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snaffler
Apr 17th, 2005, 04:50 PM
Use a health / animal welfare view.

The use of (Posimat Step 2) - (this is the product trade name) in UK Dairy cattle is used to increase milk yeild per cow this in turn causes severe health implacations to the cow herself causing
her severe discomfort and pain this is combatted with more chemicals being injected into her and in turn overiding the health problems that can be caused by Posimat step 2 a milk yeilding and growth chemical, made of god knows what ?.

Their has been for some time now but still unreleased evidence that this can and has caused growths and tumours in cows and many people in the research industry question if this can cause cancer / growths / tumors in humans by being passed through the milk.

Astrocat
Apr 17th, 2005, 04:57 PM
but Snaffler - they wouldnt be doing that out in the Alps when his mum was little, so she quite probably would simply totally dismiss the truth accordingly.

She'll probably do that with the point i added about pasteurisation, too.

John
Apr 17th, 2005, 07:07 PM
It seems that you need a two-pronged argument. One prong addressing the reality of where our dairy comes from; and the other prong addressing this supposed cow utopia.

We can easily point out what is wrong with inseminating a cow against her will; stealing her baby; keeping her baby chained in a small, dark, enclosure, until killing the baby; keeping the cow hooked up to machines for a large portion of her life; keeping the cow inside a crowded buliding for most of her life; giving her hormones to make her overproduce milk; feeding her a diet which causes her to be in pain and subject to infections; giving her large doses of antibiotics to fight these infections; and then killing her after her productivity has peaked.

On the other hand, in this lovely Alpine village the cow will only mate with a bull if she chooses to do so. The male calves are allowed to either become studs or they are castrated humanely and made to work as oxen since none are ever killed to eat. Even though the cows have to spend the winter in a barn, they are allowed to go out into the valleys during the warm months. Of course, there is no dairy with a milking-machine nearby which could irritate an udder and all milking is done by hand. Despite the strain put on their bodies by the constant production of milk, their health is never negatively affected. Finally, the cows die of old age.

If I were stuck in a small mountain village I might have to accept this life.

As good as this hypothetical (and imaginary) situation may sound, one is still living as a parasite on these cows. Since we can get all of the nutrients present in millk from non-animal sources and these non-animal sources are available to us, why exploit cows?

Tigerlily
Apr 17th, 2005, 07:08 PM
You could also say:

"I'm a feminist, I respect females of all species."

This would work great for eggs too.

mysh
Apr 17th, 2005, 07:47 PM
Oh, you might want to point out to them though - that pasteurised milk, which is 99.9999999% likely to be the sort which they are buying, is very capable indeed of killing a healthy calf within 90 days or less, as this process is such a perversion from nature.

Now that I did not know. Very fascinating!

mysh
Apr 17th, 2005, 07:58 PM
It seems that you need a two-pronged argument. One prong addressing the reality of where our dairy comes from; and the other prong addressing this supposed cow utopia.

Yup - that's exactly what I'm looking for. And the reality is that in the Alpine villages where my mother used to go for vacation, and where some of her family still do go, the second scenario is really still true.

Anyway, I guess what I'm trying to get at here is the distinction between Animal Rights and Animal Welfare. If you show any rational person how cows are treated in a dairy factory farm, they'll be horrified and by strongly against it. So the Animal Welfare movement will now work strongly to improve the conditions for the cow. Then they say, "look, these are happy cows, they are treated well, allowed to live their lives, milked only of their excess milk," etc. You and I both know this is still unacceptable - the cow needs to be given its freedom. That's the Animal Rights aspect - animals should have the right to live their lives largely unimpacted by humans. But to persuade omnis of this you have to be able to argue why you think animals have these rights. So in this idyllic scenario for the cows, how do you argue?

Geoff
Apr 17th, 2005, 10:36 PM
The 'idyllic' situation still involves cows bred to have extremely enlaged udders, which would never occur in nature (and must be uncomfortable, to say the least). You only have to look at a horse to see that. And what happens to the male calves? It may LOOK idyllic but what goes on behind the scenes? :(

clawsy
Apr 18th, 2005, 12:48 AM
My 2 cents - I tend to think drinking milk is worse than eating meat. - I think milk looks less horrible as there no blood and guts and it doesn’t seem so much like a piece of flesh, so people are able to keep eating it a lot more easily than eating meat.
But I think drinking the cows milk causes more animal suffering than eating the cows flesh, A cow and MANY calves suffer to make milk. When you eat meat you are killing one animal, when you drink milk you are paying for heaps to be killed. The milk industry supplies the meat industry and the two are intertwined.

I also read that sometimes (and given populations that means thousands) dairy cows are pregnant when they are slaughtered. Most people gross out at this, to imagine baby calves suffocating in their mothers tummy when she is killed, or that a mother cow has to give birth in the slaugherhouse :( or to see their almost full grown fetuses in the slaughterhouse blood, Viva has some good pictures and articles about pregnant dairy cows being killed.

In my city, ages ago a dairy cow being taken to the slaughterhouse gave birth on the truck pretty much outside the building, on the motorway. The road outside it is a big steep hill and the calf rolled out of the truck and onto the road, the zoo took it and adopted it. At the time motorists were all freaking out because of this poor animal and it was in the paper.

Michelle
Apr 18th, 2005, 02:39 AM
Have you reminded your mom and others that the milk they buy from the supermarket does not come from the "Cow's Paradise" farm that she fondly remembers? I get this argument all the time. I just tell them, "well, the milk you get at Wal-Mart doesn't come from Uncle Jed's farm, it comes from a factory farm" and they usually shut up because they ALL shop at Wal-Mart *big snarl*. But, they still run over and buy the milk.

On a side note: I've noticed lately that I can buy a gallon of soymilk for the same price that my husband can buy a gallon of cow's milk. No more of the excuse that it's cheaper than soymilk these days.

mysh
Apr 18th, 2005, 03:48 AM
Actually, I don't know what the dairy farming conditions are like in Germany. Definitely a lot less hormones used (as they're illegal over there, due to the undesirable side effect of growing breasts on young boys).
Nonetheless, she does often go to farmer's markets where the small farmers go, who frequently do still have fairly idyllic farms.

I don't want to keep making the "it can be this bad" argument, when I know perfectly well that's spurious. We all know how terrible the dairy factory farms are. But would you drink the milk of a happy alpine cow, bred by choice, raised by its mother, on cow's milk, milked by hand, etc.? I certainly wouldn't anymore, so obviously the horrible treatment cows get in the factory farm isn't the only factor leading to my choice. And I still eat all kinds of junk food (e.g. Golden Oreos), so the healther thing certainly isn't it for me. So how do I explain to others that it shouldn't be a personal choice, that the decision to drink milk is no more defensible than buying cotton from a slave plantation?

mysh
Apr 18th, 2005, 03:51 AM
On a side note: I've noticed lately that I can buy a gallon of soymilk for the same price that my husband can buy a gallon of cow's milk. No more of the excuse that it's cheaper than soymilk these days.

Yes, that is good!
My wife gets organic cow milk for herself and the kids, and my in-laws kinda freaked out this weekend - they wanted "normal" milk. What a bunch of morons!

On another aside, my son has a school friend whose mother grew up on a dairy farm. She used to have to inject the crap into the cows. She won't touch cow's milk with a barge pole.

snivelingchild
Apr 18th, 2005, 06:12 AM
Well, in the ideal situation, the heart of animal right, I think, comes down to just that, rights. It is easier to see the wrong if we, in the past in the U.S., if black slaves we're not beaten or hurt, but their excess breast milk was taken away without their say in the matter. It depends on choice. It is their milk, and they should have a right to choose to keep it, and since they cannot be asked, it should not be taken.

If a woman whose newborn has died, but they are still capable of producing milk, they might choose to donate it for women who can't. But, imagine it being taken away against their will for people who don't NEED it. Most people would think that unacceptable, and I think the major point in animal rights is that all animals deserve the same basic rights as we do, thus making milk taking unethical.

This is what makes eating bugs or other supposed "unfeeling" beings, taking eggs, and taking milk unethical. Unless it is a choice you feel you must make for the good of the animal or of all animals (such as spaying and neutering or food choices of a companion animal), I think this applies.

eve
Apr 18th, 2005, 09:56 AM
This afternoon outside the complex where I live, one of my male neighbours was talking with an electrician who came to fix the outside lights. The 'sparky' was saying to my neighbour that cows milk is all wrong for humans, etc, and my neighbour argued that he buys heaps of milk to drink because it has calcium. Anyway, I butted in to say that Vitasoy calci+ has plenty of calcium, and so do leafy green vegetables etc. The 'sparky' had a broad grin on his face, and asked me if I'd tried almond milk as well. Afterwards, my neighbour wanted to know more, and we had a nice chat. Hopefully some small changes will come about. :)

Astrocat
Apr 18th, 2005, 03:43 PM
:) cool !


So how do I explain to others that it shouldn't be a personal choice, that the decision to drink milk is no more defensible than buying cotton from a slave plantation?

It seems to me that the issue being discussed here is a similar one to the one that was aired out in the "vegan view on eggs" topic, ie why is captivity in order to use others (ie their bodies or bodily fluids) for one's own benefits in itself a form of exploitation ?

Here there are no factory farms for a long way in any direction, so pretty much every farm is "idyllic" - the cows are still treated horribly, of course, but they look nice standing out in the fields with their swollen udders and chronic foot ulcers and digestional parasites etc.... thus the "idyllic" facade seems to be gobbled up by many consumers.

Even when there is no exploitation involved a great many people usually wouldn;t go sucking the titties of a human (ie their next-door-neighbour) to get milk - and give lame reasoning like "ewwww but that's GROSS" if asked why not (similar to the cat-milk debate) , so it seems thoroughly bizarre that it should be expected that people should have to justify not second-handedly sucking the titties of a cow, goat or sheep just because people en masse are conditioned not to find this gross or unnatural.

mysh
Apr 19th, 2005, 04:20 AM
Eve - you are an awesome advocate!

snivelingchild - you write what's in my head.

Astrocat - I love the way you described that - the "second-handed sucking [of] titties of a cow" made me laugh!

celtic rose
Apr 19th, 2005, 10:54 AM
The only time you'll see calves in the field with their mothers is if they are being raised for beef, ie slaughter. :mad: In this country at least.

Dairy cattle have their calves stolen from them when they're born and raised for veal (slaughter again) or as replacement dairy cattle. :evil:

eve
May 16th, 2005, 07:12 AM
In the weekend paper, there's a quote from Archives of Internal Medicine 2005, which states that men who eat lots of dairy foods may lower their risk of developing type 2 diabetes as well as their risk of prostate cancer! Where do they get these "facts" ?

Billy
May 16th, 2005, 07:37 AM
I think that if one has a house, some land and a cow, and is and looking after that cow with love and protection (until that cow dies of a natural death) and the owner of the cow decides that he or she wants milk and is willing to look after the calf as well as the cow threw sickness and health then one should take some milk for his endeavor. The cows should not be treated like machines and killed at the age of 4. If you want milk then treat the cow like your mother and protect her tell she dies naturally. Don't take the cheap way out and buy dairy from the store. Produce milk from your own protected cow.

Contrary to popular belief, cows do not "produce" milk forever once they've had one calf. Just like any other mammal, a cow would need to give birth to a calf year after year in order to keep the milk production up. Also, I'm sure that you know that calves don't just materialise; the cow will have to be impregnated first, which is another chapter of another industry altogether.
Basically, cows don't need to be "kept" and I don't know why anyone should be rewarded for their "endeavour" to keep a cow enslaved. And as for "treating the cow like your mother", if you were to treat your mother like the cow, I'm sure you'd be at least rapped for indecent behaviour!
"Producing milk form your cow": just the sentence before you're saying that cows should not be treated like machines. Well you "produce" things from machines. The cow produces the milk herself, and it's not for humans to drink. Whoever started the rumour that animals produce nourishment for humans must've been insane!


This is not a vegan diet , but a good start for vegetarians . Note to all vegetarians consider going conditional vegan (wich means to only have milk from protected cows. Because if one just gets dairy from the store then one is associated with the killing of that cow, as 100% of dairy cows are killed for beef). Im just saying that not all people are going to give up all milk and dairy products. A good step for all those who have gone vegetarian would be to only take milk from protected cows this is a great start. Other wise one should question why one is vegetarian.

"Conditional vegan"?? When did that term come about? It's like a "pescatarian"; someone who doesn't eat meat from birds or mammals, but continues to eat fish and wants themselves to stand out from the meat eaters anyway (for their "endeavour" of not eating certain animals?). Please let's keep things simple! If you eat any kind of meat from any kind of animal you're a meateater, if you don't eat meat but use other animal products you're veggie, and only when you DON'T use ANY animal products at all you can call yourself a vegan. Let's not go into this mollycuddling of people who want to be made to feel special because they show a fraction more of compassion than the average, ignorant meat eater.

Dairy cows, by the way, are not turned into beef as such. They might be turned into cheap mince or pet food. McDeath, for instance, uses beef cattle, which have been blown up to monstrous proportions so as to get as much meat as possible off one animal.

cedarblue
May 20th, 2005, 01:49 PM
heard on the radio today that after 30yrs of there being a downsurge in milk sales, the new figures show milk sales soaring due to the huge popularity in all the coffee shops opening up in our high streets eg, costa coffee, starbucks etc.

apparently 'we' are all consuming lattes, mochas, chocomocho-dodahs by the gallon full and the demand for milk has upturned.

the mmb [milk market board] also said how they are trying to get more milk back into schools " as we need to get as much calcium into young kids as possible. after the age of 20 the depletion of calcium begins and the first stages for osteoporosis set in"

- er nothing to do with £££ then? :mad:

FR
May 20th, 2005, 01:59 PM
Stupid F%$#%@$% dairy industry. Looks they want kids to develop osteoperosis because that is the effect cow milk consumption has on human beings. :mad:

cedarblue
May 20th, 2005, 06:36 PM
heard on the radio today that after 30yrs of there being a downsurge in milk sales, the new figures show milk sales soaring due to the huge popularity in all the coffee shops opening up in our high streets eg, costa coffee, starbucks etc.

apparently 'we' are all consuming lattes, mochas, chocomocho-dodahs by the gallon full and the demand for milk has upturned.

the mmb [milk market board] also said how they are trying to get more milk back into schools " as we need to get as much calcium into young kids as possible. after the age of 20 the depletion of calcium begins and the first stages for osteoporosis set in"

- er nothing to do with £££ then? :mad:



interesting - still listening to the radio - had a few calls talking about giving school kids milk anddairy/milk intolerance and also some "milk is for the calves" calls too! :)

Glen
May 20th, 2005, 08:37 PM
Apparently, milk sales have gone up for the first time in 30 years. Although they have been suffering from a severe slump for a long time. I hope this isn't the start of everybody drinkin milk and eating dairy more. :(

Gorilla
May 20th, 2005, 08:44 PM
i saw this too and was quite disappointed to hear it. apparently it's people's love of cappuccinos that has caused the rise in milk consumption. haven't they ever tried a soyaccino? :p

i was surprised that the average person drinks about 3.7 pints of milk a week too - that seems a heck of a lot!!! i doubt i drink that much soya milk a week... :confused:

Glen
May 20th, 2005, 08:52 PM
Yeah that suprised me two. I mean, I didn't drink anywhere near that when I wasn't vegan. I probably drink 2-3 pints soya/rice/oat milk a week now.

snaffler
May 20th, 2005, 10:11 PM
Give it 18 months "Milk Is Bad For You" as a nation we are all consuming to much this leading to well we all know.

Liberate the cows dam filthy farmers :mad: