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Suzulan
May 21st, 2005, 05:43 AM
Why nobody told people about www.notmilk.com?
How about little dirty secret of dairy farms where many newborn male calves are thrown in dead pile alive and starve to death or freeze to death?

tails4wagging
May 21st, 2005, 06:22 AM
I have a friend who drinks 4 pints of the stuff a week!!!!!.

And she has a very strong family link to breast cancer, her gran died from it as well as her mum and sister. I have told her about the possible link from dairy milk to cancer, but she still drinks the stuff. I have given her soya milk to try, but she doesnt like it!.

tails4wagging
May 21st, 2005, 06:24 AM
Does anyone know of a weblink about the possible connection between milk consumption and breast/testicular cancer??. Perhaps if I show her she may listen.

Korn
May 21st, 2005, 07:20 AM
Try this...: http://www.google.com/search?num=30&hl=en&lr=&client=safari&rls=en&q=dairy+products+cancer&btnG=Search

Yoggy
Jul 11th, 2005, 06:18 AM
I hate to admit it, but even though I am disgusted with the dairy industry, I actually like the taste of milk. But I still can't consider drinking it without gagging, and I will never drink another glass. I'm reminded of when I was omni living in Thailand, and my favourite Thai food was Nam Tok (spicy pork and vegetables in a salty sauce). I loved the sauce. It wasn't until much later that I found out that the "sauce" was actually pig blood! I was grossed out, and vowed never to eat Nam Tok again, because even though I liked the taste, I wouldn't be able to stomach it knowing where it came from. And the same goes for milk: knowing what I now know about milk and the dairy industry, I simply can't drink milk, regardless of whether or not I like the taste.

I'm happy to hear that many long-time vegans lose their "taste" for milk, and actually hate the stuff after trying it for the first time in a long time.

Suzulan
Jul 13th, 2005, 12:46 PM
Yoggy, just knowing how newborn unwanted worthless calves are dumped in dead pile alive and freeze to death or starve to death is more than enough reason to boycott dairy products.
It is heart breaking experience to hear sad cry of mother cows who are desperately trying to find their babies without knowing that their babies are killed in most inhumane manner or end up in veal crate.
Little dirty secret of dairy farms sicken me more than anything else!
Yes, anybody who consuming dairy products are responsible for shocking cruelty of cows and their calves.
Robert Cohen had(I think he still has) article titled 'How to kill baby cow' on his www.notmilk.com
Dairy industry tell anything to people to get us to eat dairy products but we all know dairy products weaken our bones and cause of many diseases.
I love soy dream ice cream and all other soy products.

Elis
Sep 11th, 2005, 09:01 PM
Uhm, sorry guys, but our milk here does come from very pretty Alpine farms, many organic or damn near, but this does not stop at least some cattle from suffering. Fact is that when they breed dairy cows and the calf is male - even in the alps - it will end up at the slaughter house sooner or later. All that time in a lovely pasture will not prevent this. A male dairy cow taking up pasture land is not very economical, you don't need many to breed a herd and - I hate to break it to you but - they have tractors in the alps too. So no, they don't need steers for plowing. And on the last point, we thankfully don't have much factory farming in the alpine region. The slaughter houses - however - are no more humane than anywhere else (not that I should be putting the words humane and slaughter house in the same sentence). Besides which, many animals are sold at auction and then transported to other countries to farms or slaughter houses. This includes those sweet ponies they have in villages or on small farms that host vacationers.

Blueshark
Mar 19th, 2006, 07:20 PM
On a few occasions I have eaten pre-prepared food, which I found out later had some dairy products in it. It seems I have developed a lactose intolerence, and I get bloating and nausea after digesting dairy.

Is there anything I can take to relieve these symptoms?

(I suspect the food on the train today may have had some cheese in it)

Korn
Apr 30th, 2006, 08:11 PM
Hello, I'm new to this board or forum, whichever you prefer. I am curious about veganism. I respect the lifestyle. It is not my chosen lifestyle and I do not criticize those who are vegan. I just have some things I need to understand. I understand, although I would find it difficult to adapt to this lifestyle, that vegans don't use any animal products. I just don't see anything wrong with having a grilled cheese sandwich once in awhile or having some scrambled eggs or even drinking a glass of milk. If someone could explain this to me I would really appreciate the info.
thank you.


Hi!
We have a few thousand posts about these topics already - plaese look around, and I'm sure you'll understand more about why vegans are vegans... :)

You may want to check out these threads:
Vegans and eggs (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1370)
Arguments against dairy products (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3737)

Maisiepaisie
Apr 30th, 2006, 11:45 PM
Hi Jeff, I think the reason you asked whats wrong with cheese, eggs, milk etc is because you're unaware of the suffering caused in order to have these products. Like Korn said have a look round the forum and you will find answers. This is also a good link http://www.viva.org.uk/goingvegan/index.html

Glen
May 1st, 2006, 12:00 AM
Hey there Jeff.

Basically, Vegans don't eat any animal products for moral reasons. Every single part of the animal products industry represents extreme suffering to the animals and a wastefullness and overconsumption that is unprecedented. Let me expand on the moral reasons behind it all:

Meat
This is fairly obvious. When we eat meat, we are paying for somebody to kill an animal, purely for the satisfaction of our tastebuds. We do not need meat to live healthy lives, this has been well documented; some studies show that Vegitarians actually live longer. If we can live without meat, why take an animals life? In addition, the conditions on modern intensive (factory) farms are horrendous. Search the internet for factory farming and you will easily see why Vegans do not wish to play a part in animals' suffering.

Milk/Cheese/Dairy
When dairy cows are 'spent', i.e. no longer of use for producing milk, they are sent to slaughter to be used as meat. This meat represents a substantial percentage of all beef. Furthermore, the male cows which are born are of no use to dairy farmers, and are sold cheaply to be used as meat, or exported in terrible conditions to be used for Veal in foreign countries where the laws permit tremendous animal suffering. Vegans do not use dairy products because they are inexplicably linked to the meat industry.

Baby calves are taken from their mother after only a few days, it would be weeks in the wild. This causes both distress. The dairy cows are then kept in lactation constantly and are fed hormones and anti-biotics to promote unnaturally high levels of milk. This over-milking causes painful udder infections and crippling lameness to a large proportion of dairy cows.

On a health note; why would a human drink milk that is designed to nourish a baby cow? Many studies now implicate dairy products as a cause of juvenile-onset diabetes, osteoperosis and obesity. Humans are the only species that drink another species milk. It is unnatural and illogical.

Eggs
The conditions that egg-laying hens are kept in are quite possibly the most disturbing of any animal used for human produce. Hundreds, even thousands of hens are crammed into windowless sheds in tiny cages. Often, hens only have an area about the size of an A4 piece of paper to live. For their whole lives they will be deprived of their natural instincts and kept in a constant state of laying by shock-starvation, anti-biotics and simulated winter. The hens are sent to slaughter when they become unprofitable.

Again, feel free to look up the health issues with eggs. We are the only species that conduct this strange behaviour, and we have to question why we eat chicken periods as a 'nutritious' food.


That was a long post and my hands are aching, but I hope it has given you some insight as to why Vegans make the choice they do. It is essentially a boycott; eating animals or using animal 'products' is morally wrong, on a number of levels (read up on Peter Singer, Thomas Regan etc.), and unnecessary, so we dont do it.

Glen x

saucyvegan
May 1st, 2006, 09:56 AM
And just remember Jeff, when u eat a chickens egg, its a chickens period!!:o
Also, by law, dairy products allow blood cells and animal puss into the food. YUK!!

Dont think we all eat just fruit and veg. We can eat almost everything that you do, just with replaced animal puss products. Yesterday, I had roast "chicken" (u need to go to specialised places to get this wonderful product but I buy it in bulk so its no problem for me), followed by apple and rhubarb pie with ice cream. Check out the Swedish Glaze ice cream most supermarkets do now if you just want to see what its like.

UrbanVegan
May 23rd, 2006, 03:57 PM
What do you all think about milk? I know that you are all vegans, but do you really think milk is bad for you?

My view is that cow's milk is for baby cows :o I figure it has no business in my body.

veggiegirl3
May 26th, 2006, 11:45 PM
My friend told me last night that calcium fortification in food/beverages was a marketing gimick, and it can't be absorbed well unless it is naturally in the food (like milk). I told him I get enough calcium from soy milk, tofu, brocoli, ect, but he said since it has been added to the fortified foods, it is not absorbed and brocoli only has a small amount. I'm so bad at debating with him; he is very intelligent and has a lot of facts to back himself up. He also told me that he met a vegetarian who was deficient in PROTEIN, which I said is very rare. He said humans are meant to get protein from both plant and animal sources, and plant sources are missing amino acids. I told him that throughout the day, eating a variety of foods gives you all of the nutrients you need, but he said that's not true...How can I prove that a vegan diet is healthy?? I truly believe that it is.

UrbanVegan
May 27th, 2006, 03:42 AM
How can I prove that a vegan diet is healthy?? I truly believe that it is.

Find some statistics about the state of health of vegans verses non-vegans. Things like a decrease in diseases, increase in life span, things like that. Look for a long term study on vegans.

Roxy
May 27th, 2006, 04:24 AM
My friend told me last night that calcium fortification in food/beverages was a marketing gimick, and it can't be absorbed well unless it is naturally in the food (like milk). I told him I get enough calcium from soy milk, tofu, brocoli, ect, but he said since it has been added to the fortified foods, it is not absorbed and brocoli only has a small amount. I'm so bad at debating with him; he is very intelligent and has a lot of facts to back himself up. He also told me that he met a vegetarian who was deficient in PROTEIN, which I said is very rare. He said humans are meant to get protein from both plant and animal sources, and plant sources are missing amino acids. I told him that throughout the day, eating a variety of foods gives you all of the nutrients you need, but he said that's not true...How can I prove that a vegan diet is healthy?? I truly believe that it is.

With regards to the calcium thing......

I have been closely watching the foods and nutrients I consume and have been entering everything I eat and drink, into fitday each day.

One thing I have noticed through doing this, is that I'm finding it difficult to meet my RDA for calcium. I am thinking seriously about taking a calcium supplement now.

I have heard that from as early as age 30, women's bones can start losing their bone density, leading to osteoperosis later in life. I very much want to avoid this happening.

DianeVegan
May 27th, 2006, 10:58 AM
Oh boy, the great calcium and protein debate.

First of all, we don't appear to know all that much about calcium considering that we eat so much of it (in all forms) in some countries and yet have the highest rates of osteoporosis in those same nations. As far as how digestible calcium salts are, I think there is some debate still out there but here is my understanding:

Calcium citrate is very absorbable and contains 210 mg Ca per 1 gm of salt
Calcium lactate is somewhat absorbable and contains 130 mg per gm of salt
Calcium carbonate is only moderately absorbable at 400 mg per gm of salt

But that's not the whole story since absorption and retention is determined mostly by what we eat with our calcium. Ca is a big acid buffer in the bloodstream and will either (1) not be absorbed or (2) be drawn from the bones when the blood becomes acidified. Meat causes acidity, dairy and grains cause moderated acidity and vegetables/fruits cause alkalinity.

Calcium is necessary for sodium excretion (about 25 mg for every 1 gm of sodium excreted by the kidneys).

Phosphoric acids in soft drinks decrease calcium absorption.

All protein is neutralized by calcium, especially sulfur-containing amino acids (methionine and cysteine) which are more concentrated in animal proteins. So high protein diets will require higher calcium intakes.

:confused: And this is just what we know so far. Was anyone having this discussion 80 years ago? Not at all. And 80 years from now there will be more questions than answers al well.

There is no way to determine if a person is getting enough calcium in there diet because blood tests are useless since your blood will always try to maintain a balanced pH and calcium level. I think calcium intake is too simplified and doesn't answer all the questions. Of course, most of us want easy answers and many people/organizations are trying to give them to us.

From what I know, in order to maintain a good calcium balance: 1) Don't eat a high protein diet (not even high plant protein), 2) Avoid high levels of sodium, so don't eat processed foods, 3) Avoid soft drinks, 4) Do weight bearing exercise (gravity and lifting weight has been proven to affect bone density). Also, make sure you are getting Vit D supplements or sunshine and Magnesium - both necessary for maximum calcium assimilation.

If you are to take a supplement, be aware that high calcium intake may decrease Vit D absorption. Don't take with foods containing oxalic acid (spinach, parsley, rhubarb, some beans) and phytic acid (bran and whole cereals) because they will form insoluble compounds with the calcium, keeping it from being absorbed.



Veggiegirl3,

You can tell your friend that his information is right and wrong. Calcium supplementation is certainly as much of a marketing ploy as the "Got Milk?" campaign. And the type of calcium salt added is important. However, dairy products contain phosphorus (just like soft drinks) which binds calcium into a form that is poorly absorbed by the intestines. So, if you are drinking milk for calcium then you are excreting most of it via your urine.

And about those amino acids - our bodies do not differentiate between plant and animal protein because an amino acid is an amino acid in the blood stream. Calling an animal protein a "complete" protein is like calling a burger and fries a "complete" meal - sure, you get enough calories but you get too much of the wrong kind of calories. The biggest problems we know of now with animal protein: 1) They are too concentrated in protein, leading to calcium loss from the diet or bones, 2) They contain too much sulfur, which in addition to acidifying the urine also become metabolized to homocysteine (which is currently connected to increased risk for heart disease).

If he really want to debate amino acids with you then he can check out the "Essential Amino Acid suggested pattern of requirements for humans past infancy" put together by the WHO, FAO and UNU. This breaks down the amounts of amino acids per gram of protein needed by the human body. It would be challenging (to say the least) to try and figure out the precise recommended amounts of aa per day and which foods to eat in order to get them. But it doesn't matter because the most glaring truth is that meat has too much methionine and cysteine which definitely leads to chronic disease in meat-eating societies.

(most of my info came from the "PDR for Herbal Medicines" section on supplements and "Becoming Vegan")


Also, Veggiegirl3, you could read "The China Study," Becoming Vegan" and "The Vegan Diet as Chronic Disease Prevention." Then you could debate with your friend, if you want to.:)

Xenius13
May 29th, 2006, 01:29 AM
Years ago when I was taking a class on nutrition I did a paper on soy products. I found out several important facts. First, soybeans contain all of the essential amino acids. They have a complete protein just like meat and animal products. Second, consuming soy protein has been shown to reverse osteoporosis (some still claim this is impossible). Third, eating soy products can also remove cholesterol buildup from the cardiovascular system.

Edit: Most importantly, I found that none of the studies at the time that claimed to show evidence of health problems caused by soy consumption were scientifically sound.

Roxy
May 29th, 2006, 04:35 AM
Diane,

Thank you so much for that valuable information!! :)

I think maybe I need to look into this more, before I decide to start taking a supplement.

DianeVegan
May 30th, 2006, 12:56 PM
You are welcome, Roxy.:)

If you do take a supplement, my understanding is that you can only absorb about 500 mg at a time, so larger amounts are not worth taking. (It just continues to get complicated, doesn't it?)

sheri beri
Jun 14th, 2006, 06:21 AM
Don't you Love those ads, the milk mustache ones , celebertys touting the modern marvels of Milk....How about the latest commercials "make sure to get a few glasses of low fat milk each day to stay fit.......How about the calcium claims???wow there are alot of them......
Interestingly these commercials that 'claim' the calcium from milk will seriously cut the risk of ostepphorsis ....Except the FDA says there is no such evidence hmmm

Anyone seen the ads that milk will lower high blood pressure???What an oxymoron there , animal that causes High Blood pressure , now lowers blood pressure???hmmmm
( I guess they think we'll belive anything)



Calcium from milk makes strong bones in women?????? Not according to the 12 years nurses study it seems that women who drank two glasses of milk actually had a risk of 1.45 times higher that those that didn't...How can this be?????

Korn
Jul 6th, 2006, 09:20 AM
http://www.veg.ca/images/cowsmilk-210.gif

Here's (http://www.veg.ca/issues/dairy.html) an article from veg.ca about cow's milk...

Awareness
Aug 16th, 2006, 06:01 PM
I don't think we should steal milk from cow's when it was produced for their children. Also milk is contaminated with cow's blood, pus, as well as other chemicals and hormones. I couldn't bring myself to drink it, even if I wanted to!

philfox
Sep 13th, 2006, 05:06 PM
why cow's milk? has anyone ever wondered? i know people are proclaiming the benefits of goat's milk,( i never hear the end of goats milk up here becasue we live near a massive goats milk factory) but why cows? why not horse milk? or what about dog's milk? why not human breast milk? i find it all odd sometimes

Tigerlily
Sep 13th, 2006, 05:21 PM
I agree, Phil. And do you know what's even more weird? Dairy eaters go "eeew" at the thought of pig's milk or cat's milk. Why?