"Killing" plants

[bj355]

Well, I was thinking about the ethics of being a vegan. We're protecting animals, but killing plants. The harvesting of these plants kills animals.

That's not really my point though. Both plants and animals are living. We have more compassion for the killing of animals than plants. However, I'm starting to think it is really just a bias toward a more similar being. Now, I'm sure some of you will say that plants can't think, etc. etc. But when it comes down to it, that's our biased minds with the opinion that if something isn't like us (that it has the ability to think) it isn't as valuable or important.

I was also thinking about the amount of death to plants vs. the amount of death to meat. A cow has about 2000 lbs. of meat. I can guarantee you that most plants aren't that heavy.

Any thoughts?

[CoolCat]

To get a 2000 lbs. cow you will have to stuff her with much more plants than we would eat directly.

[missbettie]

so thats something that meat eaters say, since thats the area you put this post in correct? sheesh...

[Risker]

Now, I'm sure some of you will say that plants can't think, etc. etc. But when it comes down to it, that's our biased minds with the opinion that if something isn't like us (that it has the ability to think) it isn't as valuable or important.

No, that's called science. The issue is the ability to suffer, not to think. Plants do not have brains or central nervous systems, there is no evidence that they are capable of feeling, thinking or suffering.

[maggielassie]

I understand that plants have a life too, but people kill lots more lives by eating the animals who eat the plants. And, yes, I do believe animals can suffer and plants can't. The greenery does not have a nervous system.

[Korn]

people kill lots more lives by eating the animals who eat the plants.
Yes - the maths of this is quite simple: meat eating humans eat almost exclusively plant eating animals. And since it takes a lot of plants to raise a cow, one will 'kill' a lot more plants by eating a cow than by eating plants.

Having said that, I don't think anyone really is worried about 'killing' plants. The only time this pseudo-argument comes up is when someone tries to find an argument living on a plant based diet eating plants. The irony of this is that one of the most known arguments against eating meat has been that it takes a lot more land (and therefore plants) to produce a meat based diet than it takes to produce plant based food.



That's not really my point though. But your main point is just as invalid, because whether you are concerned about 'living', 'suffering' or just counting lbs. of meat, there will always me more plants 'killed' if you want to survive on a meat based diet instead of a plant based diet. If plants actually could feel the same way we do, or think, of would have the will (and capacity) to escape from someone who tried to eat them - the best way to reduce all that suffering etc would be to eat plants instead of eating meat, again - because converting plants to meat take a lot of... plants!

There are various theories about how much extra land it takes to produce meat compared with producing eatable plants, but AFAIK, everyone who have looked into this agree that it takes at least twice as much land - due to all the plants an animal needs in order to grow. That would be twice as much suffering (according to those who claim that they are worried about plants being hurt when we eat them).

[Andy_T]

Very simple solution, if it really troubles you - become a fruitarian. To eat apples, bananas, pears, nuts, grains, you do not need to 'kill' the plants.
They give those up freely and are interested in you consuming them (and later spreading the seeds, although that might not work out thanks to our current standards of sanitation).

Best regards,
Andy

[harpy]

Good idea Andy - I think I would find fruitarianism quite hard, personally, but for a life-long vegan it might be easier :)

[vegandingo]

Well, I was thinking about the ethics of being a vegan. We're protecting animals, but killing plants. The harvesting of these plants kills animals.

Any thoughts?

I am unsure what you are getting at. If you are saying that is is equally unethical to kill both plants and animals and therefore eating animals is no more unethical than eating plants then I would say that you need to look into yourself to see why you are a vegan.

Life is a matter of making choices and compromises. If we did not eat at all then we would greatly minimise the suffering we cause to other living beings. The Jains are known to wear face masks to prevent microbes from being inhaled. They also sweep the path before they take each step in order to avoid stepping on insects.

Even by eating fruits we crush the seeds which arguably are living beings waiting to sprout.

Think over the reasons why you are now a vegan and decide for yourself if it is less harmful than eating animals.

Personally, I believe that we have an inherent food quota that is different to the quota allowance of a tiger or a hyena. I have never seen a person run down an antelope and rip it apart with their teeth, nor have I seen a tiger dig up a carrot and blissfully crunch away.

Don't fret over our food quota and put away the guilt.

[pat sommer]

uhhh, anyone else smell troll?

[hedge]

It has been proven that plants react to their surroundings and respond to stimuli, such as light and touch, but whether they feel pain is highly improbable.
Why?
Because they lack the means of escaping that pain.
Plants evolved long before animals, so doesn't it make sense, from a self preservation point of view, that plants would have evolved over time to be able to flee pain and danger?

[vegandingo]

uhhh, anyone else smell troll?Excuse me? Are you referring to my post? If so, would you care to explain how you see my advice to look within and understand why someone chooses to be a vegan is trolling?

Being vegan, for myself, is not because of fashion or because I want to be seen as being trendy. We have a choice each day to live according to our understanding of the Universe and how we fit into the Great Scheme.

I admit that I am a relative newcomer to the vegan lifestyle as I have only been vegan for the last twelve years. It took me a long time for me to go from being vegetarian since 1973 to becoming a vegan.

Maybe it's different for you?

[hedge]

I think pat was referring to the original poster vegandingo. But troll or not (and I personally don't think the original poster is trolling) it is a good topic for discussion.

[vegandingo]

I think pat was referring to the original poster vegandingo. But troll or not (and I personally don't think the original poster is trolling) it is a good topic for discussion.You are probably right. Maybe it was directed at the OP.

Troll or otherwise, asking sincere questions is always a good thing. Even insincere questions stimulate discussion, or has the potential to.

If the OP has indeed been a vegan since birth then there is the possibility that being vegan has become too routine.

[Korn]

If the OP has indeed been a vegan since birth then there is the possibility that being vegan has become too routine.
...or always was a routine? If someone is forced to eat vegan food since birth, questioning the habit's they have lived with forever can't be a bad thing.

Troll or not, we know that most trolls explode if they are exposed to light, so I'm not sleepless over the occasional trolls we may have. :)

[vegandingo]

...or always was a routine? If someone is forced to eat vegan food since birth, questioning the habit's they have lived with forever can't be a bad thing.

Troll or not, we know that most trolls explode if they are exposed to light, so I'm not sleepless over the occasional trolls we may have. :)

Forced is a matter of perception. My children are being raised as vegans. I know that some people believe that unless I offer them meat then they do not have a choice. I reply that if I give them meat before they understand what it is I am not giving them a choice.

Thankfully, my children are extremely healthy and strong, mentally and physically. It does make me chuckle when my three year old son tells a meat eater to stop eating animals.

Being a parent means that I and my wife must make choices for our children until they are able to make their own choices in a meaningful and mature way.

Trolls are potential vegans. If they did not have questions in their minds then they would not be bothered to come and poke fun.

I don't think that the OP is a troll. If I am wrong then there is no harm done.

[Korn]

Forced is a matter of perception.


Yes, it often is.

Parents simply have to make some decisions for their kids (and do it all the time whether they are aware of it or not), and that certainly doesn't necessarily equal 'forcing' them into something.

I'm of course totally against giving meat to kids. But IMHO there are different ways of not doing that - at least when they are old enough to communicate about it. It's a major difference between saying 'You are not allowed to eat meat' and 'It's wrong for me to spend money on food which both means that animals will suffer and which often are associated those eating it will have higher chance of getting certain illnesses'. Children - even young kids - easily understand that more 'freedom' for someone often means reduced freedom for someone else.


My children are being raised as vegans. I know that some people believe that unless I offer them meat then they do not have a choice. I reply that if I give them meat before they understand what it is I am not giving them a choice.
I agree, and since practically nobody are against eating plants (including meat eaters), and lots of people are against eating meat, at least we aren't 'forcing' our kids to eat something they later in life potentially will be against, as long as the diet is healthy.

[pat sommer]

If I were a silly teenager with nothing else to do but to see who would bite at my provocative question, then, I might have come up with something a little more compelling than post #1.

If anyone actually enjoys debating the merits of the old-chestnut "but plants...", by all means, carry on.

I did check first the profile to see if poster joined just for this thread... No harm as was said. Keeping us on our toes.

[missbettie]

^ I agree.

[Gwydion]

Yup.

PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

:p

[leedsveg]

PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

I DISAGREE. FEED THEM TO THE TRIFFIDS!

lv:rollseyes_ani:

[Korn]

Short version:
There are cases where we can be 100% sure that a new poster is a troll - and will have their account deactivated + posts removed. The best solution, in my opinion, is that we in all other cases treat them as if they are not (plus consider reporting them as possible trolls).



Longer version: Although my first response, when I saw this thread, was that the poster may actually just be a troll, "silly teenagers' should also feel welcome here. IMO it's a lot better to explain why you think someone's reasoning doesn't make any sense than to call them stupid.

Some questions will pop up again and again - for years, not only because lots of new people go vegan every year - but also because the amount of kids who grow up in a family which doesn't eat meat is increasing.

I believe that the 'Don't eat meat because then you'll kill a lot of plants'-argument usually isn't something someone just comes up with all by themselves. But meat eaters sometimes produce arguments only to try to defend or justify their own meat eating. In some cases, we may see members who post these 'arguments' as if they were their own, only to get some counter-arguments.

*Many* of the "arguments" I've heard pro eating meat seems to have been produced in moments of intellectual/emotional coma. I can't think of any valid reason to eat meat at all, unless possibly in certain extreme situations most of us never will come across. But it's a major difference between saying that an argument makes no sense and to tell someone that he is stupid or silly.

We actually do welcome "silly questions" here, and usually point newcomers to threads where these things already have been discussed.

If meat eaters are silly, almost all of us have been silly (and still are, in many situations). And... being raised on a meat-free diet may mean that one doesn't know much about arguments pro/con eating meat, because one never had to make a choice.

I once were in a city where eating/selling meat etc. was forbidden. If I would have asked a young teenager there why he doesn't eat meat, or presented some of the classical pro-meat "arguments" for them, I'm sure many of them wouldn't always have a good counter-argument ready. So... if you have problems with silly pro-meat arguments, try to avoid these threads or make sure you avoid personal attacks if you discuss with them on this board. Or use the Report-button.

We could have removed all such threads and banned all posters who came up with pro-meat arguments, but instead we have a subforum called "Vegan/non-vegan discussions". When you are logged in, you won't see the threads in that section unless you subscribe to a permission group which allows to to do so. I'm moving this thread over to that section soon, because even if the poster may be a lifelong vegan, the argument he has posted is posted as a pro-meat argument.


The harvesting of these plants kills animals.
That's also a topic which has been brought up a few times... search for existing threads and you'll find out how other members have responded to it.

[sandra]

Hi bj355, I look forward to hearing your views on what everyone has said. :)
So...... you've been a vegan all your life, may I ask how many years that has been or is that too rude a question? :)

[pat sommer]

Your judgement Korn, was sound as usual. Just wanted to know if I was the only troll sniffer.
They are welcome to try; just don't feed them:p

[sandra]

Hi bj355, I look forward to hearing your views on what everyone has said. :)
So...... you've been a vegan all your life, may I ask how many years that has been or is that too rude a question? :)

I wasn't holding my breath for a reply to my above post, but the lack of a response has confirmed what I thought all along anyway. :)