk. Im having a hard time staying strict. I dont ever add milk or butter or even eat chees but how do you avoid the little things you cant help, like bread....how do you swing that? Its made with milk. I dont think it is wrong to eat animals, I am a Christian and I believe God intends us to reside over nature, however I am against the animal torture conducted in slaughter houses, testing labs, and any where else. I stand for Stop Animal Torture but decided to go vegan to set the example. What do I do about fish... Tuna is just swooped up if I get the dolphin safe tuna is that okay? I need to know soon because Im craving some carb free goods. Allright, thats all I have. Please dont attack me for my views, Im up for some persuasion, This is where I stand based on the knowledge I have (which is limited) ;)

Artichoke47
Aug 28th, 2004, 12:39 AM
I am a Christian as well and I believe that dominion compels us to protect animals instead of torturing and murdering them, including the tuna. God is peaceful. Have you read the book Dominion by Matthew Scully? It's a good read and puts things into perspective. Man has perverted what God meant by "dominion." :)

There are plenty of vegan breads available. Just check around. Do you have a health food store near you?

I also don't understand, because you said that you never really liked fish, but then you are thinking about or craving tuna. Vegans do not eat animals or animal byproducts, and that includes tuna. I hope you refrain from eating such items, but if you don't, that's up to you, of course.

Thundercat
Aug 28th, 2004, 01:39 AM
Eating tuna is more for dieting purposes. :eek: So far I havent come across any articles about tuna and pain or torture but if you find one please let me know, and I wil definitely look into that book!!! THANKS! :cool:

Atlanta Newbie
Aug 28th, 2004, 02:39 AM
Welcome Thundercat. I know what you mean about bread being tricky... I make sure that all the bread I buy for home use is free of milk and egg by-products, but it's difficult to know when you are eating out or are someone's guest. Sometimes the purity vs. practicality thing can be a challenge.

Last night I went to a small vegetarian dinner gathering at a restaurant and they served flatbread as an appetizer. Not knowing what was in it, I avoided it. However, a vegan woman at the table ate it without asking any questions. I guess it's just a judgment call.

My motivation toward veganism is both ethical and spiritual. At this point eating meat is wrong *for me* in and of itself because it involves taking the life of another creature unnecessarily. I don't pass that judgment on others, however.

I have come to believe that moving toward an animal-free diet is part of humankind's spiritual evolution, and I also believe that a couple of hundred years from now that humans will be eating a mostly vegan diet and will view the eating of animals as barbaric.

But I digress. Nice to hear from you. We may not agree on everything, but that's what makes life interesting, no?

Have a good weekend. :)

ConsciousCuisine
Aug 28th, 2004, 03:44 AM
Hello Thundercat! Ditto on what Atlanta and Artichoke have said thus far and here is something I have to add...if you are interested in the "diet thing" and worried aboout carbohydrates, try eating more raw foods. Living and raw foods are cleansing, vibrant and health-building. Also, raw vegetables, with nuts and seeds as sauces and garnish can make lovely, nourishing, filling, enzyme-rich and slimming meals all on their own. Ask for ideas or help if you'd like it and search the recipe forums too!

Be Well and Welcome!

gertvegan
Aug 28th, 2004, 01:49 PM
Hello Thundercat, welcome to the board. Heres a Peta website you will be interested to view. www.fishinghurts.com

harpy
Aug 28th, 2004, 02:29 PM
The dolphin-friendly tuna is supposed to be caught in such a way that dolphins don't get caught accidentally at the same time, but it's a bit of a myth that dolphins are not harmed according to this article:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1208706,00.html

This page summarises some arguments against fish eating. http://fishinghurts.com/pain.html

What are you trying to achieve in your diet, Thundercat? Tell us and maybe we can suggest some vegan alternatives to tuna.

Thundercat
Aug 28th, 2004, 02:54 PM
Now that Im vegan I feel that I am almost forced to eat more Carbohydrates from veggies and bread. Im a weight anxious person. Tuna has no carbs and is very healthy for you. Im going to go back and look at some of those websites posted. I read that tuna,shrimp, shellfish...dont feel pain and the main concern is for the by product (dolphins and seaturtles)Ill do some more research. :D

harpy
Aug 28th, 2004, 03:13 PM
I'm a long-standing vegan who's inclined to be a bit overweight but since the start of the year I've been making a special effort to eat healthily and I've lost over 20 lbs without restricting my food intake at all. All I've done is to cut out junk and convenience food and try and eat foods with a lower glycaemic index (so for example I mostly eat wholegrain rye bread instead of ordinary wholemeal that I used to have before).

Admittedly I have been trying to take a bit more exercise but all it is is just brisk walking for half an hour to an hour most days plus occasional weight lifting in my bathroom :)

So you definitely don't need to eat tuna to lose weight. Even if I didn't have an ethical objection to fish eating (because from what I've read I think they probably do feel pain) I would have reservations about its healthiness because of the pollutants fish often contains.

ConsciousCuisine
Aug 28th, 2004, 03:34 PM
Now that Im vegan I feel that I am almost forced to eat more Carbohydrates from veggies and bread. Im a weight anxious person. Tuna has no carbs and is very healthy for you. Im going to go back and look at some of those websites posted. I read that tuna,shrimp, shellfish...dont feel pain and the main concern is for the by product (dolphins and seaturtles)Ill do some more research. :D
Tuna is *not* "very healthy for you". Fish contains various heavy metals, fish basically live constantly bathed in toxic waste and animal proteins are hard on the body. If you need any information about this, just ask or do a Google search under "fish, heavy metals, contaminants" :)

gertvegan
Aug 28th, 2004, 03:37 PM
Check out this fishing for facts. (http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/fish/reporttext.htm)

Thundercat
Aug 28th, 2004, 06:18 PM
Ok OK no more tuna, now Im sick to my stomach! :o
Its good though!

Gorilla
Oct 28th, 2004, 09:19 PM
i read these in the latest issue of the Ecologist magazine and i thought they were so cute! the info was provided by Fish and Fisheries magazine, "a refereed academic journal which exists to benefit all involved with the broad field of the biology of fish and their exploitation and conservation at a professional level, whether in government, university or international agency research, the fisheries industry or the conservation movement."


Fish can learn to avoid nets by studying members of their shoal
They can recognise individual members of their shoal
One species of South African fish actually uses a tool: it lays eggs on leaves so that it can carry them to a safe place if the need arises
Contrary to the goldfish bowl jokes, fish have a memory span of at least three months
They communicate with each other using squeaks, squeals, and other low-frequency sounds that humans can hear only with special instruments
Some fish keep 'gardens', encouraging the growth of algae they enjoy eating and weeding out types they don't
Many fish build nests for their young
Fish feel pain: a two-year study conducted by scientists at Edinburgh University and Scotland's Roslin Institute confirmed that fish suffer when they are impaled in the mouth and pulled into an environment in which they cannot breathe

i wouldn't have needed a two year study to conclude that fish feel pain...but what i really liked was the idea of fish keeping their own little 'allotments' of algae they like to eat :o ok i'm silly but i wanted to share it :)

Gorilla
Oct 28th, 2004, 09:30 PM
thanks a lot Leigh :D

i just loved the idea of little gardening fish LOL

and of course they're good things to quote when people say things like, 'oh but fish don't count, they can't feel pain, they're not intelligent' :rolleyes:

Geoff
Oct 28th, 2004, 10:10 PM
And John Howard has control of both houses of parliament thanks, in part, to a secret deal between the Nationals and the Fishing Party. Apparently, the Nationals will push for a reduction of the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park in return for the fish killers preferences.
There have been studies showing that fish feel pain but the other stuff is new to me and very useful. Thanks Gorilla :)

veganblue
Oct 29th, 2004, 12:16 AM
I wonder if it would be possible to demand that since it has been shown that fish feel pain, then the suffering they endure should be taken into account and fishing practices modified to avoid this suffering? It would be nice if is spelled the end of the oceanic rape that currently occurs but I fear that if the suffering of animals on land is hardly acknowledged - how will the majority develop compassion for our aquatic friends?

mysh
Oct 29th, 2004, 12:23 AM
...our aquatic friends?

:eek:
Hey! What have you heard? Anyway, not only didn't it happen, but it was an accident, and the "aquatic friend"'s fault either way! :o



(sorry - I just liked the formulation of "aquatic friend", and as my mind lives in the gutter...)

Roxy
Oct 29th, 2004, 05:23 AM
Hey Gorilla - I'm going to email that to my parents. They are avid "fisherpeople" and they know that I hate it - so perhaps this will be some "food for thought" for them :) Thanks!

Mystic
Oct 29th, 2004, 05:35 AM
thanks a lot Leigh :D
i just loved the idea of little gardening fish LOL
:

I thought that was adorable too!!!!

eve
Oct 29th, 2004, 06:14 AM
Thank you Gorilla - where I live practically everyone loves fishing. Among my friends, I've quoted various facts, but these are new to me. Thank you.

Gorilla
Oct 29th, 2004, 09:31 AM
my dad and brother both enjoy fishing, and it makes me very sad. i'd managed to convince my brother to go veggie at the same time i did, but he decided he liked fishing too much to stay veggie (as well as finding the peer pressure too difficult). my dad usually only catches fish such as trout to eat nowadays, but they also used to like fishing just for the 'sport' and would throw many back, and tell me this was ok because the fish weren't killed. i still knew the fish suffer by being taken out of the water and having a hook stuck through their mouths. my parents have a pond in their garden where they keep koi carp and they are very fond of them, but they can't seem to see the connection between 'their' fish and the fish they eat. :(

if only this would change the fishing industry, but i believe people have known for years that fish are capable of feeling pain and it doesn't seem to make any difference. it's also a well known fact that fishing is depleting marine life and kills many other species that aren't eaten, but little is done about this either. i was pleased to hear however that around the island of Lundy, off the coast of south west England, they are conducting a no-fishing zone to help sea life recover from years of damage, and conservationists are saying it's been a huge success so far. :)

Trendygirl
Oct 29th, 2004, 01:46 PM
About a year ago I rescued a goldfish from a friend of mine. He was keeping it in one of those bottles that you make homemade wine in, no gravel, plants or filter. He gave it to me to look after when he went on holiday and I wouldnít give it back to him! He is now much happier in a big tank, with a filter, plants and I bought him some friends. Iíve decided to never buy fish again! I opened my eyes now to fish shops, I didnít realise they were so bad then. They are quite evil, I hate having to buy fish food and plants from them smell shops! :mad:

Even though I have fish that my housemate is welcome to help look after she insisted on buying some for herself the other day. Even though she told me the other week that she used to keep fish but she didnít look after them & tried to starve them to death. Now she has two more to put through hell! They are in a bowl with out a filter which would keep the water in good condition, although they do have some plants at least to give them oxygen and to nibble on. I almost got in a fight with her in the shop when the bought them, she would not believe me that you needed water purifier as tap water burns the poor fishes skin. At the time I didnít know that the reason she wanted to come with me when I was getting some plants for my fish is because she was going to buy some. Maybe she knew that I would try change her mind! :mad:

When I was there I saw some tinny little water snails in a tank, I knew that the owner of the shop didnít like them as they eat the plants, so I asked if I could have them. He gave them to me for free and I saved their lives! My house mates think that I am nuts but they are now living happily on my fish tank.
:)

Andie
Nov 2nd, 2004, 06:13 PM
Oh Gorilla,
Thanks for sharing the fish info. I too love the thought of the fish in their gardens. Imagine mother fish rousing her babies from the nest and taking them out to the garden. Then over the visit their friends.
I know I could be accused of anthromorphicizing (spelling??) animals but hey, I'm an animal! I feel affection for flies and spiders, brings out the maternal instinct.
How people could think fish don't feel pain is nuts. Regarding the folks who say fish aren't smart enough to feel pain, they are dumb but wouldn't like it if someone stepped on their toe.

Trendygirl
Nov 9th, 2004, 03:13 PM
It is all my fault; my poor fish! :(

About a year ago I rescued a fish from a friend of mine who was badly miss treating it. The fish seemed very frightened and lonely as he wouldnít come out from hiding in the plants, so I bought him some friends (I would never buy from a pet shop now but at the time I didnít realise all the problems associated with buying fish from a fish shop). Now one of his friends has got a lump on his tummy that looks like a spot. It is just under his skin on his belly and if I had the lump it would be the size of a golf ball in comparison.

In fear of it being cancer (as it is one of those mutant/freak of nature, fat deformed fish) I rang the vets who passed me onto another vet and then onto an aquatics specialist shop. After about a 15minute talk we arrived at the conclusion that it was Ďcarp poxí which apparently doesnít hurt and is caused by alterations in water temperate. My fish has only had this lump for a few days and apart from the lump he is acting normally. It seems that when I cleaned out the tank the other day I made the water too warm for them. At the time I thought it was a little too warm but I was in a rush to get them back into the tank. I had only cleaned the tank out 3 days before but the water had got really dirty because the food flakes I had been feeding them were very fine and had not been eaten.

Thankfully the man at the aquatics place said it should get better in a few days/weeks. I hope so as it is cancer there is not much that can be done as the fish is so small!

I will have to be much more careful from now on! I feels so bad : ( It just goes to show that we shouldnít keep fish. I am happy to take anyoneís fish if they arenít looking after them but I will never buy another again! I treat my fish as well as anyone could in a tank situation and watch them everyday to make sure that they are fit and healthy. Sometimes I watch them for hours, people might think that they are boring but I know that each one has itís own personality! The two fish that stand out the most is Nemo (my housemates named him), an albino minnow who loves to chase all the other fish even though he is much smaller then them. Actually he is a bit of a bully but never bites the other fish, he just likes tormenting them for no apparent reason. When I fist got him I was a bit worried that he would feel left out, being the only small fish, but I think he seems to love it! He even does a strange kind of dance sometimes, it is hard to explain but he flicks his tummy of the bottom of the tank and it seems to be a happy response. He is always the last fish I catch when I am cleaning the tank out, he is so fast and really intelligent. Much more than the big dopy fish that donít make much of an effort to get away. He makes me laugh so much, he is like one of those kids that do the most naughtiest things but you canít tell them off because you are too busy laughing at the thing they did. :D

The other fish doesnít have a name, he is a loach and is one of those fish that stay at the bottom of the tank or suck onto the side of the tank. He doesnít swim much but prefers to use his fins to walk across the bottom of the tank. When he does swim it is only so that he can sit on the large ceramic horse I put in the tank. It is so funny, he perches himself on the horses head and surveys his kingdom. Even my housemates love to watch the fish. I should film them and then add voices to represent each fish, it would make interesting watching. Maybe it would make people realise that they are intelligent and need more than a bowl of untreated water to live in. As well as good water quality, they need stimulation in the form of other fish to interact with, plants to swim among and nibble, gravel to forage for food in, places to hide and current to swim against. ;)