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ellaminnowpea
May 13th, 2008, 05:51 AM
but do you use conditioner on yours? :p

treehugga
May 13th, 2008, 06:21 AM
Actually, most of it is removed, It looks like a g string, so just a quick go with some natural soap :D

pavotrouge
May 13th, 2008, 06:30 AM
I know someone who does... and is not afraid to tell anyone, regardless of whether they want to hear of not.

m0nm0n1023
Nov 11th, 2008, 03:39 AM
I'm well aware of the horrors of animal slaughter. It's disgusting and cruel. So I'm a vegeterian.
I'm toying with the idea of becoming a vegan, but the problem is, I really don't know what it is that the dairy industry does to animals that's so bad. Do any of you all know?
I feel like I need to have a good reason to give up cheese (it's the one thing in this world I truly love.) and all I can find is websites promoting dairy farms.

horselesspaul
Nov 11th, 2008, 01:43 PM
http://www.milksucks.com/index2.asp

harpy
Nov 11th, 2008, 01:54 PM
The dairy industry and the meat industry are just other sides of the same coin in my opinion. Cows that are too old to produce enough milk for the farmer are slaughtered, as are surplus calves that are born to keep cows lactating.

http://www.vegansociety.com/animals/exploitation/cows/dairy_cow.php

It's worth looking at some dairy industry web sites as well as you can be sure they aren't vegan propaganda :) This is one I think:

http://future.aae.wisc.edu/data/weekly_values/by_area/2279?tab=production

flying plum
Nov 11th, 2008, 03:33 PM
ok, i have to ask this about the calves-to-keep-cows-lactating thing. because this is what i thought. but i am informed by my father that this is not the case, and once the cow has one calf, so long as they are continued to be milked they will continue to produce milk (like human wet nurses).

still don't agree with it, but i like to get my facts straight otherwise my other arguments don't sound credible...

amanda

Gorilla
Nov 11th, 2008, 03:35 PM
I feel like I need to have a good reason to give up cheese (it's the one thing in this world I truly love.)

i hope you're exaggerating there. ;)


The dairy industry and the meat industry are just other sides of the same coin in my opinion.

indeed. the dairy industry heavily support the veal industry, selling off unwanted calves for meat and feeding them with diluted milk products until they're slaughtered.

animals are not meant to be enslaved for our food.

flying plum
Nov 11th, 2008, 03:37 PM
edit - just read that vegan soc article in full. email to dad sending :)

my dad and stepmum have really started to make some conscious decisions about where they buy their meat from recently, which although isn't ideal, is much better than nothing. perhaps i can get them to think about their milk as well...

amanda

harpy
Nov 11th, 2008, 03:50 PM
I think they may go on producing some milk, but not as much as if they produced another calf. Here's an article for dairy farmers that includes a yield curve (figure 1)

http://promat.sitecheck.ca/images/uploads/Production_and_Reproduction_PM_article.pdf

Zero
Nov 11th, 2008, 04:11 PM
I generally don't tend to get into one form of abuse and cruelty being worse than any other because to me, all are equal in suffering, but there is generally more cruelty in a glass of milk or block of cheese than there is in a steak.

The dairy industry is directly responsible for a large amount of the mince beef that you see in you local supermarket, as soon as dairy cows are "spent" they are sent to the slaughter house, usually at around 4 to 7 years of age, cows can naturally live to around 20 years if they are not being used like an expendable part of a factory.

Cows do not naturally produce milk all the time (just like a human mother it is produced for the baby) they have keep being made pregnant over and over and continuously milked, and their bodies become lame from the strain of over production.

Then there is the veal issue mentioned above, the calves are either raised for veal, beef or more dairy cows.

Your current perception is exactly what the dairy industry wants you to think, we've all seen the pictures and cartoons of the happy farmer living in harmony with the animals but this is simply not the reality, it's great that you've decided to ask the questions though, I am sure most of us here have asked the very same questions at some point or another.

Basically, anytime we use animals for our own purposes, it enslaves them, removes their right to live on their own terms and is generally associated with some sort of abuse and slaughter as they are seen as nothing more than a product or a part of a machine.

I hope the links in the above posts above provide some useful reading material :)

If you have any other questions, people here will be more than happy to answer them.

harpy
Nov 11th, 2008, 04:40 PM
In the UK not that many calves are raised for veal because local consumers don't like buying it, so the farmers either kill them at birth or send them abroad to be reared for veal.

That's why you see these articles encouraging people to eat British veal on "humane" grounds - sorry to post yet another link but http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/20/ruralaffairs.animalwelfare The even more humane response of not consuming dairy produce doesn't seem to occur to them :mad:

Sarabi
Nov 11th, 2008, 05:01 PM
You can always find a good reason when it comes to animal oppression. I was in the same boat as you not long ago. I had given up red meat because it was easy, then I gave up chicken because I realized immediately that I was eating chicken to replace red meat. Then I gave up fish, which I didn't eat anyway. Partly since I never ate it, I didn't see a reason to give it up, so I went online and looked up why eating fish is bad. I found a video about bycatch that convinced me immediately. Although I didn't go looking for the stuff about veganism, but merely stumbled upon it, it would've been the same thing had I bothered to look.

Zero
Nov 11th, 2008, 05:57 PM
That's why you see these articles encouraging people to eat British veal on "humane" grounds - sorry to post yet another link but http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/20/ruralaffairs.animalwelfare (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/jan/20/ruralaffairs.animalwelfare) The even more humane response of not consuming dairy produce doesn't seem to occur to them :mad:

I just love the fact that people think that they can eat "guilt free" meat just because some silly group (who likely stand to profit from it) say "it's okay"

People get too easily swayed into false realities rather than thinking for themselves, it's used like a shortcut to actually thinking! :mad:

m0nm0n1023
Nov 12th, 2008, 01:34 PM
Okay, Gorilla. So I might have been exaggerating a little bit on the cheese. lol

But anyways, that's so terrible! Wow. I had no idea that the dairy and meat industries were so closely related. I just don't get how people can actually put an animal through that. :( it's horrible isn't it? and all for what? Human greed? Breaks my heart.
Well, soy cheese is pretty yummy too, so I guess that's how I'll be getting my cheese fix from now on.

harpy
Nov 12th, 2008, 04:42 PM
Good for you, m0n (I hope I may call you m0n? ;) ).

m0nm0n1023
Nov 12th, 2008, 06:43 PM
of course you can! :) most people do.

princesslolaluv
Jan 24th, 2011, 10:28 AM
Why is milk considered bad because if you do not milk a cow it is very painful for them.

Thanks just been very curious about this.

Andy_T
Jan 24th, 2011, 10:42 AM
Take a look at this:

http://challengeoppression.com/2010/05/03/a-cows-milk-is-not-yours-to-take/

It should give you some starters.

And yes, it is painful for them, as cows nowadays have cronically enlarged udders to give about 10 times as much milk as they would in nature.

Best regards,
Andy

Clueless Git
Jan 24th, 2011, 10:44 AM
It's painfull for a lactating woman (I have been told?) not to be milked too.

I guess one answer is simply this; If it is not right to connect a woman to a milking machine for life than why it is right to do that to a cow?

The other thing is that the 'drying up' is a gradual process as a child/calf slowly takes less and less milk from it's mother as it moves on to solid food.

The luxury of being allowed that natural less painfull process is one that the dairy industry denies to cows.

Korn
Jan 24th, 2011, 11:07 AM
I guess one answer is simply this; If it is not right to connect a woman to a milking machine for life than why it is right to do that to a cow?
Don't forget to include the fact that in order for a cow to produce milk humans can use, she must first become pregnant and then the calf will be taken away from them (probably killed and eaten).

A wild mammal produces enough milk for her own babies, and when they gradually cease to need that milk, the milk production slowly decreases. The pain 'argument' only refers to a bad side effect of the domestication and exploitation of cows.

Clueless Git
Jan 25th, 2011, 09:25 AM
Aye, very much so Korn ..

The dairy industry creates an unnatural cause of suffering to the cow (interrupted nursing of its calf) in order that they can milk it. They then argue that they have to milk the cow or else the cow will suffer.

The thing I struggle with most about that is how easily such a blindingly obvious nonsense can be slipped, unnoticed, beneath otherwise quite intelligent people's 'radars'.

Korn
Jan 25th, 2011, 10:00 AM
Hi again, princesslolaluv - we also have this thread:
Arguments against dairy products (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?3737-Arguments-against-dairy-products)

harpy
Jan 25th, 2011, 01:05 PM
The thing I struggle with most about that is how easily such a blindingly obvious nonsense can be slipped, unnoticed, beneath otherwise quite intelligent people's 'radars'.

It is surprising, but some non-vegans don't even seem to realise that cows need to have calves in order to produce milk - their mental model of milk production may be more like a fuel pump (say) than to a human mother :(

Bet you wish you hadn't asked now, princess ;)

fiamma
Jan 26th, 2011, 08:31 AM
The thing I struggle with most about that is how easily such a blindingly obvious nonsense can be slipped, unnoticed, beneath otherwise quite intelligent people's 'radars'.

Have you always been vegan, Cupid?
I can honestly say that until I became vegan, around age 30, 8 years ago, that I never really thought about how milk is produced, or the fact cows have to be pregnant in order to give milk.
I don't think it's a case of level of intelligence, or lack of; some things are simply so ingrained in our society as being "normal" that we don't even question them.