What's wrong with using dairy products?

[leedsveg]

I can honestly say that until I became vegan, around age 30, 8 years ago, that I never really thought about how milk is produced, or the fact cows have to be pregnant in order to give milk.
I don't think it's a case of level of intelligence, or lack of; some things are simply so ingrained in our society as being "normal" that we don't even question them.

Well put fiamma. It's too easy as vegans to have a 'pop' at the ignorance, daftness or lack of empathy (towards the plight of animals) of omnis, conveniently forgetting that nearly all of us were omnis at one time. Omnis now, are the people we used to be.

leedsveg

[harpy]

Yes, I find it quite hard to remember what I knew/thought before becoming vegan (though there's probably an online conference or forum archive somewhere that would tell me :o).

It seems hard to believe that we wouldn't have known cows needed to calve in order to lactate, but as fiamma says we probably just hadn't thought about it.

[Clueless Git]

'Lo LV, Fiamma,

A quick re-read of my post should make it clear that I acknowledged people to otherwise be "quite intelligent".

It's not just a matter of "not questioning" either. There is a constant institutionalised bombardment, ranging from blatant to sublimal, designed to re-inforce the anti-truths and reversals of reality that the meat industry depends upon.



Omnis now, are the people we used to be.

Words of great wisdom there LV :)

I still have the screaming hump with all the veg-heads I ever met who timidly tried tickling the concrete reinforced bunker of my ignorance with feather dusters. If they had had 'compassion' for me, or for the stream of 'victims' I was creating at the time, they would have taken sledgehammers to it.

[Festered]

Aye, very much so Korn ..

The dairy industry creates an unnatural cause of suffering to the cow (interrupted nursing of its calf) in order that they can milk it. They then argue that they have to milk the cow or else the cow will suffer.

The thing I struggle with most about that is how easily such a blindingly obvious nonsense can be slipped, unnoticed, beneath otherwise quite intelligent people's 'radars'.


Have you always been vegan, Cupid?
I can honestly say that until I became vegan, around age 30, 8 years ago, that I never really thought about how milk is produced, or the fact cows have to be pregnant in order to give milk.
I don't think it's a case of level of intelligence, or lack of; some things are simply so ingrained in our society as being "normal" that we don't even question them.

For me-intelligence encompasses questioning everything and not accepting things as okay just because the majority does them. Thinking for onself, in other words.

[Festered]

I cannot edit my post for some reason, but I want to add, the OP has done just that, I am not judging her.

[fiamma]

Festered, are you saying I'm unable to think for myself?

[leedsveg]

I still have the screaming hump with all the veg-heads I ever met who timidly tried tickling the concrete reinforced bunker of my ignorance with feather dusters. If they had had 'compassion' for me, or for the stream of 'victims' I was creating at the time, they would have taken sledgehammers to it.

Cupid. You are strong and forceful with your opinions and no doubt before you became a vegan, you were equally strong and forceful with your opinions. I think it's a bit rich though if/when we present ourselves as the victims and blame others because they didn't try hard enough to persuade us to go veggie/vegan. We expect omnis to take full responsibility for their actions but this has to apply to us too when we were omnis.

Leedsveg

[phiewe]

It is surprising, but some non-vegans don't even seem to realise that cows need to have calves in order to produce milk

This is soo true, my parents have struggled with the idea of me being vegan, even though I live away to study. But over Christmas a rather large debate came up and my Mum will not accept that a cow has to be pregnant to produce the milk.. Does anyone have any evidence from a website somewhere to prove that they do? You and I know its true but others find it difficult to accept!

Does anyone also have the problem that people will talk about things but if you show them evidence from a vegan website their immediate response is that the view is biased.. Well surely people who believe the ethics of eating animals and dairy to be wrong are going to be the ones to research it? If a Doctor turned around and provided you advice on how to best maintain one of your organs after researching it themself, would you turn around and say Im sorry your information is biased, do you have any unbiased evidence? Bah!!

[harpy]

Hi phiewe - there is an earlier thread here http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?19631-dairy-industry where I and others posted some links that may provide you with ammunition. I think I found some from DEFRA which as a government department can't be accused of having a vegan bias. Shout if you don't see what you need and I'll have a further dig.

I think it's true that cows can go on producing milk for a long time after having a calf but to maintain the required levels of "productivity" they need to have more calves. I don't think they will produce milk without having at least one calf unless there is some hormonal abnormality.

I suspect that part of the problem is that people just won't listen to this sort of information until they're in some sense "ready" for it - so (even if they're not as forceful as Cupid Stunt :) ) it would probably difficult to persuade them to take it in before that time. I think if you stick to being vegan for a while and show that you're happy and healthy with it, your family may listen a bit more later.

[Clueless Git]

Cupid. You are strong and forceful with your opinions and no doubt before you became a vegan, you were equally strong and forceful with your opinions. I think it's a bit rich though if/when we present ourselves as the victims and blame others because they didn't try hard enough to persuade us to go veggie/vegan. We expect omnis to take full responsibility for their actions but this has to apply to us too when we were omnis.

Leedsveg
Don't, in the nicest way, agree LV ...

I don't expect omnis to take responsibility for their actions.

I expect omnis to be brainwashed slaves to the meat eating habit exactly the same as I was.

[leedsveg]

Don't, in the nicest way, agree LV ...

I don't expect omnis to take responsibility for their actions.

I expect omnis to be brainwashed slaves to the meat eating habit exactly the same as I was.

Cupid. I'm afraid I just couldn't see you as a brain-washed victim nor could I imagine, in view of your personality, that veg-heads would have found you in your omni days, an 'easy convert'. So these veg-heads lacked compassion because they didn't try harder? Mm. I'd love to hear their side of the story!:umm:

lv

[leedsveg]

(add to last post because edit function not working)

Not trying to 'have a go' at you Cupid, by the way. I'm just desperately trying to follow the logic of what you're saying. Can I ask you if anybody at all in the whole animal food producing/eating business should feel/accept any sense of responsibilty for what they're doing or are they all brain-washed?

lv

[Clueless Git]

Cupid. I'm afraid I just couldn't see you as a brain-washed victim nor could I imagine, in view of your personality, that veg-heads would have found you in your omni days, an 'easy convert'. So these veg-heads lacked compassion because they didn't try harder? Mm. I'd love to hear their side of the story!:umm:

lv
I don't know what side of the story the few veg-heads I ever encountered (they were rare in our younger days?) would tell LV.

I do know this tho'; All the veg-heads I ever met, without exception, were easy enough for meat eaters to laugh at and make fun of and my personality then was not as it is now. (I was bullied virtualy non-stop as a child, phsycologicaly at home and physicaly outside). That alone, as I was terrified of becoming a 'target', was enough to overide anything 'gentle' veg-heads had to say. They were weak in my eyes and no ferkin' way was I was joining the weaklings again.

Probably posted this before ... I did not ever mean to become a veg-head. I accidentaly de-toxed during my super-fit days (I was in training for a 'knock down' competition, basicaly the nearest thing to legal bare knuckle fighting that existed at the time) and couldn't eat meat again. The toxicity of the stuff simply meant that my system rejected it (and the taste became disgusting beyond belief!) and that was that. No going back.

Now I was terrified again. All the bad things that I had been brainwashed into believing (mainly by exploitation of my fears) were going to happen. I was going to become weak. I was going to become ill. I was going to become marginalised and bulllied again.

None of that actualy came to be, obviously. What actualy happened was, paraphrasing the buddha, that the "great obstacle to my compassion" no longer existed. Without that the meat eater lies and bullying tactics that I had never been able to see before became clear as day. That pissed me off most mightily. The b'stards had 'had' me! Not only had I been 'bullied' without being aware but I had also been made a 'bully' of animals and had joined in with the bullying of those who did not eat them.

Anyways, the short of that self indulgent ramble is this: I am, unashamedly, a butt kicking vegan who takes on absolutely anyone, any place in any numbers. I make damn sure that anyone who takes me or any other veg*an on, mistaking the 'gentleness' of veg*ism for weakness, learns as thorough a lesson as it is within my personal abilities to give them.

That is exactly what I needed someone to do for me (but no one did do) when I was a brainwashed slave to the meat eating habit and so it is exactly what I do for others.


Not trying to 'have a go' at you Cupid, by the way. I'm just desperately trying to follow the logic of what you're saying. Can I ask you if anybody at all in the whole animal food producing/eating business should feel/accept any sense of responsibilty for what they're doing or are they all brain-washed?
Would have to do a 1,000+ page 'buddhist logic 101' to cover that fully most honourable matey ...

Bottom line is this though; Absolutely everyone in the whole animal food producing/eating business is a victim of delusion as to the root causes of their own suffering and to the qualities of mind that bring out about their own happiness.

By the very nature of delusion no one can be entirely responsible for their actions for as long as they are victims to it.

[leedsveg]

^^^

Thanks CS for taking the time to compose such a long reply. We obviously see some things in different ways and as the song says "You sat tom-ay-toe and I say tom-ah-toe". I'm aware that I've gone off topic in the last couple of days so I'll "call the whole thing off" and leave the thread now.:eek:

Leedsveg

[Festered]

Festered, are you saying I'm unable to think for myself?

Nope.

[Clueless Git]

Festered, are you saying I'm unable to think for myself?
I think I can think for myself ...

'Least I can't think of anything I haven't thought of yet ... :confused:

[fiamma]

Nope.

Short and sweet... :rolleyes:

But hang on... when I said

I don't think it's a case of level of intelligence, or lack of; some things are simply so ingrained in our society as being "normal" that we don't even question them

and you said

For me-intelligence encompasses questioning everything and not accepting things as okay just because the majority does them. Thinking for onself, in other words.

... I could have sworn you meant... oh, never mind. :devil:

[Festered]

You're a vegan? You've obviously not accepted things as okay?

[spartacus]

To all vegans:

If I keep a small goat or a heritage breed of dairy cows -- do you consider it wrong for me to tend them and milk them using traditional methods?

[Korn]

Why would you do that - since their milk is for their own babies - and since you don't need that milk? ;-)

[spartacus]

Why would you do that - since their milk is for their own babies - and since you don't need that milk? ;-)

1.) All mamal species are capable of producing excess milk. With proper feed and timing of milking goats and cows can and do produce enough milk to feed their young and also to supplu human needs.

2.) If one has an infant and the infants mother is not producing enough milk, there is a need.

3.) Soy production harms the environnment and directly contributes to deforestation of the Amazon rain forest and the biological desertification of the plains of North America.

4.) If one lives in a northern climate with lots of snow and forest -- a goat can live on what it browses in your own yard and surrounding woods. A soy or other vegan milk-like product would require the destruction of wildlife habitat as well as fossil fuels to grow, harvest, process and transport it.

5.) A milk substitute product for an infant in addition to the energy and land-use damage caused, costs a large amount of money for a family trying to live close to the land in the upper parts of rural North America.

[RubyDuby]

As an adult, would you milk your mom and drink her milk? Would you milk your dog and drink his milk?

[RubyDuby]

"his" should be "her" LOL

[spartacus]

As an adult, would you milk your mom and drink her milk? Would you milk your dog and drink his milk?

Well I have drunk my wife's while she nursed (unintentionally). ; )

If my mother was lactating and I needed milk for my baby -- sure no problem. It's called wet-nursing and is as old humankind.

It would not make sense to keep dogs for milk. There is no cost benefit as dogs eat meat. Goats browse on all sorts of plants. Cows graze grass. Cows and goats convert abundant, locally native, natural plant matter into protein needed for developing babies.

[Korn]

1.) All mamal species are capable of producing excess milk. With proper feed and timing of milking goats and cows can and do produce enough milk to feed their young and also to supplu human needs.
They can provide more milk than their babies nee, but that's not a reason to use their milk.


2.) If one has an infant and the infants mother is not producing enough milk, there is a need.
Your bringing up another 'special situation' here; human babies that can't get human milk from their babies. Most non-human milk consumed by humans isn't within such special situations, and babies don't need milk from goats or cow's. And: not only do I not want to keep animals in captivity and take their milk, nor do I need it - but there are other solutions that doesn't involve using milk from other species. No other animals use milk from other species, or drink it throughout their whole life, by the way.


3.) Soy production harms the environnment and directly contributes to deforestation of the Amazon rain forest and the biological desertification of the plains of North America.

Then don't use soy milk. I never do, and lots of vegans never use anything with soy in it. The possible bad effects of producing soy is no reason to keep a goat.



4.) If one lives in a northern climate with lots of snow and forest -- a goat can live on what it browses in your own yard and surrounding woods. A soy or other vegan milk-like product would require the destruction of wildlife habitat as well as fossil fuels to grow, harvest, process and transport it.
Again, even if a goat *can* survive in the snow - that, in itself, is no reason to use it's milk. A vegan group of humans wouldn't seek or settle in an area where they can't survive on plants. The reason some people live in areas where plants don't grow is either that they weren't vegans in the first place, that they arrived in a season where there was no snow, or that their ancestors arrived in this area when the climate was different/warm. Or they got stuck there!


5.) A milk substitute product for an infant in addition to the energy and land-use damage caused, costs a large amount of money for a family trying to live close to the land in the upper parts of rural North America.
[/QUOTE]
It seems that you try to focus on special situations which for some people would be seen as valid reasons to use animal products in order to survive. But what about all those who don't live under these conditions? Would you - if you aren't a baby, or a parent to a child in an area covered my snow 6 months a year (etc) live on a vegan diet? If not - why?

Producing nutrients for humans through raising animals and then killing the animals or using their milk seems like cruel waste of a lot of energy and land. The amount of wild animals - in most parts of the world - isn't enough to keep the local humans supplied with meat (etc) for more than a few weeks anyway, given the high number of animals and the low number of wild animals. So what was possible 10,000 years ago isn't possible today, even if you'd prefer such a lifestyle.

We don't need milk from goats or other animals. We need nutrients, and we can get them all without killing or harming any animals.

Since you think that there's nothing wrong with killing animals for food ("so long as the animals are treated respectfully"), of course you don't mind keeping them for milk (milk which you don't even need). The question isn't - the way I see it - if you think it's OK to kill an animal for food, but if the animal feels that it's "OK". It doesn't. And you don't need to kill it. I don't know if you feel an urge to kill animals, but even if you do - that alone isn't a valid reason to kill it.

With all due respect: I see that you - in multiple posts - have posted some of the same questions several times now. All these questions have already been discussed, several times, in other threads. And: threads discussing a multitude of topics often end up quite chaotic. So my humble suggestion is that instead of repeating your questions, please spend a day or two searching for our existing threads about the same topics, and come back afterwards if there are questions that aren't already addressed.

Regarding your interest in 'special situations', maybe these threads will interest you:
veganism in cold climates (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?3146-veganism-in-cold-climates)
Switching to a pre-modern diet (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?27627-Switching-to-a-pre-modern-diet)