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Korn
Jul 27th, 2011, 12:56 PM
A topic that often comes up in various threads is how to deal with kids when only one of the parents are vegans, and how vegan parents respond to question about why we don't give our kids animal products.

Some of these questions have to do with health, in which case other, similar question would be relevant as well: what do we answer if our children grow up and have heath problems that are commonly brought up with consumption of animal products? What would one say, for instance, if a child later gets cancer and finds some of these (http://www.veganforum.com/forums/showthread.php?27770-20-30-types-of-cancer-and-animal-products-(eggs-fish-milk-meat)) scientific reports, and asks why s/he was raised on all these animal products?

In a world with so much violence it seems essential to bring up a child in a way where not harming others becomes a natural part of their lives, and something which is focused on as soon as it's relevant to do so. If a child is used to respect chicken and fish and cats and cows, it seems obvious to me that the also will respect members of their own species.

What if a vegan falls in love with someone who is a heavy meat eater? Or - a situation that could be even more confusing - what if one of the partners go vegan after they have moved together and have children?

There are some hundred millions on this planet which find eating meat unethical. I don't think anyone finds it unethical to eat an apple. This seems obvious, but is, IMHO, a rather essential element in this context.

So, if She is a vegan and He is not, both are OK with eating apples. Does any of the parts find it unethical to *not* eat apples? Probably not. One of them finds it unethical to eat animal products, the other one doesn't have a personal problem with doing that, and (of course) like beef etc.

The meat eater isn't against eating plants. But is he against not eating meat? He certainly can't find anything wrong with not harming animals, which means that the problem, if there is one, most likely has to do with the health aspect of it all. Most of us are raised to assume that we need animal products for health reasons, and we can't take it for granted that our partners automatically will let go of this assumption only because they like us.

If I were a vegan who didn't eat organic food, and had a partner who did, I wouldn't have anything against feeding our child on organic food, as long as the food didn't collide with my ethical viewpoints and what I know about nutrition. But the question is - why wold a meat eater have anything against having their child being raised on a vegan diet? If he's not against eating apples, and can't prove the thousands of dietitians who approve vegan food as a good choice for children wrong, why would he have anything against telling his partner that although he isn't vegan, he doesn't have a problem with raising the child as a vegan since his partner wants it?


The next question is tricky, because I'm a vegan: what if I was not a vegan, and had a child with a vegan partner who wanted us to raise the kid on a vegan diet? The answer is of course easy for me, because I'm vegan and biased: I would tell myself and the child and others that I'm not against animal products, but my partners is, and I'm fine with raising the kid as a vegan because I don't see eating vegan as something I find unethical or unhealthy.

There are many types of diets, and there are many many variations of how and what vegans think and eat.

Some examples:
A) Macrobiotic vegans, who eat only what's available in their own area, adjusted to the season they live in.
B) Organic-oriented vegans, who always try to avoid anything which has been exposed to synthetic fertilizers etc.
C) Fruitarians.
D) Raw fooders.
E) Vegans with a very high focus on various supplements and natural/unnaturlal ways to always have the optimum levels of all known nutrients.
F) Vegans who more or less only focus on the ethical aspect of their diet, and pay little attention B12 and other nutrients other vegans insist that vegans in our denaturalized world need to focus on.
G) People who may not agree fully in being vegan, but who eat varied, plant based food (only), and complements when supplements they find necessary (just like they did before they became vegans)., either based on general advice or taking blood tests etc.
H) Vegans who prefer local, organic food but also eat other (vegan) food.
And so on...

A similar list can be made for meat eaters:
A) Plain meat eaters, who also eats plants (most do) but never supplements.
B) People on an Atkins diet.
C) People who follow the blood type theory.
D) Raw fooders who also include meat.
E) Macrobiotic people who aren't vegans or vegetarians.
F) People who eat standard food, but go for organic and local food whenever possible
G) People who live according to what some of our ancestors lived on (in certain periods); Paleo etc.

Such lists could be very long: Hallelujah Diet, South Beach Diet, The Kind Diet, The Glycemic Index Diet, people who follow McDoughalls plans, Mediterranean Diet, Low Carb, Fresh Diet, the Andrew Weil diet, the Dr. Fuhrman diet and about 100 more options....

If two people raise a child together and make two short lists of what each of them are willing to accept, would there be any reason to not agree upon a choice that both of them see as healthy choices (and doesn't clash with their ethical perspective)? Would anyone want to say to the other person that even if they see the diet they choose as acceptable both from a health and ethical perspective, they still can't agree to raise their children on such a diet? If they both look at each others list, and end up with one person being OK with A, B, C and F, and the other one is OK with C, E and G, C is what they have in common.

Even if it's only one of the diets both them can accept, it seems to me that there is no problem - at least in theory. But again: I'm of course biased and may simplify it. :) Old habits, pride and more could of course make it tricky, initially, to agree in practice, and not only in theory. But that's a different problem.

PS - regarding the thread title - there is no existing "ABC theory". :) I should probably rename it, to "LCD theory" (Lowest Common Denominator)... because that's what it's about. :)

Johnstuff
Jul 27th, 2011, 01:26 PM
Perhaps it's just the old chesnut that non vegans basically don't like veganism because deep down they know it's right and feel bad about what they do.
I sort of upset my mum yesterday talking about veganism because she agrees with me, ie. she has doubt in her mind that killing animals is ok. I said "if there is doubt then why not avoid animal products, if later that doubt is gone you can eat animal products again and what have you lost?" she couldn't really answer so I had to drop it so as not to upset her. I suspect the real reason she won't give up animal products is peer pressure form her husband and family.

Dunno really...

kikifromscotland
Jul 30th, 2011, 10:37 AM
In my experience the reason put forward by non-veg partners of vegans for not raising the kids as vegan is often that they don't want the child to be bullied/ left out. My boyfriend for example will (reluctantly) agree with our potential future children being 100% vegan at home and in packed lunches etc but would like them to be vegetarian at children's parties or when eating out with friends so they don't have to stand out by not being able to share a pizza because they can't eat cheese, or having to bring along their own cake rather than eating birthday cake at a party, etc. I kind of agree with him in a way- that is, I do think it would be much easier and less stressful for children to be vegetarian when interacting with society- it's just that I think that the animals right not to suffer outweighs that. Since he doesn't agree with not eating meat, he thinks it's more important to make life simple for the children. It's an ongoing debate as I have said I will not accept anything less than a commitment to jointly raise 100% vegan 100% of the time until they are old enough to choose for themselves (or else I won't have children with him) but he feels he is making a compromise where he is giving way a lot and I should give way a little.

What I am thinking though is that in the situations he is envisaging the children would probably be old enough to choose for themselves by that point anyway, so I'm not sure if the whole thing is moot. It's a few years away at any rate.

Korn
Jul 30th, 2011, 02:24 PM
In my experience the reason put forward by non-veg partners of vegans for not raising the kids as vegan is often that they don't want the child to be bullied/ left out.
My experience is that kids aren't at all bullied if they are vegans, and one bonus effect, IMO, of having a lifestyle or diet which isn't mainstream is that children learn that it's OK to have different viewpoints than others.

The more people who avoid telling others that they there's certain stuff they don't eat, the longer it will take for people who invite others to include the fact that everybody they know (or their kids) kay not eat the same stuff they eat.

It may be easier, socially, to eat hot dogs and beef than not doing it, and easier to eat cheese on a pizza than ask if they could make a small part of the pizza without cheese. But I do think that it will help the overall situation (and vegans and vegan kids in the future) if more people actually just say that they don't eat (or tolerate, if the have lactose intolerance or milk allergy) dairy products. There are so many people now who avoid gluten, milk, meat etc that I think it's time for all those who eat 100% mainstream food to consider spending a few minutes on thinking of alternatives. After all, all that's needed to make a lacto-vegetarian pizza vegan, is to not put cheese on a few slices... which in most cases wont take any extra time at all.

But a few people are of course very ignorant. I've had one occasion when someone I didn't know very well - but who knew that we didn't eat any animal products - 'assumed' that it's OK to serve us a pizza with meat and cheese. I was surprised, because it's more or less like saying "I know that you don't eat meat, but hope you still eat meat when it's more convenient for others?"...


he doesn't agree with not eating meat
But does he think that it's wrong or unhealthy for a child to eat vegan food? It certainly is more convenient and easy, short term, to ignore the ethical aspect of our choices, but many important choices in life actually has an element of something that may take a little time to get used to (like eg. quitting smoking or eating more healthy food), but I think it's kind of... lazy (I can call it that because I've been there, done that :) ) to skip every potential change or lifestyle choice which requires some personal involvement.

But we can't, of course, force others to behave the way we ideally would want them to.

Clueless Git
Jul 31st, 2011, 10:39 AM
My experience is that kids aren't at all bullied if they are vegans ..
Lo Korn,

I raised my three children, and my daughter has now raised my grand daughter, as 'from birth' vegetarians.

My experience is that the bullying never ends.


.. and one bonus effect, IMO, of having a lifestyle or diet which isn't mainstream is that children learn that it's OK to have different viewpoints than others.

From the same experience I would say that that one factor is a good enough reason to raise children as veg*ans all on it's own.



Not quite on topic, but of possible interest ..

'Converts' have their own direct personal experience of the mindset of meat eaters to fall back on when dealing with people who eat meat.

A 'from birth' veg*an has no such direct personal experience to call upon when dealing with meat eaters at all.

Risker
Jul 31st, 2011, 01:01 PM
I spent most of my school life as a vegetarian and didn't get bullied for it. IMHO bullies don't do it for a reason, they find a reason.

Regardless, a few personal experiences are not enough to make an informed judgement on this subject.

twinkle
Jul 31st, 2011, 03:43 PM
I also spent most of my school life as a vegetarian. I wasn't bullied specifically for that. I was bullied in general in my early school years and one person once threw the filling of a pork pie at my head but he had a LOT of problems and I ended up feeling sorry for him. I don't remember being vegetarian being a problem in general in terms of popularity or otherwise, I had plenty of friends, including the occasional other vegetarian but mostly not. I also had a vegan school friend and she didn't remotely get bullied for it, and never had any problems to do with that as far as I could see.

I'd like to have gone to the children's parties Korn has attended where there was homemade pizza! I think any party I've been to with pizza here when I was a child relied on supermarket pizzas which were covered with cheese (and most likely ham as well).