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goodoldrebel
May 17th, 2011, 03:28 PM
When you think of how much a hassle it is to separate meat and dairy (plates, sinks etc.), isn't the intent of a kosher life style really a road to becoming a vegan. I think that's the case even though its an obvious connection, I still think that one comes to the revelation that the Torah with regard to the humane Judaic Dietary laws does lead one to veganism.

Its so easy to stay kosher if you're a vegan, why go through all the nonsense of separating meat and dairy when you can just as they say in Brooklyn 'fuggetaubutem'. I truly interpret the Torah in that respect as telling us to free ourselves from dependency on animal slaughter. Of course there is alot more to the dietary laws but this is a material facet.

Blueberries
May 17th, 2011, 03:44 PM
I'm not religious, and I don't know any Jewish people so it wouldn't be my area of expertise but I'm sure that there are people knocking about the forum who know more about connections between religion and veganism.

leedsveg
May 17th, 2011, 05:04 PM
Never heard of anyone going vegan by following the laws of kashrut.

Not really sure what is meant by "the intent of a kosher life style". Although I'm not myself a believer, I understand that Jews who follow the laws of kashrut, do so because they believe that the laws are God's unchallengeable commandments. What God's "intention" was in making such commandments, I don't think anybody really knows. Although some of the laws have been open to debate/interpretation, for example, how long someone who had eaten meat would need to wait before being permitted to drink (dairy) milk (8 hours I think?), it would seem that for God, an "omnivorous diet" was not only ok, it was the only diet. So it would seem to me that for a religious Jew to become a vegan with a "suitable for vegan diet", they would need to think and act outside the "box" that their religion has imposed.

Leedsveg:thumbsup:

goodoldrebel
May 17th, 2011, 05:25 PM
Leeds, the torah including its dietary laws does not encourage meat or dairy consumption, it discusses behavior when one consumes meat and dairy. The separation of meat and dairy is for a very humane rationale as is the slaughter process. The idea of kosher is that separation along with certain other criteria regarding non consumable animals etc. is a life style that has a humane characteristic towards other creatures and transcends into everyday behavior. It's not just about eating. I am not an original thinker in this regard as seeing the end result of all these humane procedures to respect animals and prevent their suffering as a road to veganism and general compassion for all beings.

leedsveg
May 17th, 2011, 06:01 PM
gor. As I'm not Jewish, not even a believer, it's probably best that I don't get involved in a long and heavy theological debate on the dietary aspects of Judaism. The atheism that was ok for Donald Watson, is good enough for me.

Leedsveg

goodoldrebel
May 17th, 2011, 06:05 PM
gor. As I'm not Jewish, not even a believer, it's probably best that I don't get involved in a long and heavy theological debate on the dietary aspects of Judaism. The atheism that was ok for Donald Watson, is good enough for me.

Leedsveg

Leeds, I hear you and the last thing you'll ever get from me is any form of prosylitizing. I was just expressing the connection of a kosher life style to veganism.

leedsveg
May 17th, 2011, 11:02 PM
Hi gor. I don't think any of the 3 major monotheistic religions are particularly vegan friendly but then again I would say that as an atheist vegan!:) As those well known philosophers Somon and Garfukel said of me (and probably everybody else) "A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest."

Good wishes :thumbsup:

Leedsveg

goodoldrebel
May 18th, 2011, 03:01 AM
Hi Leeds,

I hear yeh and for the most part it is a poor man's vodka believing in a supreme being dispensing justice. I was only connecting my interpretation of kosher & veganism. Beside those two deep thinkers you mentioned King Crimson might be fit in here with " I talk to the wind, my words are all carried away" - remember those guys? Sometimes I feel like that famous album cover.:cool:

Clueless Git
May 18th, 2011, 03:16 AM
I have never ever met a practising Jew who is vegan.

I would imagine that the Rabbis would discourage veganism. It is all the religious palava that makes food kosher which provides them with a significant part of both their role and pay.

Andy_T
May 18th, 2011, 09:35 AM
Let me put it another way - I don't know what religious jews think about whether god or whoever prescribes eatng meat, milk or veganism, BUT ...

.., it certainly could be used as a lever in campaigns to say ... "Go vegan - then you do not have to worry about kosher food any more".

Of course, in reality it is not so easy, as I think the kosher food also needs to be prepared in a kitchen that observes these rules, so you would need to eat at truly vegan restaurants. Or kosher restaurants serving vegan food.

Best regards,
Andy

leedsveg
May 18th, 2011, 11:07 AM
..it certainly could be used as a lever in campaigns to say ... "Go vegan - then you do not have to worry about kosher food any more".

Of course, in reality it is not so easy, as I think the kosher food also needs to be prepared in a kitchen that observes these rules, so you would need to eat at truly vegan restaurants. Or kosher restaurants serving vegan food.

Very good points Andy. Leavened bread during Passover would also be a no-no for Jewish vegans keeping kosher.

(On a different note, I have to say that the debate in the thread on whether Green & Blacks dark chocolate was suitable for vegans came across almost like rabbis discussing the Talmud. "On the other hand....")

Leedsveg

twinkle
May 18th, 2011, 08:37 PM
I know a vegan who has just been ordained as a rabbi, if that's any help to you? :)

goodoldrebel
May 18th, 2011, 11:50 PM
Interesting responses. Kosher dietary laws have humane reasons as the purpose for separation of dairy and meat. This overriding influence naturally compels one toward veganism as an extension of the humane concerns regarding meat and dairy consumption. One can stay kosher relatively easily as a vegan. In the big apple there are kosher vegan restaurants ( under rabbinical supervision) loaded with yarmulke wearing patrons. Again, personally I believe that the hassle of separating everything just to eat meat and dairy acts as a deterent to consumption of animals. Just my talmudic interpretation.

goodoldrebel
May 18th, 2011, 11:57 PM
Very good points Andy. Leavened bread during Passover would also be a no-no for Jewish vegans keeping kosher.

(On a different note, I have to say that the debate in the thread on whether Green & Blacks dark chocolate was suitable for vegans came across almost like rabbis discussing the Talmud. "On the other hand....")

Leedsveg

I've been to a few vegan Pesach seders and have had many at home. You can substitute out a shank bone and egg on the seder plate.

Unleavened bread has no conflict with veganism during the holidays

goodoldrebel
May 19th, 2011, 12:02 AM
I have never ever met a practising Jew who is vegan.

I would imagine that the Rabbis would discourage veganism. It is all the religious palava that makes food kosher which provides them with a significant part of both their role and pay.

Have you been to the big apple lately? Quite common and in the cold months many migrate to south florida so you have that life style there also. I'm referring to an orthodox and observant crowd.

goodoldrebel
May 19th, 2011, 12:09 AM
I know a vegan who has just been ordained as a rabbi, if that's any help to you? :)

Many thanks for interjecting this information as it is becoming more common to find vegans as Cantors and Rabbis

CoolCat
May 19th, 2011, 10:24 AM
I read an article by a rabbi claiming that duck feathers to produce L-Cystine should(/is?) no longer be considered an issue in the "is it kosher debate" (obviously he used the proper relgious terms, and a lot of them) because of the intense processing involved. I for one can not see a correlation between veganism and religion. Sure there are vegan jews, just like there are vegan muslims, vegan catholics, vegan protestants, vegan atheists, or vegan whatever... But I don't see preaching rules about seperating fooditems but not denying (except of course the problamatic specisism towards pigs [and the likes] some religions have) any of them as a stepping stone to veganism.

If people do become vegan out of convenience to easier follow the dietary rules (not using "restrictions" on purpose here) their religion imposes on them, then their view on the ethics of our (ab)use of animals doesn't change and them being vegan has no meaning from an ethical/abolitionist vegan point of view. Chances are that if a rabbi finds another "loophole" to sanction non-vegan fooditem x they would easily incorporate that back into their diet.

Of course there are religious ethical/abolitionist vegans as well, and those wouldn't listen to the argumentation for non-vegan fooditem x because their motivations are obvious not only motivated by their religion. Or at least not the interpretation of their religion that is mainstream.

Lisey_duck
May 19th, 2011, 11:46 AM
This guy came up with some good stuff, he's not blogging any more but it's still up as an archive: http://heebnvegan.blogspot.com/
And this site seems pretty comprehensive: http://www.shalomveg.com/

goodoldrebel
May 19th, 2011, 02:00 PM
This guy came up with some good stuff, he's not blogging any more but it's still up as an archive: http://heebnvegan.blogspot.com/
And this site seems pretty comprehensive: http://www.shalomveg.com/


Thanks so much for this information. shalomveg.com is a great web site and can enlighten some of those here. A great article to read is 'Animal slavery and the Holocaust".

goodoldrebel
May 19th, 2011, 02:05 PM
There are many connections that can be made between the Jewish holiday of Yom Kippur and vegetarianism:

On Yom Kippur, Jews pray to a "compassionate G-d", who compassionately remembers His creatures for life. Yet, there is little compassion related to modern intensive livestock agriculture (factory farming), which involves the cruel treatment and slaughter of over 9 billion farm animals in 1997 alone in the United States.

One of the most important messages of Yom Kippur and the preceding days is the importance of teshuvah, of turning away from sinful ways, from apathy, from a lack of compassion and sensitivity, and returning to Jewish values ideals, and mitzvot. Vegetarianism is also a way of making a significant turn, away from a diet that has many harmful effects to one that is consistent with Jewish mandates to take care of our health, treat animals kindly, protect the environment, conserve natural resources, help the hungry, and seek and pursue peace.

Yom Kippur is a time for reflection and soul searching, a time to consider changes in one's way of life, a time to make decisions for improvement. Hence, it is an excellent time to switch to a diet that has so many personal and societal benefits.

Yom Kippur is the day of atonement, a day of being, in effect, at-one with G-d. One way to be more at-one with God is by adopting a plant-based diet, and thereby not harming animals, since "G-d's tender mercies are over all of His creatures". (Psalm 145:9)


On Yom Kippur, Jews are forbidden to wear leather shoes. One reason is that it is not considered proper to plead for compassion when one has not shown compassion to the creatures of G-d, whose concern extends to all of His creatures.

Rabbi Israel Salanter, one of the most distinguished Orthodox Rabbis of the nineteenth century, failed to appear one Yom Kippur eve in time for the sacred Kol Nidre Prayer. His congregation became concerned, for it was inconceivable that their saintly rabbi would be absent or late on this very holy day. They sent a search party to look for him. After much time, their rabbi was found in a Gentile neighbor's barn. On his way to the synagogue, Rabbi Salanter had come upon one of the neighbor's calves, lost and tangled in the brush. Seeing the animal in distress, he freed him and led him home. His act of compassion represented the rabbi's prayers on that Yom Kippur evening.

In summary, a shift to vegetarianism is an important way to do teshuvah, to turn away from a diet that is harmful in many ways to one that is in accord with the many significant teachings and values that Yom Kippur represents.

Torah verse below indicates, G-d's initial intention was that people be vegetarians.
And G-d said: "Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree that has seed-yielding fruit -- to you it shall be for food." Genesis 1:29

CoolCat
May 19th, 2011, 06:04 PM
^ I'm sorry but a temporary shift (as I assume after the holiday [most] people will shift back), or a partial one (vegetarianism vs veganism) is not something I can interpret as a path towards veganism. If they wanted people to be vegan they could just flat out dictate it as such (the beauty of religion?) by condemning using animals and not leave it open for interpretation or just make it more difficult to be omni, and it wouldn't be limited to only a certain time of the year where you can quickly make up for your sins of the past year. That because of period x only z amount of animals are abused or are violated to a "lesser" degree rather than the y amount that would have been is not something of significance. In a welfarist point of view that would be something that is applauded of course, but that is not where I'm at. If religion would lead to veganism for the right reasons then that is a good thing, but I can't see it happening on masse (or it would already have happened by now?). We have to remember that religion is rooted in the past. A world with far less humans on it and them living in a less invasive way. Of course there would have been animal abuse back then but it wouldn't have happened to todays extend where it is on a mind blowing scale and hidden behind factory walls. Animals would have been of great significance and key to ones survival back then, now people just get insurance and if their farm burns down killing 20.000 animals they just put in a claim. The world has changed in the last 100yrs more than it ever did before, and where most religions have been updated somewhat in the past it would be blasphemy if you would suggest a rewrite today. Religion tries to apply old text in an immutable way to today's world instead of asking what the people who wrote the text would think of our ways now. I for one can't help but think they would be appalled by the state we are in.

leedsveg
May 19th, 2011, 09:00 PM
If people do become vegan out of convenience to easier follow the dietary rules (not using "restrictions" on purpose here) their religion imposes on them, then their view on the ethics of our (ab)use of animals doesn't change and them being vegan has no meaning from an ethical/abolitionist vegan point of view. Chances are that if a rabbi finds another "loophole" to sanction non-vegan fooditem x they would easily incorporate that back into their diet.

Well put CoolCat.:thumbsup:

lv

hiddenfromview
Jun 22nd, 2011, 10:50 PM
Ok, so this is going to be a controversial reply. Whilst there are vegans of all persuasions and diversity can only be a good thing, I don't think veganism and Judaism/Islam/Christianity are compatible. Of course, this would only apply to Orthodox Judaism, not those who are secular cultural Jews (I'm not in a position to discuss if Jews are a religious or cultural group).
Firstly, according to (Orthodox) Judaism, there are various commands which are non-vegan - to offer animals to God to at Soloman's Temple, to wear the phylacteries (leather boxes) during prayer (admittedly a later addition since the destruction of the Temple) and so on. Perhaps the greatest thing which demonstrates this is the fact that Judaism permits the eating of meat. How can you be a vegan, but still think that eating meat is morally acceptable?
According to Islam, one can be a vegan or vegetarian, but they are NOT allowed to regard the eating meat as morally wrong, or impermissible.

Now, I would do everything to persuade anyone to become vegan, and would use any argument within a person's religion or ideology (for example; healthy living) to persuade them to become vegan, because as a vegan we do not want animals to be murdered or exploited. I'd rather a Jew/Muslim/Christian be a vegan and believe that eating animals is ok, rather than be a meat eater. But the ideologies are definitely not compatible (this only applies to those who believe that Judaism is a religion).

Andy_T
Jun 23rd, 2011, 10:46 AM
Hello hiddenfromview,

I do not see it as difficult as you do. I certainly would not consider it 'incompatible', if a belief accepts some things that are not vegan - you do not HAVE to engage in those, you CAN. I know a lot of muslims who consider themselves very devout, although they only have one wife (and you ARE ALLOWED - theoretically - to have more than one wife if you are a muslim).

If somebody tells you that he can not go vegan, because his religion permits him to eat meat, well, then s/he is either more devout than I personally consider appropriate or using this as a pretext to explain why s/he still likes to continue to eat meat...

And if you discuss with a person who says that s/he can not go vegan because they HAVE to offer animals as sacrifice in Solomon's temple or wear some leather boxes, well, in that case your arguing might be in vain anyway ;-)

Best regards,
Andy

goodoldrebel
Jun 23rd, 2011, 11:38 PM
Ok, so this is going to be a controversial reply. Whilst there are vegans of all persuasions and diversity can only be a good thing, I don't think veganism and Judaism/Islam/Christianity are compatible. Of course, this would only apply to Orthodox Judaism, not those who are secular cultural Jews (I'm not in a position to discuss if Jews are a religious or cultural group).
Firstly, according to (Orthodox) Judaism, there are various commands which are non-vegan - to offer animals to God to at Soloman's Temple, to wear the phylacteries (leather boxes) during prayer (admittedly a later addition since the destruction of the Temple) and so on. Perhaps the greatest thing which demonstrates this is the fact that Judaism permits the eating of meat. How can you be a vegan, but still think that eating meat is morally acceptable?
According to Islam, one can be a vegan or vegetarian, but they are NOT allowed to regard the eating meat as morally wrong, or impermissible.

Now, I would do everything to persuade anyone to become vegan, and would use any argument within a person's religion or ideology (for example; healthy living) to persuade them to become vegan, because as a vegan we do not want animals to be murdered or exploited. I'd rather a Jew/Muslim/Christian be a vegan and believe that eating animals is ok, rather than be a meat eater. But the ideologies are definitely not compatible (this only applies to those who believe that Judaism is a religion).

I think that Genesis 1:29 has more clarity than the idea of animal sacrifices and leather garb. Any Talmudic interpretation of the following?

Again I repeat: Torah verse below indicates, G-d's initial intention was that people be vegetarians.
And G-d said: "Behold, I have given you every herb yielding seed which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree that has seed-yielding fruit -- to you it shall be for food." Genesis 1:29